Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:51 am

Like Abed said, I do enjoy the whole secluded legendary wise martial artist sensei that lives alone and only wants to read porn and fantasize about hot girls thing. What else can you do if you live on a deserted island for so long? he's a jerk-off and wants his students to introduce some women to him, but then everything goes to hell, he sneaks into their bathroom, grabs their boobs, etc.

It's Oolong who crosses the line first, though. Extremely soon and extremely illegal.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:22 am

Shaddy wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:46 pm The best "Roshi is a pervert" joke I can remember is the "Turtle School Training Uniform" bit, because it involves Roshi willfully denigrating himself to convince Lunch to put on the outfit herself, which is a lot more clever and a lot less rapey.
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Toriyama: "Men being feminine is funny because being feminine is inherently bad. Lolz"

EDIT: Glad I got another Kunzait post to do all the work for me. Phew.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:46 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:22 am
Shaddy wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:46 pm The best "Roshi is a pervert" joke I can remember is the "Turtle School Training Uniform" bit, because it involves Roshi willfully denigrating himself to convince Lunch to put on the outfit herself, which is a lot more clever and a lot less rapey.
Image
Toriyama: "Men being feminine is funny because being feminine is inherently bad. Lolz"
Are you missing the point on purpose?

Its not a jab at femininity, its Roshi trying to be sly in getting what he wants (seeing his new lady acquaintance in lingerie). The panel perfectly displays their personalities, Goku's naivety has him being confused, Roshi keeping a poker face and Krillin is completely aware of what's going on and thus its making him smile.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:53 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:46 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:22 am
Shaddy wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:46 pm The best "Roshi is a pervert" joke I can remember is the "Turtle School Training Uniform" bit, because it involves Roshi willfully denigrating himself to convince Lunch to put on the outfit herself, which is a lot more clever and a lot less rapey.
Image
Toriyama: "Men being feminine is funny because being feminine is inherently bad. Lolz"
Are you missing the point on purpose?

Its not a jab at femininity, its Roshi trying to be sly in getting what he wants (seeing his new lady acquaintance in lingerie). The panel perfectly displays their personalities, Goku's naivety has him being confused, Roshi keeping a poker face and Krillin is completely aware of what's going on and thus its making him smile.
No, I'm saying "men in dresses" and 'traditionally feminine' shit being used for gags is eye-rolling enducive and offensive. The gag is "Men don't wear 'feminine' clothes, so Roushi acting pathetic enough to wear one is funny!" and that is really shitty because it re-enforced traditional gender roles and tells the readers (kids) to laugh at being different.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:58 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:53 amenducive
Is that a word?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:02 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:58 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:53 amenducive
Is that a word?
Apparently not. I originally wrote 'inducive' but Chrome gave me the little red underline so I'm like, "Fuck it, change it to an 'e'." :crazy:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:04 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:53 am No, I'm saying "men in dresses" and 'traditionally feminine' shit being used for gags is eye-rolling enducive and offensive. The gag is "Men don't wear 'feminine' clothes, so Roushi acting pathetic enough to wear one is funny!" and that is really shitty because it re-enforced traditional gender roles and tells the readers (kids) to laugh at being different.
That's literally the exact opposite of what's going on though, He's wearing the dress to persuade Lunch to wear it, he's not "acting pathetic" and moping around or prancing around like he's in Too Wong Foo. Its just a means to an end. The context of the situation is what helps the scene become funnier than just looking at a couple dudes in women's lingerie.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:17 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:53 amNo, I'm saying "men in dresses" and 'traditionally feminine' shit being used for gags is eye-rolling enducive and offensive. The gag is "Men don't wear 'feminine' clothes, so Roushi acting pathetic enough to wear one is funny!" and that is really shitty because it re-enforced traditional gender roles and tells the readers (kids) to laugh at being different.
Yeah uh... no. I'm sorry, but I gotta part ways with you on this one Julie.

Look, there are a TON of Muten Roshi being a gropy sleaze gags throughout DB (especially in the anime) that are in no way remotely ok or funny or cute and are just creeptastic as hell. This lingerie one though? This is not only one of the more genuinely clever examples, its honestly about as genuinely cute and innocent of a "sex perv" gag as I've ever seen.

Ordinarily, its very often white cis hetero guys (since we've been almost arbitrarily christened the "standard default" setting for humanity - with everything else as an aberration in some way - by much of society, which is incredibly stupid in and of itself) who need to be constantly reminded "Hey schmuck, stop and take two seconds to think outside of just yourself for a moment and maybe try to place yourself in someone else's shoes for a change."

But in the interest of complete and total fairness here, I'm going to take a moment to flip that around to Julie here, at least for just this one instance here.

Julie, please don't take this the wrong way here: but not everyone is or must be gender queer/trans etc. Being cis/straight is just as legit and just as ok as being trans/gay etc.

What I mean is, speaking as a cis hetero guy myself... I don't have the slightest interest or desire to dress in feminine clothing. For a very simple reason: its uncomfortable. Its not me, its not who I am. I am not in any which way a feminine person. Just the same as for you (and most trans women) having to be forced to act as a male for so much of your life is such an incredibly painful and awful experience... the same exact thing applies to cis/straight people if you were to force us to have to dress and act in a manner that goes against what our own gender identity happens to be. We'd feel much the same way as most trans people prior to their "awakening" then under those circumstances.

I obviously can't speak for you or for your pre-trans experience, since I don't know you that well beyond our interactions over the years within this community: but I have been very, very close friends throughout my entire life with a number of trans women (and some trans men here or there). One of my very closest friends since high school has been a trans woman for some time now. And I'll never forget what her description of what life was like for her before her transition was:

"It was like every single day was Halloween, and I was forced to dress in a costume and act like someone who I wasn't, whether I wanted to or not."

If you were to hypothetically flip things around, and have trans people be the "dominant" role in society, and have them force all cis/straight people to dress opposite to how we feel inside... then we'd be in a similar/comparable position. We'd be uncomfortable, feel like we're being forced to be something we're not every day, and would generally be miserable. I know I would. And it has nothing to do with me being "anti-feminine". I love femininity, I've had tons of incredibly close friends and family (male and female) who are plenty fem and girly. But its just not me. I'm just hardwired as a masculine dude, same way that you're hardwired feminine.

Obviously that isn't what most trans people want either (contrary to what a lot of reactionaries try and ludicrously claim). But takes like this that you're putting forth here aren't helpful either (I'll get to why in a moment).

To bring this back around to how it relates to the lingerie gag: the point of the joke isn't "feminine = bad". The point of the joke is that Muten Roshi is putting himself and his two students - none of whom are women or trans women in any way, shape, or form - and dress themselves in something that would be SUPER uncomfortable and awkward as hell for any straight/cis man to have to dress in purely so he can see Lunch dress the same. And its awkward for cis/hetero men not because to us "feminine = bad": but because that type of stuff just isn't what we feel comfortable or "ourselves" wearing.

On the spectrum of "Muten Roshi is a horndog" jokes? This is about as harmless and innocent of one as you're ever going to find, and its genuinely clever.

And the bigger issue with your take that you're putting forward? It plays into reactionary right wing stereotypes about "the SJW left". Right Wing Reactionary thinking tends to be inherently paranoid and conspiratorial. One of the notions that the reactionary right keeps trying to put out there is that the LGBTQ community won't be happy until they "force" literally everyone in society to be trans/gay in some way (which is also pure projection on their end, since they literally try to force everyone else around them to conform to cis/hetero norms). Which, obviously, is the exact opposite of true.

I'm not trying to play mind reader or armchair psychic here: I don't pretend for a moment to know what's going on in your head or what it is that you're feeling. But what I am going to tell you is what takes like yours above often signal to cis/straight people who don't have a very good grasp on LGBTQ issues:

It puts them very needlessly on the defensive, because most cis/hetero people don't read that joke as "feminine = bad" (some almost certainly do I'm sure, but I don't think those people are the norm and would probably tend to be the types of people who would try and over-analyze ANYTHING they see as "pro-masculine/anti-feminine" across countless other media examples around them).

They instead read it exactly the way I described: "that would be uncomfortable and embarrassing for those characters to wear because they're not women". Mixed with (if they're a cis male audience at least) "that would be uncomfortable and embarrassing FOR ME to wear, because I'm not a woman". Most people when they read fiction project themselves onto characters they most identify with: any cis/straight person reading that joke is going to imagine themselves in Roshi/Goku/Kuririn's shoes and think to themselves "Oh man, that must be awkward!" Not "Oh man that would be terrible, because anything remotely feminine innately sucks." That's a TOTAL misread of the context.

Yes, the joke is framed from a cis/heteronormative perspective, obviously. Yes, the fact that MOST things across most mainstream media are framed from a cis-heteronormative point of view IS a very real and serious problem: but that's a VERY broad reaching and cumulative problem that neither Dragon Ball nor ANY one singular work of media should be solely held to account for perpetuating. And aside from that MUCH broader context, this specific joke is in NO WAY coming from a remotely hateful, bigoted, or misogynistic place.

In a way, your read of the joke (that its signaling some kind of more broad, universal anti-femininity) reads to cis/hetero people as you being reactionary, but from the left instead of the right. It comes across as you going out of your way to look for something to be offended by. Which is EXACTLY the shitty stereotype that right wing shitheads are constantly trying to press about "the Left" more broadly (and they've been WAY too successful at it as it is). The way you're (in my opinion, over-reacting) towards this incredibly simple, innocuous joke is the type of think that's only going to reinforce the Right Wing framing of "the sensitive snowflake SJW left trying to 'cancel' everything".

Its both not at all accurate and genuinely unfair towards the individual joke in question, AND its unhelpful and not at all constructive in a more broader, general framing of left advocacy. ESPECIALLY in a community like this one, which is (by and large at least)... insanely not at all plugged into very much that goes on in the world outside of nerd media shit; and generally and unfortunately never has been until somewhat/kinda/sorta VERY stupidly fucking recently.

A ton of people who post here probably ONLY (or at least very much predominantly) get their framing of socio-political issues from (largely HEAVILY right-leaning) Youtubers and Social Media influencers who largely only or primarily bring up "politics" as it pertains to "Some sensitive libtard SJW snowflake trying to cancel the latest geek media thing that we all love over something silly and ridiculous! Rah! Angry!".

So seeing these kinds of posts, where you're taking a joke that most people (I would say more or less correctly) don't derive very much in the way of "misogyny" from (and instead see it as a very simple slapstick gag) and going through quite a few extra steps to try and take the most uncharitable read of it possible: what that does, in the minds of people who don't know a lot of LGBTQ people and who primarily get their media diet from internet nerd shit, is reinforce and back up what they see as "the Radical Left's anti-masculine agenda".

Obviously I know that's not what you're trying to do: that'd be beyond ridiculous and stupid. I'm just describing to you the EFFECT that what you're saying here has on people who aren't queer and who are largely isolated from queer people in their day to day lives. It puts them on the defensive (in a way that isn't at all necessary in the first place), it makes them feel like "the Left is as unfair and unreasonable as the Right claims they are", and it further perpetuates insanely stupid bullshit in these geek media spaces that keep needing to be debunked constantly, time and again.

Just... take a step back for a moment, really try and THINK about this for a minute. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who actually IS cis/hetero (just like us cis/heteros keep telling our own to put themselves in the shoes of queer people constantly) and who ISN'T queer (and who furthermore doesn't know many people who are queer and who simply and quite frankly doesn't understand nuanced social issues very well at all), and think about how what you're saying here is going to translate to them most likely.

I'm not trying to be combative against you, and I'm certainly not trying to "reinforce cis/hetero norms" or anything of the sort. I'm just telling you to stop and think before you react overly-aggressively towards some of these things and to maybe pick your battles a bit more carefully. Making yourself appear or come off like every shitty Right Wing stereotype paints "liberal SJWs" as being isn't a smart way to go about this stuff and it certainly doesn't help drag what is already a beyond ridiculous current social dynamic back to anything resembling a sensible or reasonable point.

Yes, I know its fucking EXHAUSTING and infuriatingly frustrating to have to do that because SO many people in straight/cis society do not and in many cases patently REFUSE to extend to you that very same courtesy (trying to see things from your perspective). Yes the dynamics are fucking unfair and are absolute shit for queer people to have to always be the ones to play the role of "ambassador/diplomat" toward cis/straight people, even as much of cis/straight society is so unbearably hostile and shitty towards you. I get and totally sympathize with the general temptations to just go "Fuck ALL of you!" and just lash out at everyone. And god knows most queer people are beyond entitled to some of that every so often.

But broadly speaking overall, end of the day: it just isn't constructive. And over enough time and too many such instances, it only drives people away who are otherwise winnable and can be made to understand with just a bit more patience. Yeah, that patience can be incredibly taxing, and its draining on a day to day basis: but long-term, its necessary if we're ever going to get past a lot of this absurd shit.

And plus, in all sincerity, this particular joke in question here GENUINELY just ISN'T nearly as inherently misogynistic as you're making it out to be and thinking it is. Believe me, if I legitimately though it was or read it as such, I'd have your back on this and wouldn't be writing this response. But it just ain't there, and you're going hard after something that just isn't that big of a deal here for most people (even trans people: yes I have at least a few trans friends who are also DB/manga fans, and I've not only literally never once heard them complain about this gag, they genuinely laugh at it and find it to be cute).

Which is exactly what hatemongers are trying to spin about ALL queer people (and their allies): that we're all unpleasable, unreasonable, hyper-reactionary, and just want to go after and "cancel" everyone and everything over the slightest, tiny thing that offends us and to "control" everything (which again, is sheer projection, because all of that's EXACTLY what THEY'RE ultimately trying to do).

So don't give them that ammo. Stop and think, and try to also see things from the perspective of cis/straight people who AREN'T hateful or bigoted, but are just genuinely and sincerely fucking clueless and in the dark about a lot of this shit. Most people, on average (setting aside obvious examples to the contrary), push comes to shove are NOT looking to go out of their way to be hateful, and more often than not when they come to hateful positions, its more often out of genuine, sincere ignorance than it is actual willful malice.

Again, the root of the joke isn't "this is funny because femininity sucks". The root of the humor here is "this is funny because this is just a generally awkward position for these specific/particular characters to be in". Not EVERYONE in the world is queer nor MUST they be queer, and that's ok. Just like a significant chunk of people in the world ARE queer, and that's ok too.

If there's any real issue here, its that we generally just need more humor and more creative writing in general that is conceptualized from a queer and non-cis-heteronormative perspective IN GENERAL. That I'll co-sign onto 10,000%. That doesn't mean though that going after and browbeating jokes, humor, and stories that are written from a cis-heteronormative perspective but aren't otherwise going out of their way to be hateful or misogynistic or bigoted (like this particular one here in DB) is in any which way good or constructive or helpful to anything (including to LGBTQ voices). All that does is make cis/hetero people who would otherwise be allies feel like they're being needlessly attacked for no good reason over minor and petty nonsense.

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:58 amYeah, I'm just saying that kunzait's essay seemed to be implying that the further left you go, the better.
That's not at all what I was even remotely indicating. Almost everything in life is contextual: very few things are universally so black and white (some things certainly are for sure, but not most things overall).

In the context of today's current political landscape? That we've been locked into some permutation thereof for... a good few decades at least? The overall mainstream has been dragged WAY too far to the right for WAY too long now. Anyone who is busy handwringing over "yeah but what if we go too far left?" is being both incredibly counter-productive and fairly detached from the current present day reality.

I'll use another metaphor to illustrate what I mean: pretend we're all heading down a road in a speeding car that has no breaks. Someone jerked the steering wheel hard and sharply to the right and now the car, with all of us piled inside, is speeding off the road and towards a solid brick wall. How then do you correct that situation? Do you yank the wheel even FURTHER towards the right and MORE off the road toward the brick wall? Or do you maybe GENTLY nudge the wheel just a hairline to the left, which... isn't going to do too much? Or do you yank the wheel back hard toward the left to try and AVOID the wall entirely and to actually get us all back on the road?

Because THAT'S illustrative of the current, present situation that we've been in now for some time. The socio-political axis has been WAY too skewed too sharply rightward for literally decades and decades now. A slight bump toward the left just isn't going to fucking cut it or do much of jack shit for the current problems we're facing. In the context of today's socio-political issues, you NEED a hard-left swerve to avoid the kinds of disasters that are no longer just fast bearing down on us... but that are already here, right now.

Anything less than that, in the context of the current issues, is just going to continue to get more and more people needlessly killed/have their lives ruined.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:08 pm

That speeding car analogy is a nice way to put it.

I think that Julie does have a point, but I personally agree that effort is probably better placed elsewhere. I think it's a pretty funny gag, and wouldn't have even thought about those implications if Julie hadn't mentioned it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:32 pm

Yeah, the joke was that they were going to wear that to practice martial arts, it's unconfortable to wear that if you're going to be running and rolling around.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Shaddy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:34 pm

I wasn't even really trying to highlight it as a masterpiece of humor or anything, just that it's not as gross and misogynist as it could be.

That said Kunzait, I'm not sure if the "stop acting stereotypical" argument is the best one for you to make here. Transphobes and reactionary grifters are going to be shitheads no matter what julie does. I think your reading of the joke is more accurate, but you spending several paragraphs clarifying the reasons you're a rational non-transphobic person before you tell her she's not-only wrong about this kinda-subjective thing but also somehow "playing into the right's hand" should maybe signal that your reasoning is not airtight? It reads a bit "asking random muslims to personally disavow al-qaeda" to me.

I mean, it could be easy for me to make the same argument, saying you're playing the cishet white male feminist strawman talking over LGBT people for not meeting your personal standards (the 'Kankri Vantas', as I call him), but I'm not going to do that because that's stupid
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:39 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:17 pmJulie: not everyone is gender queer/trans etc.
So then wearing 'feminine' clothing is inherently 'queer' or non-cishet? Like, labels like 'bi', 'lesbian', 'gay', 'non-binary' or 'queer' any other term is all self-identified. Even being cishet is a self-identified label. What I'm getting at is that there's nothing inherently queer about anything. These are all things that individuals--which inevitably might make up a sort of 'societal common consensus--actually, I'm going to stop myself mid-sentence and use simple words to distill what I'm meaning into two words: no rules. Nothing about this has any rules.

My concern with how Toriyama (a guy who I suppose we'll all assume is cishet and isn't aware of the actual existence of non-cishet folks in the real world?) uses sexuality and gender lies in that he's using tropes like "'men' in generally deigned 'feminine' clothing are funny" as if it's to be part of a joke. I don't get the 'joke' behind the case or what Toriyama as a writer is thinking because I don't see clothing as being gendered in anyway and I think it's just a weird point to do with clothing what he's trying to do in that scene. This is coming off the heels of Senbei pretending to be a woman to buy Arale clothes in Dr. Slump, too, which is a tried-and-true transmisogynistic trope.
Kunzait_83 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:17 pmBeing cis/straight is as legit as being trans/gay etc.

What I mean is, speaking as a cis hetero guy myself... I don't have the slightest interest or desire to dress in feminine clothing. For a very simple reason: its uncomfortable. Its not me, its not who I am. I am not in any which way a feminine person. Just the same as for you (and most trans women) having to be forced to act as a male for so much of your life is such an incredibly painful and awful experience... the same exact thing applies to cis/straight people if you were to force us to have to dress and act in a manner that goes against what our own gender identity happens to be. We'd feel much the same way as most trans people prior to their "awakening" then under those circumstances.
Being cishet doesn't get you murdered, raped and ridiculed so I don't think we need to be saying shit like this. Forgive me for being so crass as to openly roll my eyes but I really don't think you need to tell a bi trans woman (especially a non-passing one) about what is or isn't 'legit' when she's the one arguing that "cishet men should be able to wear the clothing they like without having their gender questioned or used as part of a gag."

Am I insane? Am I misreading what you're saying here? Because, again, presentation doesn't mean anything about one's gender. Plenty of trans women enjoy wearing 'masculine' clothing. Plenty of trans men enjoy wearing makeup or dresses. Enbies too! It's totally valid if you, a real life human being, get gender dysphoria from certain clothing. I do, too! Hell, the clothing I'm wearing right now as I type that make me feel uncomfortable but I'm stuck wearing it for the time being due to circumstances. Roushi isn't a real person, though, he's a fictional character being written by a cishet, gender-conforming man, who is improperly asserting his view as fact. There's no message coming from the comic of the validity of gender variance. The message is "look at Roushi, who is so perverted, that to get Lunch to wear skimpy clothing he'll wear it himself and pass it off as martial arts clothing!" It's linking Roushi's sexual harassment and perverse with what 'society' or 'common sense' views as gender non-conforming. The gag of getting a woman to wear only underwear for the sake of Roushi's perversion itself is inappropriate in a children's comic in the first place but to drag in what society might call queerness is just another part that makes me roll my eyes. That's my criticism.

I mean, yeah, if a right-wing reactionary wants to cry 'woke SJW crybaby', like, they're going to do that no matter what. Fuck, I get worse remarks dealing with the public all day. The keyboard warriors owning the libs can keep typing all they like, I eat worse for breakfast.

Anyway, I've said what I have to say on the subject (at least as far as this post have gone). I hate repeating myself so I hope that 未来のJULIE doesn't do that. She probably will, though, the dumb bitch juice drinker she is.
Shaddy wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:34 pm I wasn't even really trying to highlight it as a masterpiece of humor or anything, just that it's not as gross and misogynist as it could be.
Hey, I hope you don't think I meant that comment at all in reference to you, either. Just want to clarify that I was simply using your post as a springboard. Zero ire towards you at all and I've loved your posts lately (forgive me Preaching to the Choir by saying such, too lolz).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:47 pm

I personally never thought anything of the lingerie gag.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Shaddy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:56 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:39 pm Hey, I hope you don't think I meant that comment at all in reference to you, either. Just want to clarify that I was simply using your post as a springboard. Zero ire towards you at all and I've loved your posts lately (forgive me Preaching to the Choir by saying such, too lolz).
Oh I wasn't taking it personally, plus if anyone saw my reddit alt they'd know I'm far from being against feminine men Image

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:59 pm

Shaddy wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:56 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:39 pm Hey, I hope you don't think I meant that comment at all in reference to you, either. Just want to clarify that I was simply using your post as a springboard. Zero ire towards you at all and I've loved your posts lately (forgive me Preaching to the Choir by saying such, too lolz).
Oh I wasn't taking it personally, plus if anyone saw my reddit alt they'd know I'm far from being against feminine men Image
AYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But yeah, no, sorry, I read somewhere once (which I could remember where) that it's a trauma response to bend over backward to overly explain one's self so that someone doesn't think they meant anything negative by what they said. Or was that an Autistic thing? I can't remember, which is probably an ADHD thing. :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Yuji » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:09 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:47 pm I personally never thought anything of the lingerie gag.
Because there's no reason to. Julie is reading and projecting too much into it as usual.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by The Monkey King » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:20 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:22 am
Shaddy wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:46 pm The best "Roshi is a pervert" joke I can remember is the "Turtle School Training Uniform" bit, because it involves Roshi willfully denigrating himself to convince Lunch to put on the outfit herself, which is a lot more clever and a lot less rapey.
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Toriyama: "Men being feminine is funny because being feminine is inherently bad. Lolz"

EDIT: Glad I got another Kunzait post to do all the work for me. Phew.
The joke was Roshi trying to pass off lingerie as a martial arts uniform...

Jesus Christ it's a stupid joke, what the actual fuck is wrong with you? why are you like this in every fucking thread?

It's about as stupid as if Roshi was trying to pass off a clown costume as a martial arts gi... it's a GAG.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:34 pm

The Monkey King wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:20 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:22 am
Shaddy wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:46 pm The best "Roshi is a pervert" joke I can remember is the "Turtle School Training Uniform" bit, because it involves Roshi willfully denigrating himself to convince Lunch to put on the outfit herself, which is a lot more clever and a lot less rapey.
Image
Toriyama: "Men being feminine is funny because being feminine is inherently bad. Lolz"

EDIT: Glad I got another Kunzait post to do all the work for me. Phew.
The joke was Roshi trying to pass off lingerie as a martial arts uniform...

Jesus Christ it's a stupid joke, what the actual fuck is wrong with you? why are you like this in every fucking thread?
I originally wrote, like, three paragraphs in reply to this post but then deleted it because I felt like you'd feel antagonized by me no matter what I said and frankly I'd rather just go for a walk. Sitting for so long is making my body ache. :sick:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:38 pm

There is probably a discussion to be had about Toriyama using the sissy/effeminate villain trope to be unsettling (General Blue, Zarbon, Freeza, debatably Android 17) but I don’t think Roshi dressing himself and the boys in women’s lingerie is really an example of “girly men are bad haha!” He wants to trick Lunch into wearing lingerie for him. And after the whole getting an underage girl to show her panties (and getting to see way more) and then exhorting the opportunity to touch said underage’s girls breast (and then getting his face full of her breast via a doppelgänger) and then telling an underage boy to grab a woman’s panties for him….convincing an adult woman to wear lingerie by putting it on himself and his students seems so quaint.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Gets Cancelled Overseas Over Sexual Harassment Claims

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:42 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:17 pmThat's not at all what I was even remotely indicating. Almost everything in life is contextual: very few things are universally so black and white (some things certainly are for sure, but not most things overall).

In the context of today's current political landscape? That we've been locked into some permutation thereof for... a good few decades at least? The overall mainstream has been dragged WAY too far to the right for WAY too long now. Anyone who is busy handwringing over "yeah but what if we go too far left?" is being both incredibly counter-productive and fairly detached from the current present day reality.

I'll use another metaphor to illustrate what I mean: pretend we're all heading down a road in a speeding car that has no breaks. Someone jerked the steering wheel hard and sharply to the right and now the car, with all of us piled inside, is speeding off the road and towards a solid brick wall. How then do you correct that situation? Do you yank the wheel even FURTHER towards the right and MORE off the road toward the brick wall? Or do you maybe GENTLY nudge the wheel just a hairline to the left, which... isn't going to do too much? Or do you yank the wheel back hard toward the left to try and AVOID the wall entirely and to actually get us all back on the road?

Because THAT'S illustrative of the current, present situation that we've been in now for some time. The socio-political axis has been WAY too skewed too sharply rightward for literally decades and decades now. A slight bump toward the left just isn't going to fucking cut it or do much of jack shit for the current problems we're facing. In the context of today's socio-political issues, you NEED a hard-left swerve to avoid the kinds of disasters that are no longer just fast bearing down on us... but that are already here, right now.

Anything less than that, in the context of the current issues, is just going to continue to get more and more people needlessly killed/have their lives ruined.
I don't think that analogy works, because it's treating politics like a zero-sum game: X amount of leftism will 'cancel out' X amount of rightism, and vice-versa. To give an extreme example, say you have a super right-wing fascist government like Nazi Germany, is the proper way to fix that government to try to establish a super left-wing communist government like the USSR under Stalin? No, because both of those systems are awful. You can't fight awful with more awful. In fact, despite being ideological opposites, those two governments actually had a lot in common, in terms of the amount of power in the hands of the government and how they treated their citizens.

You have probably heard of the 'horseshoe effect', right? That's the phenomenon where people on the extreme opposite ends of an issue can end up having things in common and actually agreeing with each other to some degree, just like the opposite ends of a horseshoe bend back and come closer together.

Some examples are certain ultra right-wing conservative Christians and certain ultra left-wing liberal feminists both wanting porn to be banned, albeit for different reasons. Also, extremely racist white KKK members and black supremacist groups (Black Hebrew Israelites and such) have been known to actually bond and work together over their mutual hatred of Jews.

I'm certainly not saying that the US is in any danger of becoming communist or anything, or that communist (or even socialist, using the actual definition of the term) politics have any sway in America today. And of course I know that the right wing loves red-baiting, as they'll accuse anyone to the left of Mussolini of being a communist. (I was seriously arguing with someone a few months ago who was claiming that Joe Biden was a communist :roll: ). The Overton Window in the US is skewed extremely to the right. I was just pointing out that equally extreme leftist positions do exist, and they can be just as bad. I see from your response that you do acknowledge this, so I have no objection to what you're saying. I just wanted to make it clear that going too far in either direction is a bad idea, as some people might get the wrong idea when they read a post that can basically be summarized as 'left = good, center = bad, right = worse'.
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