Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:24 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:44 pm
J.K. Rowling is a TERF and if you read through many of the things she has said on the subject, she certainly doesn't come off as right-wing at all
Anyone who is transphobic is right wing. You can't be a leftist and be anti-LGBTQ. Not to mention, many Neo Nazis started to support her when she started to open up her TERF mouth of hers.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:44 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:58 pm SHFiguarts toys don't sell out because soccer moms are buying them for little Timmy, its the schmucks like us on this forum and various content creators on the interwebs who buy them and I think its a safe bet to say we're all past our middle school years.
In terms of the the United States, Dragon Ball doesn’t seem to be aimed at kids anymore, but I was under the impression that it’s still very much a children’s property in Japan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:47 pm

Half of the original Dragon Ball comic is rated All Ages for kids. The comic is the easiest and most accessible form of getting into the series.

It's still aimed at kids and is still made for kids.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:55 pm

Shaddy wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:06 amYou are trying to prove the existence of a caricature of leftism that only exists within the idiom of conservative propaganda.

Let me break this down into the most basic terms I can.

A leftist belief is "unions are good". A conservative belief is "unions are bad".

So when China alleges that it is "communist", and then destroys leftist unionization attempts, why would that mean they're "too far left" instead of just not believing the leftist opinion?

I'm assuming you know better than to say "well, they have 'communist' in their names".
Are you really trying to argue that the Chinese government is right-wing? They're more right-wing than they were 50 years ago, but still pretty hard left.
See, I'm here saying "if a leftist practices the exact opposite of everything they claim to believe, they are not meaningfully worth considering a part of the left". The right says "every leftist actually wants what we want, just with blacks on top instead of whites".

There is no part of feminism that includes thinking one gender is inherently inferior. It's not a "fringe".
Every group or movement will have extremists, and those extremists will often interpret the philosophy of the group to make insane conclusions that the mainstream wouldn't. Said conclusions are pretty much always terrible. That's the genesis of the horseshoe effect.
If you're claiming "both sides are the same", the fact that the left doesn't say "both sides are the same" should be a pretty fucking significant difference to you. We do not think right-wingers secretly want the world to be equal. The closest thing you get is some of us grouping republicans and democrats together because they're both capitalist puppets that love bombing brown people.

If you are treating someone espousing the opposite of leftism as just as legitimate as someone pointing out that it's not leftist, you have already picked a side.
I never said 'both sides are the same'. I said 'as you go more extreme into the fringes of both sides, they start to have more things in common'.

Image
Not really. Fundamentally leftism is anti-capitalist. Centrist liberals are not the same as the far-right, but they are, inevitably, reinforcing the same capitalist hierarchy, and all it brings with it. Even someone like Bernie, who called himself a socialist (a big mistake, really), was not meaningfully planning to dismantle oppressive systems, he just had a lot of nice ideas of how to make the oppression more survivable.
Well if you consider Bernie Sanders to be right-wing, then obviously you would consider J.K. Rowling to be right-wing as well. But most people don't draw the line that way. Calling Bernie Sanders a right-wing capitalist makes about as much sense to me as calling Trump a left-wing socialist. I'm sure that, to some crazy extreme far-right groups, he would be, but that's not the perspective that most people have.
What part of working a shitty 9-5 is "natural"? Where does human nature enter into business investments? What part of "nature" requires humans to maintain it without strong efforts to dismantle it?

The necessary counter-narrative is to stress that the problems we face are not natural features of the world, that in fact, very little of human life is natural, and even if it were, what is natural is not necessarily what is right. The way nature deals with a pandemic is to let everyone without a genetic resistance to the illness die, and if what's left is not a stable breeding population, you go extinct. That's natural. Humanity as we know it only exists in defiance of nature. Every form of bigotry, every means of oppression, is a thing we created. They are human problems, and they have human solutions. They have not always existed, and there are places in the world where they are being addressed.
Just to clarify something, are you actually arguing in favor of Soviet - style communism here?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:03 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:24 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:44 pm
J.K. Rowling is a TERF and if you read through many of the things she has said on the subject, she certainly doesn't come off as right-wing at all
Anyone who is transphobic is right wing. You can't be a leftist and be anti-LGBTQ. Not to mention, many Neo Nazis started to support her when she started to open up her TERF mouth of hers.
Again, I think that's overly simplistic. The right wing supported her when she said that stuff only because she said that stuff. If they looked more deeply into her philosophies on other matters, they would certain not agree with most of it. For example, she is pro-choice and believes women have a right to an abortion. Conservatives (at least in the US, not sure about everywhere else) absolutely hate that.

You can't simply categorize bad ideas as automatically being right-wing, while good ideas are automatically left-wing. That ignores the very definition of the terms and the nature of the political spectrum. Both right-wing and left-wing people can have bad ideas, just often for different reasons. That's the horseshoe effect. Going too extreme in either direction is a bad idea.

However I will say that what is considered 'moderate' left-wing thought nowadays is a lot better and more commendable than what is considered 'moderate' right-wing thought. Although politics in the US today is really choosing between right-wing and even more right-wing politicians, I'll vote for the ones that are farther to the left.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:07 pm

Queer people are not allowed to exist in China. It is absolutely right-wing to regularly commit crimes against humanity.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Dr. Casey » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:30 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:47 pm Half of the original Dragon Ball comic is rated All Ages for kids. The comic is the easiest and most accessible form of getting into the series.

It's still aimed at kids and is still made for kids.
Witty just means who it's marketed to in the US when Funimation runs advertisements and commercials and the like. In Japan it was created more squarely for children, but the present day United States marketing nowadays is probably aimed at nostalgic Millennials first and foremost.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:33 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:07 pm Queer people are not allowed to exist in China. It is absolutely right-wing to regularly commit crimes against humanity.
Again, that's too simplistic. Extreme left-wing ideologies can (and have) committed crimes just as heinous than the most extreme right-wing governments. The USSR, Maoist China, and other communist governments are directly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:20 pm

Can China still be considered a communist government at this point? Yeah, they call themselves communist, but they seem to have quite a few billionaires over there, and they’re becoming a pretty competitive market for consumerism.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Shaddy » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:55 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:45 pm Human beings love material possessions and the status of being wealthy.
They also "love" mercilessly disemboweling each other, but shockingly that's still illegal. It's almost like we are capable of making choices and societies that funnel people towards good choices have a better quality of life or something.
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:55 pm Are you really trying to argue that the Chinese government is right-wing? They're more right-wing than they were 50 years ago, but still pretty hard left.
China is literally capitalist. It has a billionaire class, oppresses ethnic minorities, it attacks unions, it's constructed on socially conservative nationalism, literally funds a massive section of the US economy, has serious wealth disparity, is allied with apartheid ethnostates, and attacks leftist groups all of the damn time. The only "leftist" thing about the CCP is having the word "Communist" in it's name. To deny this displays a serious misunderstanding of progressive thought, and the concept of a belief system in the first place.
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:55 pm Every group or movement will have extremists, and those extremists will often interpret the philosophy of the group to make insane conclusions that the mainstream wouldn't. Said conclusions are pretty much always terrible. That's the genesis of the horseshoe effect.
Again, it is fundamentally not part of the philosophy unless your position is that literally no words have any meaning ever and everything is the same as everything else.

Look at this debate phrased in any other terms and you realize how absolutely idiotic it is; How big of a Dragon Ball fan does someone have to be before they decide that burning down a church is a good idea? Oh, what's that? It sounds completely fucking unrelated? Well sorry, but horseshoe theory says the majority of Dragon Ball fans aren't arsonists, therefore it only stands to reason that the most extreme ones would be. Them's the 8r8ks, kid.Image
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:55 pm Well if you consider Bernie Sanders to be right-wing, then obviously you would consider J.K. Rowling to be right-wing as well. But most people don't draw the line that way. Calling Bernie Sanders a right-wing capitalist makes about as much sense to me as calling Trump a left-wing socialist. I'm sure that, to some crazy extreme far-right groups, he would be, but that's not the perspective that most people have.
If you are against dismantling the capitalist status quo, you are in favor of capitalism, which is the case for both Trump and Sanders. This is extremely fucking simple, and it is becoming more and more obvious that you're using "they're just fringe extremists" to group whatever politics you don't personally like in with people everyone hates as a matter of making them easier to dismiss. I can't say I'm a fan of that.
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:55 pm Just to clarify something, are you actually arguing in favor of Soviet - style communism here?
Did he say "Soviet style communism"? Why would I be arguing with something you've literally seen me say isn't even communist?
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:03 pm Again, I think that's overly simplistic. The right wing supported her when she said that stuff only because she said that stuff. If they looked more deeply into her philosophies on other matters, they would certain not agree with most of it. For example, she is pro-choice and believes women have a right to an abortion. Conservatives (at least in the US, not sure about everywhere else) absolutely hate that.
Who says they believe that? You've just characterized any pro-choice conservative as a leftist. See how circular your logic is and how selectively you apply it?
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:03 pm You can't simply categorize bad ideas as automatically being right-wing, while good ideas are automatically left-wing.
Nobody is doing this though, except possibly you by just branding any schmuck with a tank and a red flag as believing all the same things as the ones who want people to have healthcare.
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:03 pm That ignores the very definition of the terms and the nature of the political spectrum. Both right-wing and left-wing people can have bad ideas, just often for different reasons. That's the horseshoe effect. Going too extreme in either direction is a bad idea.
The horseshoe effect is top-to-bottom bullshit that treats politics as an oversimplified binary and falsely equates about a hundred different cases of both moderates and extremism. You cannot meaningfully accuse random people of agreeing with the actions of dictators when you are so fundamentally inept at showing an ideological link between them.

Even the stupid political compass is better than this, and that thing's still horribly oversimplified thinly-veiled libertarian propaganda. Anarchists and tankies are both communists, and both "extremists", but you cannot possibly hope to argue that Mao Zedong was an anti-government anti-establishment anarchist. So demanding that people play into a political LARP where they have to answer for a government that is at least as far from their beliefs as a "regular" conservative is an aggression against the left that is never applied to the right.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:59 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:44 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:58 pm SHFiguarts toys don't sell out because soccer moms are buying them for little Timmy, its the schmucks like us on this forum and various content creators on the interwebs who buy them and I think its a safe bet to say we're all past our middle school years.
In terms of the the United States, Dragon Ball doesn’t seem to be aimed at kids anymore, but I was under the impression that it’s still very much a children’s property in Japan.
I think we have to look past our own anecdotal experiences and the U.S indoctrination that Cartoons = 3rd graders (Though I'm sure we all know that isnt true) and try to really look at the bigger picture here. Yes we were most likely 10 years old or younger when we started watching this series but the fact of the matter is that we were also watching a heavily edited version of it for a reason, BECAUSE it wasnt exactly made for Grade Schoolers (ages 5-10yrs old). You guys sit up here all day and mock funimation for all the changes and say they should've given us a product more true to form, but had they done that i think its almost a guarantee that our viewing experiences would be different.

Doremon is a kid's show, Dragon Ball is a show for Teenagers, we just didnt know it at the time. A 17 year old could watch DB all day long, loudly and proudly and scoff at Power Rangers for being too kiddy at the same time because at their core only one of those franchises were made with a 17 year old in mind.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by TheNingen » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:33 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:07 pm Queer people are not allowed to exist in China. It is absolutely right-wing to regularly commit crimes against humanity.
Again, that's too simplistic. Extreme left-wing ideologies can (and have) committed crimes just as heinous than the most extreme right-wing governments. The USSR, Maoist China, and other communist governments are directly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.
This is exactly why I feel actual conversation in this day and age is useless. People get too emotional and hyperbolic to the point where they simply ignore the shit their own side does while boiling it down to the most simplistic level possible. It's fucking asinine. Shitty people exist on both sides of the spectrum regardless of ideology. And anyone calling Bernie Sanders of all people "right-wing" doesn't have any clue what they're talking about outside of their shallow, emotional lens. We've devolved so badly into "the sides" that we're blind to it.

Poly, I apologize in advance if it seems I'm ragging on you or arguing with you since I tweeted your quote. I actually find myself in agreement.

If the argument is going to be boiled down to the stupidly simple talking point of "If this person acts this way, they're not left/right!!!" then you are literally no better than any other of the stupid Twitter users arguing in their echo chambers. It's the same shit as punishing someone using jokes 10 years ago and trying to better themselves but then still holding it against them because they did it. You don't get through to people with emotional hyperbole. You don't get through to people by telling them what they are and what they're not. You turn them off.

So many of you preach about respect but you don't even practice it. And yes, I get it. I am the first to agree that a lot of people in this day and age don't reserve any bit of respect because they are too far gone thanks to the political divide. They are lost because of the emotional hyperbole. Because you know what ultimately inspires most of the shit that goes on? Emotions. So much of this immature diatribe is the reason actual conversation is dying. Most of you are hypocrites and your political leanings don't make you better when you're just as willing to partake in the same close-minded actions of the side you claim to so staunchly disagree with.

Poly is right. Extremism is not at all limited to a side. And there's plenty of intersections the more radical you go. And there are plenty of bad faith actors on the Left as there are on the Right. The sooner you actually open your eyes to that and stop reducing things to such a level, you may actually learn how to progress. Because reading this back-and-forth has been an eyesore and I wonder how many of you actual can function on a social level if *this* is how you talk to people you disagree with. Tribalism is a cancer. It always will be. You're not superior because you picked a side. You are sooo much more similar than you think to the others you complain about. Shaddy, you are an example of this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Shaddy » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:49 am

Oh boy, time to deconstruct a strawman!
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm This is exactly why I feel actual conversation in this day and age is useless. People get too emotional and hyperbolic to the point where they simply ignore the shit their own side does while boiling it down to the most simplistic level possible. It's fucking asinine.
It would be better to not say this in the same breath that you falsely equate the left and right, and while ignoring the differences between factions of one part of the political spectrum that are as far from each other as the left and right are.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm And anyone calling Bernie Sanders of all people "right-wing" doesn't have any clue what they're talking about outside of their shallow, emotional lens. We've devolved so badly into "the sides" that we're blind to it.
Well, you seem to consider anyone who does views liberal capitalist politicians as distinct from leftist ones to be a side perfectly fine to attacking, so I fail to see how you're any better other than thinking that falsely-equating the right and the left is the one true political position.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm Shitty people exist on both sides of the spectrum regardless of ideology.
Even if we accept this is wholly true with no caveats, it only works if you define "the spectrum" so broadly as to just include whichever people it needs to for you to dismiss both sides as the same, and it completely fails to account for the severity and frequency of the "shitty people", as well as how their actions relate to their ideology.

For example: I do not believe the entirety of the right to be reactionary white supremacists. The moderate right is called liberalism, the belief that the conservative capitalist ideal and the leftist democratic ideal can co-exist. I don't like liberals very much either, because they constantly enable and make exceptions for the absolutely-dogshit conservatives, but I would never consider them identical.

You seem to be fine with making vast political judgements so long as we pretend that the status quo is a fine thing to defend. But it's not fine. It's pretty terrible actually, and believe it or not, better things are possible.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm So many of you preach about respect but you don't even practice it. And yes, I get it. I am the first to agree that a lot of people in this day and age don't reserve any bit of respect because they are too far gone thanks to the political divide.
I dunno, it really just sounds like you don't respect anyone who doesn't act the way you're personally comfortable with.

This isn't even about respect, really, unless you're specifically trying to defend disrespecting trans people. It does not matter whether I respect a conservative's beliefs or not, because I don't need to change a conservative's mind for any reason. The left does well when it seeks the people conservatives are looking to oppress. Arguing with fascists on the internet only platforms their beliefs, and it's terrible optics to spend more time convincing a bigot than the people their ideology was designed to harm. It's not my fault if someone else here fails to respect that, but then, I'm not the one getting antsy over arbitrary misplacement of respect in the first place.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pmThey are lost because of the emotional hyperbole. Because you know what ultimately inspires most of the shit that goes on? Emotions. So much of this immature diatribe is the reason actual conversation is dying. Most of you are hypocrites and your political leanings don't make you better when you're just as willing to partake in the same close-minded actions of the side you claim to so staunchly disagree with.
If everyone else is the asshole, you're the asshole. You are so keen to dismiss everyone else with this "hyperbolic emotional hypocrite" caricature, while perpetuating the absolute political fantasy that two completely opposite positions can and should just suddenly drop what they're doing and "agree with each other", and you don't even try to examine exactly what the hell that would look like.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm Poly is right. Extremism is not at all limited to a side.
Nobody said extremism was limited to one side. There is in fact good extremism and bad extremism. Extremism is when people revolt against a tyrannical regime in the name of democracy, and it is when an oligarch orders his followers to overthrow a democratic election on false claims. Luke Skywalker is a political extremist, and so is Lord Voldemort.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pmAnd there's plenty of intersections the more radical you go.
Well no, there definitely isn't. An anarchist revolutionary who hates cops, wants to abolish prisons and destroy capitalism is not on the same side as the horse paste-chugging Qanonite who wants whites to rule over the other races with a massive militarized police force. The only similarity is that they don't like when the police act against them, but there's never going to be anti-police police.

The only argument for equating these two would be if you were to claim one of them is lying about their beliefs, but that claim is apparently off the table unless it's to defend someone from being considered right-wing.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pmAnd there are plenty of bad faith actors on the Left as there are on the Right.
Certainly not as many, though! You can tell by the fact that as of 2017, 90% of all terrorist attacks, and one hundred percent of the attacks which resulted in deaths, were committed by conservative and religious extremists in the United States. I'm sure newer numbers could differ, but the absolutely enormous disparity in the frequency and violence is such that anyone calling them the same is either an apologist or a fool.

But please, compare that to someone who blocked you on twitter. I'm sure that's just as bad.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm So many of you preach about respect but you don't even practice it. And yes, I get it. I am the first to agree that a lot of people in this day and age don't reserve any bit of respect because they are too far gone thanks to the political divide. They are lost because of the emotional hyperbole. Because you know what ultimately inspires most of the shit that goes on? Emotions. So much of this immature diatribe is the reason actual conversation is dying. Most of you are hypocrites and your political leanings don't make you better when you're just as willing to partake in the same close-minded actions of the side you claim to so staunchly disagree with.
You are saying we're reducing things when we say it's wrong to reduce far-left politics to "Joseph Stalin". People with different beliefs do in fact believe different things. Whether you decide to be obstinate and pretend that "the left" somehow traffics equally between fucking Kropotkin and Lenin or not, you must contend with the fact that the things people want and the things you're claiming they want when you try to dismiss them are different things.

Your cadence does not make your idea of "functioning" in this type of situation very well-founded. You're behaving way worse right now than polyphase ever did.
TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pmTribalism is a cancer. It always will be. You're not superior because you picked a side. You are sooo much more similar than you think to the others you complain about. Shaddy, you are an example of this.
I would never claim that picking a side makes you superior. After all, you picked a side and it's a very stupid and lazy one.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Skar » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:09 am

TheNingen wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pmThis is exactly why I feel actual conversation in this day and age is useless. People get too emotional and hyperbolic to the point where they simply ignore the shit their own side does while boiling it down to the most simplistic level possible. It's fucking asinine. Shitty people exist on both sides of the spectrum regardless of ideology. And anyone calling Bernie Sanders of all people "right-wing" doesn't have any clue what they're talking about outside of their shallow, emotional lens. We've devolved so badly into "the sides" that we're blind to it.
I lived in a country that had a monarchy and it was frowned upon to discuss politics. They had minor local elections but that's as far you can criticize. In a developed country like the US, you have the freedom to give your opinion so I'm open to hearing other views and don't judge.

I had an economics professor who used to work at a major bank and said he hasn't voted since the 90s. He would always quote the founding fathers' warnings about the threat and consequences of central bank intervention. Inflation, currency devaluation, unsustainable debt, etc and he felt neither party was doing anything to prevent it. This was back in the early 2010s when I took his class. Since then Federal Reserve balance sheet went from less than $1 trillion to almost 8 trillion and growing while overall debt has grown to over $85 trillion.

He also talked about unfunded liabilities for pensions, social security, and other government programs that have reach over $45 trillion. These are legitimate concerns because many economics consider it mathematically impossible to reduce debt or fulfill these obligations at this point. These are major issues that will affect the entire country regardless of who you voted for. I don't claim to know who's the best choice but I'm an average nobody who votes and hopes for the best.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by omaro34 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:02 pm

Alkiser wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:05 am Political correctness is a cancer that has been trying to get into anime and manga for a long time, these people completely don't understand Toriyama's humor or the atmosphere of the series, they try to fight something they don't know.
watch episode 89 of Dragonball super where Roshi goes full on perv mode and you might have a different opinion

They can easily just cut that stuff out and continue the series
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:24 pm

Political correctness is "grown ups don't want kids seeing unrepentant and swept aside sexual assault in media." I dunno, sounds pretty cool to me.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by omaro34 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:27 pm

I can't believe Roshi's antics as a perv is still an issue today, and that it survived all these years despite the change in societal thinking. It should have been taken out long ago, and I know that fans have been talking about this for years. It's nothing new.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by omaro34 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:29 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:24 pm Political correctness is "grown ups don't want kids seeing unrepentant and swept aside sexual assault in media." I dunno, sounds pretty cool to me.
I believe that fits the definition of what the far right calls "Woke".
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Aim » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:10 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:33 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:07 pm Queer people are not allowed to exist in China. It is absolutely right-wing to regularly commit crimes against humanity.
Again, that's too simplistic. Extreme left-wing ideologies can (and have) committed crimes just as heinous than the most extreme right-wing governments. The USSR, Maoist China, and other communist governments are directly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.
China and the USSR weren’t extremely left wing, Stalin literally killed those who didn’t meet the quota for grain, don’t get me started on the blatant reactionary behaviour of both societies.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:11 am

Forgive the late response to this post, as I somehow missed it until yesterday.
Shaddy wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:34 pmI wasn't even really trying to highlight it as a masterpiece of humor or anything, just that it's not as gross and misogynist as it could be.
Totally 100% agreed. Despite the wordiness of my response about it, I certainly wasn't in any way trying to indicate that I found the joke to be some sublime, pinnacle example of comedy excellence or anything of the sort.

Shaddy wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:34 pmThat said Kunzait, I'm not sure if the "stop acting stereotypical" argument is the best one for you to make here. Transphobes and reactionary grifters are going to be shitheads no matter what julie does
Since it apparently bears repeating: I was not in ANY which way speaking of or concerned about the thoughts and behavior of right wing reactionary hucksters in my previous response. Its of course beyond obvious that those people will simply keep on keeping on with their grift and sick behavior and treatment of minorities, completely irrespective of what anyone has to say about it. They are not at all who I was concerned with.

My concern was regarding a far larger pool of average, completely apolitical and disengaged people who comprise the broader bulk of internet geek culture communities. The internet equivalent of "normies" in other words.

It'd be FAR easier and simpler if 100% of every single person that we encounter online who spouts reactionary rhetoric and talking points were ALL universally every last one of them the worst of the worst sort of reactionary conman and swindle-artist. Because then they could all, to a last man, be completely disregarded and swept aside en masse.

But that isn't at all the messy reality of the current online landscape for much of the past 6 or 7 years now. In reality the reactionary pipeline/rabbit hole is a lot more like an onion: it has countless layers to it, and the vast, broader spectrum of people out there online are currently situated at all kinds of varying layers down that pipeline.

I apologize that this is speaking largely to my own experiences in dealing with this crap for the past 5/6 years now. I genuinely don't mean to downplay or frontload this before the concerns of people like Julie, or are obviously and without question of MUCH greater priority and concern. Without getting bogged down in too much detail, I spent a lot of the past 5 years or so doing volunteer work for a few various groups and online collectives that were dedicated to attempting to deradicalize, deprogram, and rehabilitate alt-right/reactionary guys and pull them back to sanity and basic humanity. By now, I've worked with tons of these guys, in both group settings and on a one on one basis.

I haven't been doing some of that work as much since the start of the pandemic, but I've still been keeping in regular contact with a bunch of the former alt-right guys that I've worked with over the past few years. The stories of the people who end up down that rabbit hole are of course numerous and varied; but there are tons and tons of overlap and commonalities between them that after awhile are impossible to ignore or brush aside.

For SOME portion of them (hardly all let me stress, but a significant enough of a chunk), one of the things that it took to initially knock something loose in their head and get them started down the path of questioning the propaganda that they were being constantly fed was someone within a minority group that they'd been conditioned to demonize (black people, LGBTQ people, Muslims, what have you) actually just having some degree of patience with them and just talking to them and treating them like a person for a moment instead of just immediately labeling them as "the enemy" or whatnot and attacking them on sight (which is what the propaganda they were being fed was conditioning them to expect: that they would be despised and mistreated by all within these minority communities no matter what, so they must "fight back" in kind).

It took an exchange or instance with the objects of their hatred that forced these guys to view these people as people with individual humanity, and not as some mindless, Zerg-like mob or swarm coming to "get them" or or "cancel them" or what have you (which is what so much of the online content that they've been mainlining for the past 7 years has amped them up to believe).

And no do not in any way misunderstand: this isn't me trying to put the bulk of the onus on the left or on minorities to treat reactionaries with kid gloves. I am in no way under the delusion that all it'll take to put an end to most of this is for all of us to treat every single reactionary we meet like they're as delicate as fine China glass, give them all a great big hug, and they'll all just come to their senses and drop all the blind, senseless hate that's fueling them. DO NOT FOR A SECOND take that message away from what I'm trying to convey here.

This is unfortunately however an INCREDIBLY tricky, delicate subject in general (and like so much of life, is steeped in a morass of gray areas) because this isn't a cartoon mob of supervillains that we're up against here: as grotesque and sickening as their behavior and actions are, as twisted and repulsive as their existence as a collective is, and as unquestionably straight up evil as what it is that they all collectively represent is... at the end of the day, there is still in MANY of these cases an actual human being that is still buried somewhere beneath all the mountains and layers of hysterical fear, paranoia, meticulous brainwashing and grooming, psychological damage, and straight up personality disorders that act as the foundation upon which all their delusional beliefs are rooted.

I need to stress that in no way am I suggesting that ALL of these people are in any which way "reachable" or salvageable: TONS of these guys are "too far gone" cases, and those people should in NO way be underestimated or be treated with anything at all close to a "soft approach". That isn't my point at all.

What my point ultimately is is that the greater whole of the online reactionary movement is made up of a GIANT clusterfuck of a mix of people who are at a whole slew of varyingly different "layers" of the reactionary/alt-right onion: and where they are on that spectrum can usually more or less be used as a rough indicator of how "reachable" and open to being talked down from the ledge they are. What I am saying is that it is a HUGE mistake (for the broader Left, or really for ANYONE who takes this problem the least bit seriously) to view or treat EVERY online rando you meet who is spouting reactionary nonsense as if they are ALL every last one to an individual as far deep into the "unreachable" and "unsalvageable" deepest core of the reactionary onion.

The reality is that it is a HUGE mixed bag of people who are at different stages of the indoctrination/mental programming process: and don't for a minute let anyone dissuade you from understanding that yes, at this point it is VERY much a highly meticulous and organized propaganda/mass grooming and brainwashing effort that's at the heart of a lot of this, that with a little due diligence will show you is ultimately financially tied largely to many of the same much older Neo Nazi/hate movement organizations that have existed since 40/50 years ago.

They've just migrated the focus of their recruitment efforts from trailer park and "white trash" communities to online neckbeard/nerd havens like 4chan, furry communities, or nerd forums dedicated to things like Pokemon, Smash Bros, etc. over the course of the past 15 years or so in the digital/internet era (since the personality and background makeup of these communities that makes them so pliable to this sort of propaganda effort overlap so well with one another).

SOME chunk of these people are still not so far enough down that rabbit hole that they can't be turned back around from it with some degree of just basic communication skill and effort to empathize with them. Again however, that still doesn't detract from the reality there is also a LOT of much more severe, and genuinely dangerous guys within the same mix who are in NO way reciprocating of such treatment - from minorities or anyone else - and are a LOT more unstable and dangerous. NO person - minority or otherwise - can or should be asked to risk themselves trying to get through to those people.

What it all ultimately comes down to is basic human judgement from moment to moment, day to day, individual case by individual case. Just taking a quick moment to ask yourself "does this person give me any remote indication that there might be something, some shred or vestige still left in there that I can get through to, or no?" Sometimes the answer is yes, many times its no. But it SHOULDN'T ever be treated like its all one big, samey blanket of "no, its NEVER worth it to try, ever". Sometimes it actually IS worth the time and effort to try, and those are some of the more crucial cases when it comes to trying to fight back against this broader problem.

And also understand that because hate groups have been moving their recruitment efforts into online nerd communities like this one here, understand how INCREDIBLY EASY (and likely) it is for some reactionary that you encounter to be from a community EXACTLY LIKE this one (if not this one specifically even).

At this point, I have more than enough experience clocked as a decades longtime community member here (who's gotten to intimately know on a personal level a vast chunk of longtime posters here since more than 16 years ago now) as well as working within alt-right deradicalization groups online to recognize the horrible reality that many of the former alt-right people we've helped deprogram over the years could EASILY be almost ANYONE who posts here on Kanzenshuu. Easily. Don't for a SECOND convince yourself otherwise.

THAT'S ultimately why I get concerned and worried about "playing into the right wing framework" (which has NOTHING to do with my wanting to put any undue pressure onto anyone who's in a marginalized community like Julie to hold themselves in any which way "responsible" for how reactionaries behave or think), and its also why I encourage there to be MORE real world-centered discussions on this site, despite that being offtopic to Dragon Ball.

Because this problem with systematic, targeted right wing radicalization among online nerd/geek communities is a problem that DIRECTLY concerns a place like Kanzenshuu, and there've been more than a few longtime Kanz members who HAVE been sucked down that reactionary pipeline over the past 6 years or so.

Banning all of them is certainly one way of fighting back against it (I'm certainly not against deplatforming efforts when it comes to hate groups, as its been long proven to work and be an effective counter-measure): but I also think its equally if not more important for there to be more open discourse on certain real world topics on places like this, if for no other reason than to help undercut and push back against the ABSURD levels of apolitical ignorance and obliviousness that's at the heart of at least part of the reason for why its been so easy for online right wing predators to take advantage of communities like this one.

Obviously though, the people who's concerns and needs come WELL above and before those of even the most relatively reachable amongst reactionary-types are those of vulnerable communities like the trans community, of people like Julie. Absolutely unquestionably so and its not even close at all. To that point:

Shaddy wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:34 pmI think your reading of the joke is more accurate, but you spending several paragraphs clarifying the reasons you're a rational non-transphobic person before you tell her she's not-only wrong about this kinda-subjective thing but also somehow "playing into the right's hand" should maybe signal that your reasoning is not airtight? It reads a bit "asking random muslims to personally disavow al-qaeda" to me.
This is a very critically important and salient point that you're making here. I'm very glad you said this, and I want to take a moment to deeply apologize to Julie for my in any remote way making her feel like I was putting too much onus or weight of reactionary deconversion onto her.

It is in NO WAY incumbent upon people in marginalized communities to put themselves at risk trying to get through to these people. That's part of one of the reasons that I got involved in that effort myself: because I'm not in a vulnerable minority community myself, I have a much relatively bigger buffer against the risk to my own person when making those efforts.

Anyone who is themselves part of a marginalized group and who chooses to do that sort of work (and I've known some of my share of them) is obviously immensely heroic and brave for doing it: but it isn't nor should in any way be required of them to take up that burden, since they aren't the ones for whom the onus of the problem belongs to.

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:44 pmY'all, I spend 99.99% trying to be the 'model token tranny'. I can't be expected to hand-hold centrists and liberals who haven't met another trans person before all the fucking time.
Yeah, again Julie, I'm genuinely sorry if I made you feel like I was trying to place any of that burden on you. Entirely my fault, and partly a product of my being hair-trigger at trying to pre-emptively cut off people within settings like this one from getting further pulled into far right, reactionary thinking. My deepest, upmost apologies for getting carried away with myself.

Shaddy wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:34 pmI mean, it could be easy for me to make the same argument, saying you're playing the cishet white male feminist strawman talking over LGBT people for not meeting your personal standards (the 'Kankri Vantas', as I call him), but I'm not going to do that because that's stupid
Point well made and taken. Again, that sort of stereotype is something I usually am WAY more cautious and self-conscious about, and I'm sorry once again if I in any remote way lapsed into that.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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