Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

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Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:04 pm

One thing I've noticed about Vegeta throughout the Dragon Ball revival is that Vegeta is consistently written as more ruthless, pragmatic and morally ambiguous under Toriyama's direct pen than Toyotaro's and Toei's writing staff. While the main characters being "heroed-up" for the animated adaptations is certainly nothing new, the conversation primarily focuses on Goku's differences in characterisation. Vegeta certainly gets the second most, but this is one aspect that seems to get overlooked.

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First off, let's discuss Resurrection 'F'. There's the infamous scene of Vegeta seemingly being almost tempted by Freeza's offer of making him Supreme Commander of the Freeza Force, or whatever the title was. While Vegeta quickly makes it clear that he fully intends to turn Freeza into mincemeat, that moment of hesitation and him ominously approaching Goku, combined with the prior scene of him suddenly attacking Goku mid-fight, would almost give a less-initiated audience some pause. He also justifies his relationship to Goku rather cruelly, saying that he only keeps the moron around because he needs him to get stronger, and later claims that he'd rather die than team up with Goku again. Yeah yeah, Vegeta's a yandere, but still... Harsh.

Then he dispatches Freeza swiftly, with no wasted movement or unnecessary showboating. He just goes straight for the kill.

This contrasts with the anime adaptation, which sees Vegeta refuse to court Freeza's ridiculous job offer and play around with Freeza in a slightly more Goku-esque fashion. The one counter to this would probably be him instantly killing Ginyu with a sadistic smile, but considering Ginyu's annoying signature ability (plus the fact that, ya know, he's not s'posed to be in this story), it was a strategically justified move.

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Next, we move to Super: Broly. Vegeta comes off as a real asshole in this movie, though he does spit facts occasionally. We're first introduced to him angrily chewing out Goku for being dumb enough to trust Freeza, with the events of the Tournament of Power having evidently done nothing to improve Vegeta's opinion of Freeza in the slightest. Vegeta starts borderline frothing at the mouth by the end of his rant, enough that Goku gets offended by it for once.

That's the tip of the iceberg. Well, there is a lot of ice in this movie. When confronted by the existence of yet more Saiyans that survived the genocide, how does the proud Prince of All Saiyans react? With curiosity? Gratitude? Disbelief? Nope. He once again reiterates that he doesn't care about the fate of the Saiyans and wants nothing to do with them. Oh, those guys are Saiyans? Yeah, whatever, we've already met Tarble.

While he finds some enjoyment in his fight with Broly, as soon as Broly starts offering significant resistance, Vegeta goes Super Saiyan God and uses excessive force seemingly with the intent to kill, which Goku loudly objects to. Vegeta's instinct to finish Broly off was ultimately a wise move, since the barbarian's ridiculously huge growth over the course of a ten minute melee represented a dangerous threat, but Vegeta could've gone straight to Blue and killed Broly quickly and painlessly if that were the case. Contrast this with Goku's perceptive, compassionate approach which nearly ends the fight. Vegeta's killer instinct seems to transfer to Gogeta, who also shows a barbaric side with no mercy or empathy.

Gogeta naturally leads us to the Fusion Dance practice scene, which many fans take issue with as it presents Vegeta as babyishly resistant to the idea of fusing, mainly because he finds the poses ridiculous, the same justification he gave against doing it way back in the Buu arc. Still one of the funniest scenes in the movie, but I can see where they're coming from. At this point in the Super sub-franchise, Vegeta has shown willingness to fuse when needed (with some resistance, and so long as it doesn't involve the stupid poses) and generally humiliate himself (the Bingo Dance) for the greater good. GT famously saw Vegeta suggest the idea of Fusion to Goku, showing his character growth. Vegeta was also willing to fuse to beat Janemba. Neither story may be "canon" to the current series, but they showed audiences Vegeta's mature side as Super frequently does, so seeing him moan about Fusion now of all times understandably comes off as an annoying regression to some.

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All this leads me to believe that Toriyama has a very specific conception of Vegeta's character when writing him. Whereas other writers like showing Vegeta's growth and compassion, Toriyama seems to like emphasising Vegeta's residual mercilessness and selfishness from his Badman days. Toriyama's Vegeta may be a better guy than he was, but he'll still murk your arse without a second's hesitation, and he's less willing to drag fights out than Goku if they can be ended quickly. As has been explained in interviews, Toriyama was always ambivalent to the idea of Goku and Vegeta fusing again after the Buu arc, as he believes their clashing personalities wouldn't allow for it. It was only thanks to some pressure from Toyotaro that he relented in bringing back Vegetto, and seemingly again with Gogeta (that time from his editors). Like it or lump it, Fusion is one of the biggest draws of the franchise and as the saying goes: money talks, bullshit walks.

Even Toyotaro, Toriyama's closest collaborator in the Super project, seems to give Vegeta more of a tepid, compassionate personality, which is more evident in his personal arc throughout the war against Moro, though we can still only speculate how much each of them contributes to the writing. With rumours that the currently ongoing Granola arc has had more story involvement from Toriyama than the last, it seems we're starting to see a more ruthless Vegeta resurface as he fully embraces the path of the Hakaishin. Will the trend continue with the upcoming movie, which is supposedly Toriyama's most personal project yet?...
(Now I'm posting this immediately as I already lost one huge-ass topic draft about Jiren and I'm not making the same error in judgment again)

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:09 pm

Yeah, that's something a lot of fans miss, especially Vegeta fans who are already inclined to project more hidden altruism onto Vegeta - in Toriyama's story, Vegeta has always been a brute and pretty dang apathetic about the Saiyan people due to his superiority complex. And of course, he never showed any real remorse for his actions.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by precita » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:00 pm

Honestly I think it's flanderization and character regression, it's the same way Goku is written more stupid/clueless than he was in DBZ even in Toriyama's manga. Both Goku and Vegeta's characters are noticeably flanderized to the point where it feels like the writers only remember the basic traits of their characters and assume they act that way all the time.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:25 am

Like I said in a previous discussion about Toriyama's continued job of downgrading Goku's character, he has no intention or need to do or be better. so yeah, when he's behind the steering wheel, he's going to take his beliefs (that to me look like he's saying Saiyans are just pieces of shit) and go out of his way to show what he thinks of Goku and Vegeta.

It's almost like all the love, attention, and acclaim he's received internationally for Dragonball upset him, and he's trying to reverse it.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by BWri » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:45 am

FoolsGil wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:25 am Like I said in a previous discussion about Toriyama's continued job of downgrading Goku's character, he has no intention or need to do or be better. so yeah, when he's behind the steering wheel, he's going to take his beliefs (that to me look like he's saying Saiyans are just pieces of shit) and go out of his way to show what he thinks of Goku and Vegeta.

It's almost like all the love, attention, and acclaim he's received internationally for Dragonball upset him, and he's trying to reverse it.
It's really just his philosophy.

"There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows."
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/03/27/n ... ial-talks/

I do like the elements of poison that slip in, but I wish he'd do something more interesting with it. Because he doesn't say ... have Goku and co. face any real consequences for his selfishness or challenges to his character, I find what Toei and Toyotaro are doing far more interesting.

Togashi-san uses Toriyama-san's poison philosophy in much more interesting ways IMO, but I get the feeling he's just as inspired by it as I am.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:11 pm

BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:45 am
FoolsGil wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:25 am Like I said in a previous discussion about Toriyama's continued job of downgrading Goku's character, he has no intention or need to do or be better. so yeah, when he's behind the steering wheel, he's going to take his beliefs (that to me look like he's saying Saiyans are just pieces of shit) and go out of his way to show what he thinks of Goku and Vegeta.

It's almost like all the love, attention, and acclaim he's received internationally for Dragonball upset him, and he's trying to reverse it.
It's really just his philosophy.

"There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows."
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/03/27/n ... ial-talks/

I do like the elements of poison that slip in, but I wish he'd do something more interesting with it. Because he doesn't say ... have Goku and co. face any real consequences for his selfishness or challenges to his character, I find what Toei and Toyotaro are doing far more interesting.

Togashi-san uses Toriyama-san's poison philosophy in much more interesting ways IMO, but I get the feeling he's just as inspired by it as I am.
Yes the "poison" interview. Besides the fact as you mentioned he doesn't do anything with it, he also uses it to prevent positive change, and worst regress characters. The poison went from Goku more interested in fighting than protecting, to suddenly being a catch all to harbor saiyan negative traits in general. And apparently Vegeta is still on his poison sipping the kool-aid because he still hasn't changed, even though by Majin Buu saga he was supposedly have gotten the "good guy" card.

Toriyama uses poison as an excuse to not only keep his characters static, but take away their development.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:14 pm

I’ve said this before, but Toriyama’s “poison” philosophy in regards to Dragon Ball makes it all the more baffling that he wrote Dragon Ball Minus.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by BWri » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:38 pm

I can't really disagree with either of you.

I don't think Toriyama-san is very consistent with his storytelling. I very much feel he wants to have his cake and eat it too, evoking heroism and justice when he wants and taking it away when its most convenient.

I guess the poison's still there with some of the messed up story choices like Trunks' realm getting wiped out for Future Zeno gags and fun tournaments and Broly almost getting wiped away by our "heroes" after losing his dad.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by BWri » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:53 pm

I usually don't mind this dichotomy with Vegeta as it shows his instincts from many years of being an enslaved mercenary are still intact and he's trying to fight those instincts and urges. To me, that's far more interesting than a swift change of character. So to me Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta & Toei/Toyataro's Piccolo-esque Mature Vegeta have a weird sort of synergy that typically works for me as long as he's not reverting to annoying rival guy.

Where this loses me, is with Vegeta's treatment of Paragus and Broly. I spoke of this before, when DBS: Broly was released, but to me, Vegeta's apathy in the Broly movie feels out of character. How can the guy who cares so much for Saiyans in another universe not give a single shit about those in his own?
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:02 pm

Just wanted the say LoganForkHands that you consistently make some real fantastic threads. I agree with your assessment for sure. I generally find Vegeta much more entertaining as a character in stories where Toriyama has written him more exclusively but am indeed irked by the inconsistency.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Yuli Ban » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:42 pm

It all reeks of a writer who doesn't care for the story, which is what Toriyama has consistently said he is. He's never particularly cared about the characters or the story, but he does think about them. His attitutde towards Dragon Ball is different compared to a lot of fans, whose attention and obsession with the series might come off as otherworldly to him.

I'd compare it to him viewing Dragon Ball the same way I might view my favorite kung fu movie, a fun romp that eats up some hours of your day, but everyone else acting like it's Star Wars and needing to know every little detail and bits of lore and imbuing real-world psychology into it.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:46 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:02 pm Just wanted the say LoganForkHands that you consistently make some real fantastic threads. I agree with your assessment for sure. I generally find Vegeta much more entertaining as a character in stories where Toriyama has written him more exclusively but am indeed irked by the inconsistency.
Thank you very much, fellow manga-Goku-profile-pic-haver! Glad you enjoy them. I too like Toriyama's Vegeta because he never lets you forget that he used to be a bad MF. You definitely feel that against Super Broly, even after all this time of adjusting to him being a hero, which is always entertaining. There's always an inherent intrigue whenever we get a sense that the original creator has penned their own characters and Toriyama will always have that special privilege. :)
I usually don't mind this dichotomy with Vegeta as it shows his instincts from many years of being an enslaved mercenary are still intact and he's trying to fight those instincts and urges. To me, that's far more interesting than a swift change of character. So to me Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta & Toei/Toyataro's Piccolo-esque Mature Vegeta have a weird sort of synergy that typically works for me as long as he's not reverting to annoying rival guy.

Where this loses me, is with Vegeta's treatment of Paragus and Broly. I spoke of this before, when DBS: Broly was released, but to me, Vegeta's apathy in the Broly movie feels out of character. How can the guy who cares so much for Saiyans in another universe not give a single shit about those in his own?
I agree. Not to continue speculating too much, but considering that Toriyama regularly reviews his own work when writing new projects, he probably sees the cracks in Vegeta's original redemption arc as many fans have. As rightfully legendary as Vegeta arc across the original manga was, his transition to the light wasn't always the smoothest and his many crimes may have been too hastily forgiven by the narrative. So perhaps it's in Toriyama's long term interest to correct that by showing that Vegeta's mercenary traits haven't magically evaporated. And like you say, these different artists' interpretations of Vegeta only synergise to create a much more complex, well-rounded character overall.

I like to think that Vegeta's non-reaction to Broly and Paragus was mostly apathy from having met many other new Saiyans at this point, combined with discomfort at being confronted with his past again. I think a hipster part of Vegeta likes being one of the last Saiyans as it gives him a rare legacy to uphold, but he dislikes confronting the reality that the Saiyans were ultimately a lowly barbaric race with nothing special going for them (besides the rare few like himself who tapped into their full potential). Universe 6's Saiyans represents a nostalgic, ideal version of his culture, whereas Broly and Paragus represent another reminder of everything Vegeta would rather forget about the Saiyans: their ugly primate nature, their self-destructive caste system and their subjugation under Freeza.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:08 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:46 pm
I like to think that Vegeta's non-reaction to Broly and Paragus was mostly apathy from having met many other new Saiyans at this point, combined with discomfort at being confronted with his past again. I think a hipster part of Vegeta likes being one of the last Saiyans as it gives him a rare legacy to uphold, but he dislikes confronting the reality that the Saiyans were ultimately a lowly barbaric race with nothing special going for them (besides the rare few like himself who tapped into their full potential). Universe 6's Saiyans represents a nostalgic, ideal version of his culture, whereas Broly and Paragus represent another reminder of everything Vegeta would rather forget about the Saiyans: their ugly primate nature, their self-destructive caste system and their subjugation under Freeza.
Another thing to consider is that up until Dodoria's reveal, Vegeta had spent a good 20 years believing that the Saiyans had been wiped out by a meteor. Given Vegeta's toxically Darwinistic beliefs, it stands to reason he wrote the Saiyans off as ultimately a band of weaklings who couldn't even survive a lousy meteor; that dismissal was probably why he was able to believe that cover-story so easily, as his immediate reaction was probably of disgust and disregard. And so, even after learning the truth, that same internalized disdain probably remained.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:52 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:08 pm
Another thing to consider is that up until Dodoria's reveal, Vegeta had spent a good 20 years believing that the Saiyans had been wiped out by a meteor. Given Vegeta's toxically Darwinistic beliefs, it stands to reason he wrote the Saiyans off as ultimately a band of weaklings who couldn't even survive a lousy meteor; that dismissal was probably why he was able to believe that cover-story so easily, as his immediate reaction was probably of disgust and disregard. And so, even after learning the truth, that same internalized disdain probably remained.
Yep. Vegeta definitely saw, and still sees himself as head and shoulders above the entire Saiyan population. The one thing he and Goku could be said to agree on regarding the Saiyans is that they got what the deserved, but they both have different reasonings for believing that. For Goku, it's a moral judgment; for Vegeta, it's always been a Darwinist one until very recently.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Skar » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:34 pm

I was honestly surprised when Vegeta tried to kill Broly. I thought he could've had some sympathy for a fellow Saiyan being manipulated by Freeza. Gogeta also went for the kill while allowing Freeza to live which kinda bothered me. Freeza wasn't a threat at that point but he was responsible for unleashing Broly against them. If Gogeta did kill Broly, letting Freeza go would've been even worse then in my opinion.

I think Zeno is another character that might be portrayed differently than Toriyama intended. The anime had him hold the ToP as test I guess to give it more meaning. Assuming the manga followed the outline more closely, the tournament seemed to be for Zeno's amusement and didn't care what wish was made since it didn't bring up the test. I think the manga's ending made more sense with what we've heard about Zeno and that he destroyed six universes before over some unknown minor annoyance so destroying more because they were too much work wouldn't be too unexpected.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:10 pm

Skar wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:34 pm I was honestly surprised when Vegeta tried to kill Broly. I thought he could've had some sympathy for a fellow Saiyan being manipulated by Freeza. Gogeta also went for the kill while allowing Freeza to live which kinda bothered me. Freeza wasn't a threat at that point but he was responsible for unleashing Broly against them. If Gogeta did kill Broly, letting Freeza go would've been even worse then in my opinion.

I think Zeno is another character that might be portrayed differently than Toriyama intended. The anime had him hold the ToP as test I guess to give it more meaning. Assuming the manga followed the outline more closely, the tournament seemed to be for Zeno's amusement and didn't care what wish was made since it didn't bring up the test. I think the manga's ending made more sense with what we've heard about Zeno and that he destroyed six universes before over some unknown minor annoyance so destroying more because they were too much work wouldn't be too unexpected.
Vegeta was right, though. Broly was uncontrollable and could have killed everyone there.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:03 pm

This makes me wonder about Porunga's decision to revive Vegeta at the climax of the Boo arc. I'm sure pre-posession Spopovich wasn't anywhere near as bad as Vegeta but its likely that neither he nor Yamu got brought back, yet up until the wish was made to bring everyone back except for the "really bad ones" everyone "In-universe" thought Vegeta was still bound for Hell once Boo was defeated.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:53 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:03 pm This makes me wonder about Porunga's decision to revive Vegeta at the climax of the Boo arc. I'm sure pre-posession Spopovich wasn't anywhere near as bad as Vegeta but its likely that neither he nor Yamu got brought back, yet up until the wish was made to bring everyone back except for the "really bad ones" everyone "In-universe" thought Vegeta was still bound for Hell once Boo was defeated.
Porunga knew Vegeta was one of the good guys. I think the only one who thought Vegeta was Hellbound was Vegeta himself. Anyone else who may have thought that was just plain wrong. It's clear that Vegeta's days of evil were behind him by the time the Boo saga had started. It didn't matter what he had done previously. What mattered was that he persevered in spite of it and was fighting on the side of good by the time the final battle rolled around.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by ABED » Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:07 am

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:53 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:03 pm This makes me wonder about Porunga's decision to revive Vegeta at the climax of the Boo arc. I'm sure pre-posession Spopovich wasn't anywhere near as bad as Vegeta but its likely that neither he nor Yamu got brought back, yet up until the wish was made to bring everyone back except for the "really bad ones" everyone "In-universe" thought Vegeta was still bound for Hell once Boo was defeated.
Porunga knew Vegeta was one of the good guys. I think the only one who thought Vegeta was Hellbound was Vegeta himself. Anyone else who may have thought that was just plain wrong. It's clear that Vegeta's days of evil were behind him by the time the Boo saga had started. It didn't matter what he had done previously. What mattered was that he persevered in spite of it and was fighting on the side of good by the time the final battle rolled around.
Just days before being resurrected he killed hundreds if not thousands to get into a pissing contest.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by TobyS » Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:49 am

BWri wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:53 pm
I usually don't mind this dichotomy with Vegeta as it shows his instincts from many years of being an enslaved mercenary are still intact and he's trying to fight those instincts and urges. To me, that's far more interesting than a swift change of character. So to me Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta & Toei/Toyataro's Piccolo-esque Mature Vegeta have a weird sort of synergy that typically works for me as long as he's not reverting to annoying rival guy.

Where this loses me, is with Vegeta's treatment of Paragus and Broly. I spoke of this before, when DBS: Broly was released, but to me, Vegeta's apathy in the Broly movie feels out of character. How can the guy who cares so much for Saiyans in another universe not give a single shit about those in his own?
Because unlike U6 the ones in his universe have all been total pricks. Paragus ain't cabba. His treatment of cabba was as much circumstancial as it was a character change for Geets.
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