The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

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The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by super michael » Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:19 am

EpicRaptorMan wrote:People don't like GT
People don't like Super.

What I've come to realize is both shows have complaints about their versions of Goku.
• GT focused heavily on Goku and in fact turned him into a kid to bring back more of the classic-DB vibe. Which fans have gone on file to say they didn't like and would prefer Goku be left an adult. I agree.
• Super kept Goku as an adult, but made his intelligence and mental maturity equal to that of a child. (Not knowing what a kiss is and constantly being forgetful).

If both of these aspects were changed/fixed each show would be seen as better in most eyes. Do you agree?
I never had a problem with the way GT Goku was written to be honest, I never had a problem with Goku being turned into a kid.

As for DBS I see they exaggerated Goku stupidity and negative traits all for the sake of gag. DBS Goku sometimes seems inferior in intelligence compared to his kid self.
Everytime someone does something stupid, it is normally Goku the center of attention, they constantly have Goku doing dumb things.

They made Goku super forgetful, annoying, selfish, arrogant, whinny, etc.
Last edited by super michael on Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by 90sDBZ » Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:14 pm

GT Goku felt like an adult in a kids body.

DBS Goku feels like a kid in an adults body.

While Super is the better show, GT had the better Goku.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by Yuji » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:42 am

90sDBZ wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:14 pm GT Goku felt like an adult in a kids body.

DBS Goku feels like a kid in an adults body.

While Super is the better show, GT had the better Goku.
I disagree. I've never witnessed this so-called maturity in GT Goku on my rewatches. He's a bit more serious as a SS4 but that's analagous to Goku being serious as an SSB or UI in Super. In their base forms, they're equally as childish and immature. Goku spends a good chunk of his screen time in the first 20 episodes complaining about hunger and being babysat by Pan of all people. Put into more serious situations, those traits disappear somewhat (and in turn he has questionable character turns, such as refusing to acknowledge the harm the Saiyans caused when Bebi called him out, despite doing the exact opposite against Freeza on Namek) but they return by the Shadow Dragons once again.

I can only imagine folks conflate Heroes' Xeno Goku with GT Goku, or have a warped view of him because of SS4 and the epilogue, because in the rest of the series itself he's insufferable.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:10 am

Yuji wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:42 am I disagree. I've never witnessed this so-called maturity in GT Goku on my rewatches. He's a bit more serious as a SS4 but that's analagous to Goku being serious as an SSB or UI in Super. In their base forms, they're equally as childish and immature. Goku spends a good chunk of his screen time in the first 20 episodes complaining about hunger and being babysat by Pan of all people. Put into more serious situations, those traits disappear somewhat (and in turn he has questionable character turns, such as refusing to acknowledge the harm the Saiyans caused when Bebi called him out, despite doing the exact opposite against Freeza on Namek) but they return by the Shadow Dragons once again.

I can only imagine folks conflate Heroes' Xeno Goku with GT Goku, or have a warped view of him because of SS4 and the epilogue, because in the rest of the series itself he's insufferable.
I've never watched Heroes myself and don't care to.

Goku in GT acts goofy when nothing serious is happening, but is consistently shown to take threats seriously when they arise. He also cares about his family, and shows genuine concern for the safety of others, rather than blatant the indifference of DBS Goku. For this reason GT Goku still felt like a guy I could get behind.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:21 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:10 am Goku in GT acts goofy when nothing serious is happening, but is consistently shown to take threats seriously when they arise. He also cares about his family, and shows genuine concern for the safety of others, rather than blatant the indifference of DBS Goku. For this reason GT Goku still felt like a guy I could get behind.
He's no different in the rest of DB. He's constantly making questionable decisions for the sake of a better fight. Define "taking things seriously."
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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by Skar » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:02 pm

This topics comes up a lot :P. At this point, we're aware that not every scene of DBS Goku is entirely written by Toriyama and there could be some slight differences between the manga and anime since they have different writers. That could apply to most characters. There are going to be some scenes in the manga and anime that weren't part of the outline so those writers are choosing how that character reacts in that specific situationand may not be the same as what Toriyama would've done.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:07 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:21 pm He's no different in the rest of DB. He's constantly making questionable decisions for the sake of a better fight. Define "taking things seriously."
During the ToP he appears to genuinly not care that countless innocents are being deleted right in front of him, and continues to have the time of his life. Either he lacks empathy or he somehow doesn't grasp the gravity of the situation.

In GT you can see the concern on his face whenever people are in danger, and he's sensible enough to realise when shits hitting the fan.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:33 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:07 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:21 pm He's no different in the rest of DB. He's constantly making questionable decisions for the sake of a better fight. Define "taking things seriously."
During the ToP he appears to genuinly not care that countless innocents are being deleted right in front of him, and continues to have the time of his life. Either he lacks empathy or he somehow doesn't grasp the gravity of the situation.

In GT you can see the concern on his face whenever people are in danger, and he's sensible enough to realise when shits hitting the fan.
And he appeared to not care that much when he destroyed the Potarra so he could "fight like a Saiyan". Whether you like it or not is NOT the issue. What matters is if it's in character.

Goku does grasp the gravity of these situations but I don't know how many times people have to hear this - he's not a superhero. Goku puts fights above the fate of the world(s). He cared more about winning the 23rd TB than taking down Piccolo as expediently as possible.
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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:42 pm

I don’t know why people constantly feel the need to point out that Goku isn’t a superhero. I think most people on these forums are aware of that. You don’t need to be a champion of justice to have a moral compass. Besides, even if we assumed that Goku doesn’t care one bit about the lives of others, it would still be in his best interest for the bad guys to not succeed in destroying the Earth/the universe, considering that he lives in it.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:12 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:33 pm And he appeared to not care that much when he destroyed the Potarra so he could "fight like a Saiyan". Whether you like it or not is NOT the issue. What matters is if it's in character.

Goku does grasp the gravity of these situations but I don't know how many times people have to hear this - he's not a superhero. Goku puts fights above the fate of the world(s). He cared more about winning the 23rd TB than taking down Piccolo as expediently as possible.
There's a big difference between taking an irresponsible risk and simply having no reaction to innocent people dying in front of you. He doesn't need to be a superhero, he just needs to feel like less of a soulless caricature.

Goku in the original run was irresponsible, but he always cared about people, and hated seeing innocents wronged when it happened in front of him. In Super he doesn't even show any sign of disliking Zeno despite him wiping out countless people on a whim.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:25 pm

If both of these aspects were changed/fixed each show would be seen as better in most eyes. Do you agree?
If people believe that Goku is too child-like or immature in Super/GT then it's because the shows themselves are too child-like or immature. Changing Goku's character will not improve the show itself. If anything, the show would fall apart if its main character were so out of step with everything else.

Alternatively, you could focus on changing the show itself, if the goal were to improve Goku's character. To change Goku, don't focus on him, but focus on the other characters or writing or other overall aspects of the series and change them instead.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:28 pm

Here is one thing GT Goku never did and that is force anyone to battle him or spar with him. Goku in DBS was annoying and selfish to Monaka, even though he said that he didn't want to spar with Goku.
Beerus told Goku not to fight Monaka, but Goku did a sneak attack on Monaka.

Goku was annoying to Zamasu.

Goku was annoying to Whis, even though Whis agreed to train him, Goku didn't want to let Whis eat in peace. Goku got so annoying that Whis even was thinking not training Goku.

Goku got Super whinny just because Vegeta trained alone with Whis. So Goku only goes to Whis when Vegeta goes, that is really stupid of Goku.

The biggest and only mistake GT Goku did was not realizing Super 17 was absorbing his ki, but that can be excused since Super 17 ki can't be sensed. As for Goku complaining about being hungry, do remember when Goku is starving that affects his power. That is how in DB Goku lost against Yamcha.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by Skar » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:51 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:28 pm Here is one thing GT Goku never did and that is force anyone to battle him or spar with him. Goku in DBS was annoying and selfish to Monaka, even though he said that he didn't want to spar with Goku.
Beerus told Goku not to fight Monaka, but Goku did a sneak attack on Monaka.

Goku was annoying to Zamasu.

Goku was annoying to Whis, even though Whis agreed to train him, Goku didn't want to let Whis eat in peace. Goku got so annoying that Whis even was thinking not training Goku.

Goku got Super whinny just because Vegeta trained alone with Whis. So Goku only goes to Whis when Vegeta goes, that is really stupid of Goku.
To be fair, those were anime only gag scenes. Toriyama wrote Broly and we see a sympathetic Goku there who tried to help Broly. That was my favorite scene in the movie since Goku wasn't just thinking of fighting this new strong opponent and was willing to end it if it meant helping them.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:14 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:12 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:33 pm And he appeared to not care that much when he destroyed the Potarra so he could "fight like a Saiyan". Whether you like it or not is NOT the issue. What matters is if it's in character.

Goku does grasp the gravity of these situations but I don't know how many times people have to hear this - he's not a superhero. Goku puts fights above the fate of the world(s). He cared more about winning the 23rd TB than taking down Piccolo as expediently as possible.
There's a big difference between taking an irresponsible risk and simply having no reaction to innocent people dying in front of you. He doesn't need to be a superhero, he just needs to feel like less of a soulless caricature.

Goku in the original run was irresponsible, but he always cared about people, and hated seeing innocents wronged when it happened in front of him. In Super he doesn't even show any sign of disliking Zeno despite him wiping out countless people on a whim.
There isn't at the end of the day. You think everyone got off Papaya Island in time? Innocent people died and all Goku cared about was winning the title. Sure, he cares about people but he is reckless and will put the fight above even the fate of the universe. Keep in mind that Goku has NO qualms of working with Vegeta despite him killing not just innocents, but his FRIENDS.
WittyUsername wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:42 pm I don’t know why people constantly feel the need to point out that Goku isn’t a superhero. I think most people on these forums are aware of that. You don’t need to be a champion of justice to have a moral compass. Besides, even if we assumed that Goku doesn’t care one bit about the lives of others, it would still be in his best interest for the bad guys to not succeed in destroying the Earth/the universe, considering that he lives in it.
It would be but that isn't who Goku is. Characters like people aren't always interested in their long term best interest. They are emotional and want to achieve their goals even if it's reckless to do so. I would think people on this forum would be aware of that, but here we are.
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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:27 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:14 pm
90sDBZ wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:12 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:33 pm And he appeared to not care that much when he destroyed the Potarra so he could "fight like a Saiyan". Whether you like it or not is NOT the issue. What matters is if it's in character.

Goku does grasp the gravity of these situations but I don't know how many times people have to hear this - he's not a superhero. Goku puts fights above the fate of the world(s). He cared more about winning the 23rd TB than taking down Piccolo as expediently as possible.
There's a big difference between taking an irresponsible risk and simply having no reaction to innocent people dying in front of you. He doesn't need to be a superhero, he just needs to feel like less of a soulless caricature.

Goku in the original run was irresponsible, but he always cared about people, and hated seeing innocents wronged when it happened in front of him. In Super he doesn't even show any sign of disliking Zeno despite him wiping out countless people on a whim.
There isn't at the end of the day. You think everyone got off Papaya Island in time? Innocent people died and all Goku cared about was winning the title. Sure, he cares about people but he is reckless and will put the fight above even the fate of the universe. Keep in mind that Goku has NO qualms of working with Vegeta despite him killing not just innocents, but his FRIENDS.
WittyUsername wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:42 pm I don’t know why people constantly feel the need to point out that Goku isn’t a superhero. I think most people on these forums are aware of that. You don’t need to be a champion of justice to have a moral compass. Besides, even if we assumed that Goku doesn’t care one bit about the lives of others, it would still be in his best interest for the bad guys to not succeed in destroying the Earth/the universe, considering that he lives in it.
It would be but that isn't who Goku is. Characters like people aren't always interested in their long term best interest. They are emotional and want to achieve their goals even if it's reckless to do so. I would think people on this forum would be aware of that, but here we are.
I don't believe anyone died by Piccolo explosion attack, there was no confirmed death. Normally when evil kill innocent that pisses Goku of a lot.
Goku saw Majin Buu as a greater threat, so him working with Vegeta was a smart decision. It is better not to underestimate his opponent.

Goku tried to prevent innocent people from getting killed and if evil does manage to kill, then he would want to revive those that were killed.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:46 pm

Because we don't see it but no way everyone got off the island.
super michael wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:27 pm Goku tried to prevent innocent people from getting killed and if evil does manage to kill, then he would want to revive those that were killed.
Why do I have to keep saying this - he doesn't pre-emptively stop evil from rising up. He is fine with it if it'll give him a good fight.
Goku saw Majin Buu as a greater threat, so him working with Vegeta was a smart decision. It is better not to underestimate his opponent.
There were far better ways to defeat Buu than the way he went about it - one on one without the Potara or Gohan.
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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:00 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:28 pm Here is one thing GT Goku never did and that is force anyone to battle him or spar with him. Goku in DBS was annoying and selfish to Monaka, even though he said that he didn't want to spar with Goku.
Beerus told Goku not to fight Monaka, but Goku did a sneak attack on Monaka.

Goku was annoying to Zamasu.

Goku was annoying to Whis, even though Whis agreed to train him, Goku didn't want to let Whis eat in peace. Goku got so annoying that Whis even was thinking not training Goku.

Goku got Super whinny just because Vegeta trained alone with Whis. So Goku only goes to Whis when Vegeta goes, that is really stupid of Goku.

The biggest and only mistake GT Goku did was not realizing Super 17 was absorbing his ki, but that can be excused since Super 17 ki can't be sensed. As for Goku complaining about being hungry, do remember when Goku is starving that affects his power. That is how in DB Goku lost against Yamcha.
It's been a while since I've seen GT but wasn't there that bit where it looks like Trunks has disabled Baby's life support and Goku starts whining over not getting the chance to fight him and starts crawling all over his tube?

It's a mild scene, but one that still sticks out to me as being annoying. I don't think Goku in GT is that far off from how he's characterised in Super.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:54 pm

Kataphrut wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:00 pm It's been a while since I've seen GT but wasn't there that bit where it looks like Trunks has disabled Baby's life support and Goku starts whining over not getting the chance to fight him and starts crawling all over his tube?

It's a mild scene, but one that still sticks out to me as being annoying. I don't think Goku in GT is that far off from how he's characterised in Super.
The difference is in GT Goku is a child. Super Goku is supposed to be an adult.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:48 am

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:54 pm
Kataphrut wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:00 pm It's been a while since I've seen GT but wasn't there that bit where it looks like Trunks has disabled Baby's life support and Goku starts whining over not getting the chance to fight him and starts crawling all over his tube?

It's a mild scene, but one that still sticks out to me as being annoying. I don't think Goku in GT is that far off from how he's characterised in Super.
The difference is in GT Goku is a child. Super Goku is supposed to be an adult.
GT Goku is chronologically older than Super Goku.

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Re: The weak points of DBS & DBGT both involve Goku's immaturity

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:03 am

Kataphrut wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:48 am GT Goku is chronologically older than Super Goku.
Yes but despite his actual age, he's still a kid in GT. Which means he's prone to childish behavior. That's true even if the transformation were entirely physical, because the writers are more likely to depict Goku childishly when he's that size.

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