Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:00 pmI don’t know why you think all the movies exist in the same continuity.
Because I think if they ever were to explain the movies, they'll do this, put all of them in the same continuity. Also, because we do not have any official statement that says each movie takes place in its own dimension. Also also, if we consider the Hatchiyack OVA events, in which the characters acknowledge the movie villains, then that means they must take place in the same continuity. But anyway, I think this would also come down to personal preference until officially stated otherwise.
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:00 pmWe know in fact that they don’t.
Then, by all means, provide a source.
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:00 pmMovie 2-4 take place “vaguely after Namek” and yet Goku can’t become a Super Saiyan.
That's not what Daizenshuu 6 says about Movie 2, Movie 3 and Movie 4. The guidebook states the latter two movies happen at some point during Freeza saga, not after it.
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:00 pmMovie 12 cements the idea that Boo was defeated without Goku or Vegeta having to be brought back from the dead and that movie being the first time they fused ever.
I also need a source for this. I don't remember that idea being "cemented" at all.
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:00 pmBoo existing in movie 12’s continuity means jack squat in regards to movie 10 and 11 which at least suggest that Goten and Trunks never learned to fuse but it takes place after the tournament.
Goten and Trunks have no reason to fuse in Movie 11 if it takes place around the tournament, that's not when they learn how to fuse.
KBABZ wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:22 pmThis is what I have so far. Similar to your outlook, my approach was not to have the movie over-write entire anime story arcs, but to adjust said story arcs so that the movies can still happen. As you'll see, the most drastic change I had to make was with Z Movie 2.
Loved your idea for Movie 2, Nappa comes first, Movie 2 happens, then Vegeta appears. However, if Nappa takes eleven months to arrive on Earth and then Vegeta also takes this amount, that puts the fight against Vegeta in AGE 763. Vegeta has to be closer to Earth so that the last part of Saiyan saga can also take place in AGE 762. Unless you purposely want to change the known years, which I think it might be fine (though I would prefer to stick to the years), generally speaking.


I would place Movie 3 one year before Trunks' arrival (that would be AGE 763 in the known years). In the anime, Trunks expects to find only Goku and is surprised to see everyone together. So we could use this "blunder" and rewrite it to be Trunks arriving after Goku had already arrived.


About the wishes, I don't remember how the Dragon Balls worked before Dende. One wish requires a full year to recharge, is that it?


Movie 5 takes place at some point after Trunks arrival and before the androids' appearances, (i.e between AGE 764 and AGE 767). Not during the week prior to Cell Games as you stated in the document.


Clever use of "Goku unable to teleport due to Big Gete Star"! I don't remember if that's a thing in the movie, but if it isn't, clever idea!


You didn't mention anything, but Movie 10 has Goten seeing Goku. Which would only happen in the tournament. I know it sucks but I would rewrite the emotional anime scene so that Goten is happy to finally see his father for the second time (and "alive", that is, being able to touch him), not the first time. Unless you did say something with the "some maybe-help from Goku". To which I understand you ignore that Goku's spirit appeared in the movie (?). That would work too, but since I'd rewrite the anime instead of the movies...


You did a great job, congratulations! I would just ask you to state the years of these events. I couldn't really understand what you were going for and obviously I couldn't just apply the known years to them, so I kinda lost track right in the beginning.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:01 am

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am The guidebook states the latter two movies happen at some point during Freeza saga, not after it.
That’s cute. Did you notice the characters happened to be…not on Namek? Even though Namek was referred to? I don’t know how those movies can take place “during the Freeza saga” with everyone on earth in those movies. Clones I guess.




I also need a source for this. I don't remember that idea being "cemented" at all.
The source is watch the damn movie. Goku and Vegeta are dead. Gohan is back on earth and Boo is referred to but isn’t a current problem.

It’s almost like being overtly reliant on guidebooks instead of the actual series is silly.


Goten and Trunks have no reason to fuse in Movie 11 if it takes place around the tournament, that's not when they learn how to fuse.
It takes place AFTER the tournament. Hence 18 wants her money and Goku is back in Otherworld. You know at the point in the series when Goku went back to Otherworld everyone was preoccupied with Majin Boo. Which would mean Boo was defeated a lot quicker or prevented from being released in the movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:43 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am Loved your idea for Movie 2, Nappa comes first, Movie 2 happens, then Vegeta appears. However, if Nappa takes eleven months to arrive on Earth and then Vegeta also takes this amount, that puts the fight against Vegeta in AGE 763. Vegeta has to be closer to Earth so that the last part of Saiyan saga can also take place in AGE 762. Unless you purposely want to change the known years, which I think it might be fine (though I would prefer to stick to the years), generally speaking.
I generally didn't go by the AGE system, especially since my project is a thought experiment. But I suppose I can make it work by having Vegeta tail Nappa and hang around in the general area thinking he'd take care of them, then gets an alert that he's dead and takes a month to travel there, giving enough time for World's Strongest to occur.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am I would place Movie 3 one year before Trunks' arrival (that would be AGE 763 in the known years). In the anime, Trunks expects to find only Goku and is surprised to see everyone together. So we could use this "blunder" and rewrite it to be Trunks arriving after Goku had already arrived.
I don't really see how that's relevant or beneficial?
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am About the wishes, I don't remember how the Dragon Balls worked before Dende. One wish requires a full year to recharge, is that it?
Correct, which is the reason why Dead Zone MUST take place a year before Raditz. Otherwise the Dragon Balls would be turned to stone and Goku wouldn't be able to use the Dragon Radar to track down Raditz (I suppose he could use ki sensing, but that isn't brought up as a possibility so I'm assuming Goku doesn't use it until after training at Kaio's).
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am Movie 5 takes place at some point after Trunks arrival and before the androids' appearances, (i.e between AGE 764 and AGE 767). Not during the week prior to Cell Games as you stated in the document.
You may have noticed but for this thought experiment I threw out the Daizenshuu information entirely and stuck only to what we can see in the movies themselves. While the Daizenshuu are great tomes of information, there's a lot of speculative "we GUESS it could be this..." phrasing for things that have no solid answers, so I disregarded them to make everything work.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am Clever use of "Goku unable to teleport due to Big Gete Star"! I don't remember if that's a thing in the movie, but if it isn't, clever idea!
It isn't! But I figured I may as well come up with an explanation for why Goku doesn't use it in the movie since once isn't given.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am You didn't mention anything, but Movie 10 has Goten seeing Goku. Which would only happen in the tournament. I know it sucks but I would rewrite the emotional anime scene so that Goten is happy to finally see his father for the second time (and "alive", that is, being able to touch him), not the first time. Unless you did say something with the "some maybe-help from Goku". To which I understand you ignore that Goku's spirit appeared in the movie (?). That would work too, but since I'd rewrite the anime instead of the movies...
I generally didn't see a problem with it., but you're right. I'll add that Goten seems to be more familiar with Goku in the movie than he does in the anime, so he probably isn't as timid to meet him at Capsule Corp.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:11 am You did a great job, congratulations! I would just ask you to state the years of these events. I couldn't really understand what you were going for and obviously I couldn't just apply the known years to them, so I kinda lost track right in the beginning.
Well I've done as you requested and added the Ages. I'm not that familiar with the Ages the anime events take place in, so you'll forgive me is there's anything wrong.

I've updated the document with these additions, as well as an expansion on how I think the Buu Arc Tournament went down now that Goku, Vegeta, Spopovic, Yamu, Kibito and Kaioshin no longer compete!

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:17 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:01 amDid you notice the characters happened to be…not on Namek? Even though Namek was referred to? I don’t know how those movies can take place “during the Freeza saga” with everyone on earth in those movies. Clones I guess.
Yes. And because of that, the guidebook states "but since they aren't on Namekusei, that's movie-only events". It's a general statement, they say the movie takes place before the fight against Freeza, but because they aren't on Namekusei, nevermind this event.

But there's no "this movie takes place after Freeza" officially. And any attempt to reconcile the movies with the anime, which we are doing right now in this very thread, is nothing more than headcanon, speculative conversation.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:01 amThe source is watch the damn movie. Goku and Vegeta are dead. Gohan is back on earth and Boo is referred to but isn’t a current problem.
Goku and Vegeta are dead because at one point they both were dead in the series. Vegeta exploded himself and Goku's time ran out and went back to the Otherworld. That's when Movie 12 happens.

The only odd thing is Gohan, which should be sitting and waiting for Old Kaioshin to finish the ritual. I don't know what the guidebook says about Movie 12 (and unfortunately Kanzenshuu hasn't added a Movie 12 page) but I think it's something similar to what I said above, I think they acknowledge both Goku and Vegeta are dead and points out that Gohan is on Earth and conclude by saying "that's movie-only events".

Rewriting/assuming that Majin Buu was killed earlier/didn't even get out of his cocoon is headcanon. It's not like Movie 12 takes a lot of time to happen anyway, I don't remember if at this point in the series Mister Satan was trying to convert Majin Buu. But if he was, then that explains Majin Buu not being a current problem.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:01 amIt’s almost like being overtly reliant on guidebooks instead of the actual series is silly.
Yeah, but it's even more of a problem when the actual series isn't all that clear too.
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:43 pmI don't really see how that's relevant or beneficial?
The farther you place Movie 3, the more likely Goku could just one punch Turles out of existence. The closer you place Movie 3 to Freeza saga, the better we can explain why Turles was a threat. Going by the actual movie, it has to take place before Freeza saga, so here taking place after it might raise some questions (like why didn't Goku use False Super Saiyan, or "Super Saiyan Omen" as you call it, against Turles). He has to be a threat to the characters while still being weaker than Freeza.
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:43 pmYou may have noticed but for this thought experiment I threw out the Daizenshuu information entirely and stuck only to what we can see in the movies themselves.
Yes, but you specifically credited the guidebook for stating Movie 5 takes place right before Cell Games in your notes:
"While Daizenshuu 6 says this movie could be in the nine day wait for the Cell Games"
That's not really the case.
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:43 pmWell I've done as you requested and added the Ages. I'm not that familiar with the Ages the anime events take place in, so you'll forgive me is there's anything wrong.
You don't need to be. Just apply the years you originally wanted to go for, without being based on the actual AGEs. If you think that changing the years will help you, then it's best to state what are these new years for overall comprehension and comparison sake.

Say, if you think it's best to change a movie events to a few years later, you need to be cautious as to not change so drastically, otherwise one may end up wondering why some characters may be younger/older than they should be. Like changing Movie 12 events to take place after AGE 774, for example (but then again, Dragon Ball Super shows that even if you place Movie 12 five years after Majin Buu at most as you say in your document, Goten and Trunks would still look the same... What a crap series!).
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:46 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:17 pm
Yes. And because of that, the guidebook states "but since they aren't on Namekusei, that's movie-only events". It's a general statement, they say the movie takes place before the fight against Freeza, but because they aren't on Namekusei, nevermind this event.
Nobody is arguing the movies don’t fit into continuity but let’s use some simple logic rather than fall to those all powerful all knowing guidebooks.


Movie 3 and 4 mention Namek. Indicating the heroes have been to Namek. Bulma and Gohan even sport their Namek era haircuts. Ergo they’ve already been to Namek. Hence everyone being alive and all, aware of Namekians, and back on earth. Even movie 2 suggest it takes place at least a year after the Saiyan saga and that the heroes have already been to Namek since Piccolo is alive and Gohan remembers Piccolo’s sacrifice.
Your original argument “all the movies take place in the same universe” doesn’t make a lick of sense. Movie 2-4 within the context of themselves take place after Namek but Goku never became a Super Saiyan. Movie 5 also takes place after Namek and actually follows the end of the Freeza saga with Goku having defeated Freeza on Namek as a Super Saiyan. Therefore movie 5 cannot take place in the same continuity as movies 2-4

But there's no "this movie takes place after Freeza" officially. And any attempt to reconcile the movies with the anime, which we are doing right now in this very thread, is nothing more than headcanon, speculative conversation.
Again your problem is you keep defaulting to some silly guidebooks as the end all be all. Movies 2-4 cannot take place “during Freeza” that’s physically impossible. They don’t fit in with the main series and how events followed out but with in the context of themselves they all have to take place AFTER everyone was wished back with the Namekian Dragon Balls.

Goku and Vegeta are dead because at one point they both were dead in the series. Vegeta exploded himself and Goku's time ran out and went back to the Otherworld. That's when Movie 12 happens.

The only odd thing is Gohan, which should be sitting and waiting for Old Kaioshin to finish the ritual. I don't know what the guidebook says about Movie 12 (and unfortunately Kanzenshuu hasn't added a Movie 12 page) but I think it's something similar to what I said above, I think they acknowledge both Goku and Vegeta are dead and points out that Gohan is on Earth and conclude by saying "that's movie-only events".
Right, we’re in agreement movie 12 can’t take place in the actual continuity of the tv series. But we do know they’ve dealt with Boo before because Goku mentions Boo by name. Since Boo is clearly not a problem for the heroes on earth and Gohan is back on earth and Goku and Vegeta are still dead that would mean….as far as movie 12 is concerned Boo was deal with without Goku and Vegeta having to come back. Which again doesn’t jive with movie 13.
Rewriting/assuming that Majin Buu was killed earlier/didn't even get out of his cocoon is headcanon.
Not really. The heroes aren’t dealing with Boo and we know certain events still had to play out the same way.

Sorry it’s not spelled out for you in Daizenshuu volume 7 but movie 12 makes it pretty clear Boo was a former problem that had been dealt with and Goku and Vegeta are still dead.
It's not like Movie 12 takes a lot of time to happen anyway, I don't remember if at this point in the series Mister Satan was trying to convert Majin Buu. But if he was, then that explains Majin Buu not being a current problem.
Gohan was on Kaioshin’s planet and everyone else was on Dende’s Lookout. Movie 12 does not take place during the time Mr.Satan was making friends with Boo. It’s like you refuse to watch the movie and can’t acknowledge anything without a guidebook.

Yeah, but it's even more of a problem when the actual series isn't all that clear too.
They’re a lot more clear than you pretend they are.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:30 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:17 pm
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:43 pmI don't really see how that's relevant or beneficial?
The farther you place Movie 3, the more likely Goku could just one punch Turles out of existence. The closer you place Movie 3 to Freeza saga, the better we can explain why Turles was a threat. Going by the actual movie, it has to take place before Freeza saga, so here taking place after it might raise some questions (like why didn't Goku use False Super Saiyan, or "Super Saiyan Omen" as you call it, against Turles). He has to be a threat to the characters while still being weaker than Freeza.
To me that isn't really a concern because Turles is exactly as strong relative to Goku as he is in the movie, no matter where that movie is actually placed in the timeline. I understand the concerns about Super Saiyan Omen being on the table, but I guess Goku would have decided to use the Genki-Dama rather than try and use a form that he hasn't gotten the hang of yet. So here's the new addition:
  • Goku doesn’t use Super Saiyan Omen like he did on Namek because it’s still an untested form, much more aggressive and Oozaru-like than the regular Super Saiyan and harder to achieve. For that reason, he instead opts to try the Genki-Dama first, which works.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:17 pm
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:43 pmYou may have noticed but for this thought experiment I threw out the Daizenshuu information entirely and stuck only to what we can see in the movies themselves.
Yes, but you specifically credited the guidebook for stating Movie 5 takes place right before Cell Games in your notes:
"While Daizenshuu 6 says this movie could be in the nine day wait for the Cell Games"
That's not really the case.
Ah okay, I see. This is why I prefer to use the Funimation names because I thought Movie 5 was Cooler's Revenge on New Namek.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:17 pm
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:43 pmWell I've done as you requested and added the Ages. I'm not that familiar with the Ages the anime events take place in, so you'll forgive me is there's anything wrong.
You don't need to be. Just apply the years you originally wanted to go for, without being based on the actual AGEs. If you think that changing the years will help you, then it's best to state what are these new years for overall comprehension and comparison sake.
Honestly I was thinking of everything relative to the events of the anime and not specific years; I've never thought of Dragon Ball's events using the Age system. It can also get very complex keeping a handle on all the timeskips, AND the only place I could get a proper Timeline was DBwikia, hence why I'm not confident about the years I just added. I prefer to keep the anime's dates the same to serve as a "spine" to which the movies are then placed, if that makes sense.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:17 pm Say, if you think it's best to change a movie events to a few years later, you need to be cautious as to not change so drastically, otherwise one may end up wondering why some characters may be younger/older than they should be. Like changing Movie 12 events to take place after AGE 774, for example (but then again, Dragon Ball Super shows that even if you place Movie 12 five years after Majin Buu at most as you say in your document, Goten and Trunks would still look the same... What a crap series!).
Well first, I'm not too concerned about the look of the characters because Bulma aside, a lot of that is down to the art style. For example Goku and Krillin always look older when the anime flashes back to their Tournament training (like in the Terebikko game) because the art style has evolved so much from its original depiction. The only time I felt this could have been an issue was Gohan due to Dead Zone being a year prior, but he's so young then I felt it wouldn't be that troublesome.

Second, you're correct, Goten and Trunks' appearance would suggest the last two movies take place sometime soon after the end of the Buu Arc, and depending on when the Buu Arc transpires they could even be within the same calendar year. I placed the stipulation there because...

Third, you may have noticed that the movies I haven't watched have very barebones entries in the document. That's because I'm updating them as I watch the movies, and this Rewatch is the very first time I'm seeing them all, so I know very little about them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:46 pmYour original argument “all the movies take place in the same universe” doesn’t make a lick of sense. Movie 2-4 within the context of themselves take place after Namek but Goku never became a Super Saiyan. Movie 5 also takes place after Namek and actually follows the end of the Freeza saga with Goku having defeated Freeza on Namek as a Super Saiyan. Therefore movie 5 cannot take place in the same continuity as movies 2-4
It's too drastic a change. Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza without Super Saiyan, and it's a major plot point. We can't simply assume he defeated him in base form. When I said we should rewrite the anime to accommodate the movies to be as organic as possible, I didn't intend us to make such drastic changes like that. That's the opposite of "organic". We should maintain as much as possible from the anime while still adding the movie events into it.

Also, there's power level to be considered, even if Goku defeated Freeza in base form, his power level in Movie 3 is anywhere near as the power level he should have after having fought Freeza.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:46 pmRight, we’re in agreement movie 12 can’t take place in the actual continuity of the tv series.
And that's your problem. No one here is placing these movies in the continuity of the TV series you know and watched so many times. We're talking about an anime series that takes place in another dimension, no one watched it. That's why we're taking liberties to rewrite that one version to accommodate the movies, not the regular TV series you grew up watching it. But again, without making drastic changes like "Goku never transformed into Super Saiyan", that's inconceivable.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:46 pmNot really. The heroes aren’t dealing with Boo and we know certain events still had to play out the same way. Gohan was on Kaioshin’s planet and everyone else was on Dende’s Lookout. Movie 12 does not take place during the time Mr.Satan was making friends with Boo.
Yeah, but Majin Buu wasn't around 24/7 as you imply. Just saw the manga, Goku's time runs out almost at the same time Majin Buu kills Babidi. Majin Buu then starts to wreak havoc and then Mister Satan appears, he's about to go to live with Majin Buu, he wasn't in Dende's Lookout. So what I said can be applied.

When Goku mentions Majin Buu, he's referrencing his fight in which he debuted Super Saiyan 3. After that fight, Goku goes to the Otherworld and just a bit after that, Mister Satan appears and proceeds to live with Majin Buu, then Movie 12 happens.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:46 pmSorry it’s not spelled out for you in Daizenshuu volume 7 but movie 12 makes it pretty clear Boo was a former problem that had been dealt with and Goku and Vegeta are still dead.
Sorry but it's not spelled out for you in the movie that makes it pretty clear Buu was already defeated. In fact, now that I saw the manga and Mister Satan is about to go and convert Majin Buu, that does explain his absence in the movie. Now, we should just find a way to rewrite the anime series from the alternate dimension in order to explain Gohan's presence.
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:30 pmHonestly I was thinking of everything relative to the events of the anime and not specific years; I've never thought of Dragon Ball's events using the Age system. It can also get very complex keeping a handle on all the timeskips, AND the only place I could get a proper Timeline was DBwikia, hence why I'm not confident about the years I just added. I prefer to keep the anime's dates the same to serve as a "spine" to which the movies are then placed, if that makes sense.
Then it's a good thing you don't need to be working alone in this document, right? You can ask others to handle specific things like that. :wink: One thing you absolutely must not do is using wikia as source, though.

Anyway, a couple of things:

You placed Bardock TV Special in AGE 738. It originally takes place in AGE 737.

Cell arrives in the present one year before Trunks. I see that you placed Trunks arrival in AGE 764 as it is originally, so Cell has to arrive in AGE 763, not AGE 765 as you state in the document.

The androids also appeared in AGE 767 in the future, not AGE 766 as it is written in the document.

You say Trunks has to travel sixteen years to the past. Why? AGE 783 - 16 = AGE 767. In the first time he traveled, it was twenty years. Also, you should probably mention that after one more struggle with the androids in AGE 783, there was another timeskip to AGE 784. That's the actual year Trunks goes back in time. This is an issue in the series too, it doesn't mention this timeskip, and so one is led to assume Trunks goes back in time from AGE 783 instead. Unless this is all intentional, of course...

The first two sagas of Dragon Ball GT, the Search for the Dragon Balls and Baby saga, take place in AGE 789. However, Super 17 saga and the Shadow Dragons saga take place in AGE 790. There is a one year timeskip right in the middle of the series.

You use "Mystical Gohan" and "Ascended Super Saiyan" names, blergh. Let's make this document more authentic, shall we? Use "Ultimate Gohan" and "Super Saiyan Grade 2" respectively, instead. :)
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:30 pmThird, you may have noticed that the movies I haven't watched have very barebones entries in the document. That's because I'm updating them as I watch the movies, and this Rewatch is the very first time I'm seeing them all, so I know very little about them.
I really think once you finish watching the movies, you rewrite the series so as not to make such a drastic change like ending it earlier than it should be, as it is the case right now in the document. And to that effect, also rewrite Majin Buu saga so Movie 12 can happen within it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:31 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:59 pm Then it's a good thing you don't need to be working alone in this document, right? You can ask others to handle specific things like that. :wink: One thing you absolutely must not do is using wikia as source, though.
I had no other options! It's not like I can just ask VegettoEX to give me access to the Timeline page of the Kanzenshuu wiki!
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:59 pm You use "Mystical Gohan" and "Ascended Super Saiyan" names, blergh. Let's make this document more authentic, shall we? Use "Ultimate Gohan" and "Super Saiyan Grade 2" respectively, instead. :)
IMO there's really no good name for either of them. Personally I feel "Overclocked Super Saiyan 1" more accurately describes what's going on with the latter, but I'm always hesitant to use it because it sounds like I'm modding my gaming rig.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:59 pm
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:30 pmThird, you may have noticed that the movies I haven't watched have very barebones entries in the document. That's because I'm updating them as I watch the movies, and this Rewatch is the very first time I'm seeing them all, so I know very little about them.
I really think once you finish watching the movies, you rewrite the series so as not to make such a drastic change like ending it earlier than it should be, as it is the case right now in the document. And to that effect, also rewrite Majin Buu saga so Movie 12 can happen within it.
I do that as I go, so if I think I can make it happen, I will. That said, care to educate me on why Movie 12 should happen within the Buu arc rather than after it?

Anyways, I've now implemented the changes to the dates as you've suggested, thanks so much! You can double-check them in the updated file using the same link from my previous post.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:44 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:59 pm

It's too drastic a change. Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza without Super Saiyan, and it's a major plot point. We can't simply assume he defeated him in base form. When I said we should rewrite the anime to accommodate the movies to be as organic as possible, I didn't intend us to make such drastic changes like that. That's the opposite of "organic". We should maintain as much as possible from the anime while still adding the movie events into it.
It’s not about being organic. It’s about taking what’s given to you. Movie 2-4 are set after Namek. Goku cannot become a Super Saiyan in those movies. This isn’t difficult. It’s like someone telling you the sky is blue and you want to argue it’s actually pink.
Also, there's power level to be considered, even if Goku defeated Freeza in base form, his power level in Movie 3 is anywhere near as the power level he should have after having fought Freeza.
Alternatively you can assume they never crossed paths with Freeza in those movies timeline. Iirc Freeza is only mentioned in passing by Tulles.

But regardless as far as movie 2-4 is concerned the heroes came back from Namek already.

That’s why we're taking liberties to rewrite that one version to accommodate the movies, not the regular TV series you grew up watching it. But again, without making drastic changes like "Goku never transformed into Super Saiyan", that's inconceivable.
You can do whatever you like it doesn’t change that

Movie 2-4 has Namek as a past event and Goku isn’t a Super Saiyan (Cheap marketing gimmick Super Saiyan in movie 4 not with standing)

Movie 10-11 (at least movie 11 but based on Goten’s knowledge of Goku movie 10 as well) take place After the 25th Tenkaichi Budoakai but Majin Boo isn’t an issue and Goku is still dead

Movie 12 (for the umpteenth time) refers to Boo as a prior foe and has Gohan reunite with everyone on earth and Goku and Vegeta are still dead.



Yeah, but Majin Buu wasn't around 24/7 as you imply. Just saw the manga, Goku's time runs out almost at the same time Majin Buu kills Babidi. Majin Buu then starts to wreak havoc and then Mister Satan appears, he's about to go to live with Majin Buu, he wasn't in Dende's Lookout. So what I said can be applied.
No it can’t. There was no possible breathing room for movie 12 to take place during the Boo saga. Everyone was on The Lookout while Gohan was training on Kaioshin’s planet during the time Boo got free from Bobbodi. Gohan is back on earth and everyone is acting laidback with things having gone back to normal. The movie blatantly takes place after Boo is defeated.


Sorry but it's not spelled out for you in the movie that makes it pretty clear Buu was already defeated.
Other than the fact that nobody is preoccupied with Boo you mean? You keep ignoring what was actually going on during the Boo saga.
In fact, now that I saw the manga and Mister Satan is about to go and convert Majin Buu, that does explain his absence in the movie. Now, we should just find a way to rewrite the anime series from the alternate dimension in order to explain Gohan's presence.
Your problem you is keep hyper focusing on “This is how I explain why we didn’t see Boo in movie 12” without looking at the movie as a whole .

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:02 pm

The old Dragon Ball movies were just perfectly disposable things meant to entertain kids while they were on break from school. Toei was obviously never concerned about the movies needing to fit into the continuity of the series. Even something like Movie 5, which could technically be placed in between the three year wait for the Artificial Humans, was released right before the manga had even gotten to that point.

The easiest movies to fit into the series continuity are 9 and 13, but even then, there are one or two things that seem a bit iffy. In the case of Movie 13, it would presumably need to take place over a year after Majin Boo’s defeat, since the Dragon Balls are used in it, but Gohan and Videl are still in high school.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:08 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:02 pm . In the case of Movie 13, it would presumably need to take place over a year after Majin Boo’s defeat, since the Dragon Balls are used in it, but Gohan and Videl are still in high school.
They can still be in high school a year later. Gohan was only 16 in the Boo saga. Although they seem to have the exact same English teacher that we saw in the beginning of the Saiyaman saga and I have no idea how likely that would be in Japan.

.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:10 am

KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:31 pmI had no other options! It's not like I can just ask VegettoEX to give me access to the Timeline page of the Kanzenshuu wiki!
For an overall look at the timeline, you don't need to do that. There was this official website called "Dragon Ball SSSS" in which they had a section about the AGES. It doesn't exist anymore, but fortunately Herms translated and saved it for us.

You can also look at Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2. They always start a saga by saying which year it is.

Herms also has this outdated timeline but it's still useful for the most part and it's more detailed.
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:31 pmThat said, care to educate me on why Movie 12 should happen within the Buu arc rather than after it?
An out-universe reason is that Movie 12 was released in March 4, 1995. The last chapter released at that point was in February 28, 1995.

In that chapter, Super Buu had transformed into Buu and destroyed Earth. I don't think that at that time Toei knew Toriyama would soon finish the saga. Because of that, I don't think that while they were working on the movie, they thought to place it after the events of Majin Buu saga (also, who knows at what chapter it was at the time they started production for the movie. Well, we know that Vegetto only exists because Gogeta was set to appear in the next movie. Vegetto appeared in the end of January, so production for Movie 12 had to have started around late 1994. A relatively long way until the conclusion of the saga).

I believe the last thing Toei was thinking about was the end of the Majin Buu saga, it wasn't their intention for the movie to take place after it. We know that movies always used the series as their "basis", what was going on and eventually finding a way to make a movie set during the then on-going events.

Movie 13 was released in July and its production might have started in April or May. At that time, Toriyama was wrapping up stuff, especially in May, which is the month the manga ended. So we can probably say it was Toei's intention to place Movie 13 after Majin Buu saga, they knew what was going on and what would happen, that is, if they didn't start production in May, they wouldn't have much to worry about.

An in-universe reason is because I have no reason to assume such thing. Movie 12 happening after Goku goes to the Otherworld and Mister Satan going to live with Majin Buu seems fine. Gohan being on Earth is the unfortunate contradiction of the movie, but I'm sure it's one we can solve it without having to make drastic changes. Also, if Movie 12 were to happen after Majin Buu saga, why would Goku and Vegeta still be dead? Are their families fed up with them and decided to keep both of them dead?
KBABZ wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:31 pmAnyways, I've now implemented the changes to the dates as you've suggested, thanks so much! You can double-check them in the updated file using the same link from my previous post.
That's pretty much it. I mean, there's still a few little minor details, but I won't bother you any further with this, I think you have done enough. :thumbup: I'll mention what these minor details later when you have finished watching the movies and updating your document. Be sure to post it somewhere at some point, it's a really good content that shouldn't be locked away.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:01 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:10 am An in-universe reason is because I have no reason to assume such thing. Movie 12 happening after Goku goes to the Otherworld and Mister Satan going to live with Majin Buu seems fine. Gohan being on Earth is the unfortunate contradiction of the movie, but I'm sure it's one we can solve it without having to make drastic changes. Also, if Movie 12 were to happen after Majin Buu saga, why would Goku and Vegeta still be dead? Are their families fed up with them and decided to keep both of them dead?
Well thinking a bit on it, I think I have a workable solution:

Goku and Vegeta both die in the process of killing Pure Buu. Mr. Satan doesn't think to pull Vegeta out of the way of the Spirit Bomb, and the Namekian Dragon Balls are used to contribute energy to that after Mr. Satan's plea to the people of Earth doesn't work. Thus, Goku gives his own life throwing it to kill Buu, rendering all three combatants dead. Kaioshin transports Satan back to Earth afterwards.

Since both sets of Dragons Balls had just been used up on all their wishes, there's a whole year until the Namekian Dragon Balls can be used again to wish Goku and Vegeta back to life. This gives a window for Fusion Reborn to occur. Once it has, the Namekian Dragon Balls are no longer turned to stone and are used to bring the pair of them back to life, allowing Wrath of the Dragon to happen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:10 pm

That may work for your document, but it is an otherwise major departure from the events of the series.

Also, that would place Movie 13 in AGE 775. Where's Majin Buu? If you use the same idiotic reason Dragon Ball Super used twice (that he's "conveniently" sleeping), I'll make sure to knock your lights out so that you wake up only when we ever reach AGE 784 in the series.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:10 pm That may work for your document, but it is an otherwise major departure from the events of the series.
Did you forget the parts where DBM1-3 replace the three starting arcs, where Vegeta doesn't follow Nappa to Earth, or where Goku uses a different form of Super Saiyan on Namek??
Grimlock wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:10 pm Also, that would place Movie 13 in AGE 775. Where's Majin Buu? If you use the same idiotic reason Dragon Ball Super used twice (that he's "conveniently" sleeping), I'll make sure to knock your lights out so that you wake up only when we ever reach AGE 784 in the series.
I've figured that out. In the Movieverse, the wish is changed from "Everyone on Earth" to "Everyone in the universe". This simple wording change gives Buu the idea to explore space, so he's off in the galaxies having fun while Wrath of the Dragon is going on, and returns sometime before EoZ.

Anyway I updated the document again with these, and another change that I feel is particularly genius: figuring out how Future Trunks got a Canuts sword.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:25 pm

KBABZ wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pmDid you forget the parts where DBM1-3 replace the three starting arcs,
Yes, as I've never watched them! I don't know a thing about them, but obviously I wouldn't replace anything. But like I said, never watched them so I'll just leave it at that. :lol:
KBABZ wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pmwhere Vegeta doesn't follow Nappa to Earth,
In the grand scheme of things, everything goes as it should be. Vegeta appearing after Nappa changes little.
KBABZ wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pmor where Goku uses a different form of Super Saiyan on Namek??
This also works because, as far as everyone's concerned, that's Super Saiyan. Goku never saw it, Freeza never saw it. As long as Goku actually transforms into something, it works. What doesn't work is "Goku never transformed against Freeza".
KBABZ wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pmI've figured that out. In the Movieverse, the wish is changed from "Everyone on Earth" to "Everyone in the universe". This simple wording change gives Buu the idea to explore space, so he's off in the galaxies having fun while Wrath of the Dragon is going on, and returns sometime before EoZ.
Why would Majin Buu be in space? Six months after Buu's fight, they should have wished to erase the memories of everyone. Majin Buu being on Earth or not during this time changes nothing, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't get revived until the next year. The only way for this to work is, despite the Dragon Balls being available to use, they wouldn't do it until they revive Goku and Vegeta. But why would they do that to Majin Buu?
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:07 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:25 pm The only way for this to work is, despite the Dragon Balls being available to use, they wouldn't do it until they revive Goku and Vegeta. But why would they do that to Majin Buu?
You're mis-understanding: the memory wish and the wish to revive Goku and Vegeta are done in the same session. In my Movieverse, Fusion Reborn occurs in the couple of days it takes for Goten and Trunks and so-on to recover the Dragon Balls (since they don't have Instant Transmission to jump straight on top of them like Goku did before the Cell Games, so it takes them much longer). Gohan and Videl don't tag along because they still have to go to school.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:59 am

Okay, got it. Though I must point out: Goku, Vegeta and Buu died together, but in the document, you say that Gohan and Gotenks defeated Buu.

Also, you elected to "postpone" the wish to bring everyone back, which means bringing Kibito back didn't happen. Without Kibito, there's no Kibitoshin. No Kibitoshin means Goku and Vegeta would probably die at Buu's attack/destruction of Earth. Unless you also changed that (?). In your Movieverse, Buu didn't destroy Earth? Where does the fight take place exactly? In the post above, you said "Kaioshin transports Satan back to Earth afterwards.", so I imagine it takes place on Kaioshin realm, which implies Gohan and Gotenks are dead instead.

(Speaking of Kaioshin, he doesn't seem to have Kibito's ability to teleportation. That would only be the case in Dragon Ball Super).

So Majin Buu would spend at least eight months drifting in space... Oh well, poor Buu. Hopefully he can find something cool to do in the meantime. Well, that's better than "oh he's sleeping, that's why he can't help" bullshit Toriyama/Toei did twice! TWICE! During the movie credits, we could see what Majin Buu is doing in space.


Well, since you're still editing the document, I might as well just say those little details I mentioned earlier:

First, you forgot to change how many years has been since Gohan's death. Gohan dies in AGE 780 and Trunks trip is in AGE 784. It's been four years since Gohan's death, not three as it is written in the document.

Second, Dragon Ball GT TV Special takes place in AGE 889, not AGE 890.

The TV Special recounts only the events of Baby saga before starting telling its own story. That's because the TV Special was released on March 1997 (in between the first and second episodes of Super 17 saga). So because the series hadn't been concluded by that point and because the TV Special only acknowledges Baby saga, it is implied to be one hundred years after Baby saga specifically, not one hundred years after the Shadow Dragons saga/Dragon Ball GT conclusion. It's a really minor detail, but anyway.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:24 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:25 pm
KBABZ wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:15 pmDid you forget the parts where DBM1-3 replace the three starting arcs,
Yes, as I've never watched them! I don't know a thing about them, but obviously I wouldn't replace anything. But like I said, never watched them so I'll just leave it at that. :lol:
Well, here's the pertinent info:
  • Curse of the Blood Rubies replaces the Pilaf Arc.
    • The only thing it's missing is the Pilaf Gang (who don't appear until Mystical Adventure) and Chi-Chi; every other character meeting is replicated.
    • There's an implied gap of time between DBM1 and 2, so I use that gap to have Goku search for his Four Star Ball again and bump into Chi-Chi (since she appears in the later movies) before giving up and going to Master Roshi's.
  • Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle replaces the Launch Search, only Launch is still met. Goku still meets Krillin and they still get Launch, and it's here that Goku first turns into an Oozaru.
  • Mystical Adventure replaces the 21st TB since Roshi takes them to the Mifan Tournament instead. It ALSO has the Red Ribbon Army as the Mifan Empire's police force, and has Upa and Penguin Village subplots, so it replaces the RRA Arc as well.
    • Shen kills the Pilaf Gang right at the start of the movie, so for the Daimao Arc, I replace them with the similar-looking Garlic Jr. (which works because they were up on the blimp the entire time, so nobody except Daimao saw them).
    • Shen's revenge plot can still happen as he has an identical character arc in the movie (only with a healthy dose of usurping the Emperor). I say that Chiaotzu disbands the RRA after the events of the movie, thus allowing them to appear in the 22nd Tournament and give Dr. Gero the motivation against Goku for the Android Arc.
    • Most famously Chiaotzu is the Emperor of the Mifan Empire with Tien as his close friend, so I say that he resigned as Emperor after the events of the movie and travelled the world with Tien, thus allowing them to appear in the 22nd TB (albeit rather differently as they're not evil and Shen isn't present because he was already defeated in DBM3). Because Tien and Chiaotzu are softened, their meeting with Goku in Worldly Training is decidedly different, making it the only Filler Arc to be visibly altered for the Movieverse in some way.
    • Because Goku never goes to Baba's Palace anymore, he meets her for the first time in the Wedding Dress Arc (presumably she doesn't charge as much for divinations in my Movieverse). This allows for Goku's return in the Buu Arc to happen.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:59 am Okay, got it. Though I must point out: Goku, Vegeta and Buu died together, but in the document, you say that Gohan and Gotenks defeated Buu.
Unless I worded something wrong or changed it and forgot, I don't think I said that. As it stands in the latest revision, Goku remains dead throughout the Buu Arc, Vegeta sacrifices himself to try and defeat Majin Buu, and Pure Buu dies fighting Gohan and Gotenks in similar circumstances to the manga/anime (see below).
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:59 amAlso, you elected to "postpone" the wish to bring everyone back, which means bringing Kibito back didn't happen. Without Kibito, there's no Kibitoshin. No Kibitoshin means Goku and Vegeta would probably die at Buu's attack/destruction of Earth. Unless you also changed that (?).
I honestly don't think there's any direct evidence saying that you cannot use the Potara Earrings with someone who is dead, so I assume the same happens here. If it's really a problem I can easily say that Old Kai gave his life to restore Kibito's, thus explaining why Goku can't rejoin the fight at the very least.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:59 am In your Movieverse, Buu didn't destroy Earth? Where does the fight take place exactly? In the post above, you said "Kaioshin transports Satan back to Earth afterwards.", so I imagine it takes place on Kaioshin realm, which implies Gohan and Gotenks are dead instead.

(Speaking of Kaioshin, he doesn't seem to have Kibito's ability to teleportation. That would only be the case in Dragon Ball Super).
I haven't really thought out the details of how that would play out, only that it happened (thinking from the perspective of a writer adjusting the story out-of-universe). I'm mainly going on "original creative intent" rather than "I think Gohan and Gotenks had a decent shot at Buu in the original manga/anime", so Battle Power rejiggering is naturally implied here. After all, the villains are always as strong as they need to be to keep the story exciting, so if Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks are enough to challenge Buu, then that's how it is.

That said, I think that Gohan would have come up with the plan to let himself be ingested by Super Buu to do the infiltration plan and save his loved ones, removing Fat Buu as well and thus creating Pure Buu, leading into the grand finale of it all.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:59 am So Majin Buu would spend at least eight months drifting in space... Oh well, poor Buu. Hopefully he can find something cool to do in the meantime. Well, that's better than "oh he's sleeping, that's why he can't help" bullshit Toriyama/Toei did twice! TWICE! During the movie credits, we could see what Majin Buu is doing in space.
I wouldn't say drifting in space, more that Buu would just travel the galaxies meeting new people and seeing cool things. Think a wuxia wanderer, except it's actually a fat genie manbaby in space looking for amusement parks and cotton candy.
Grimlock wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:59 am The TV Special recounts only the events of Baby saga before starting telling its own story. That's because the TV Special was released on March 1997 (in between the first and second episodes of Super 17 saga). So because the series hadn't been concluded by that point and because the TV Special only acknowledges Baby saga, it is implied to be one hundred years after Baby saga specifically, not one hundred years after the Shadow Dragons saga/Dragon Ball GT conclusion. It's a really minor detail, but anyway.
Ah! So, logically then the GT Special takes place a year before EoGT! Interesting!

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 88 - DBZ 228-230, movie 11 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Grimlock » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:41 pm

KBABZ wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:24 amWell, here's the pertinent info:
Think that's a sign I should try to go and watch Dragon Ball, while the movies I never saw, I can barely remember the events of the series. It's been too long and today I don't have the patience to watch long shows anymore. If only they did a "Dragon Ball Kai" for Dragon Ball too...

I can confidently but shamefully say I didn't understand a thing you said here, sorry. I'll just have to trust you. :lol: :oops:
KBABZ wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:24 amI honestly don't think there's any direct evidence saying that you cannot use the Potara Earrings with someone who is dead, so I assume the same happens here. If it's really a problem I can easily say that Old Kai gave his life to restore Kibito's, thus explaining why Goku can't rejoin the fight at the very least.
Yeah, maybe you're right. It's just weird to me for someone to fuse with one who's dead, but eh. Then again, I just remembered Kibito has to come back anyway, Kibitoshin appears in Dragon Ball GT. And I would most certainly place it in the movie dimension (as Cooler appears in it).
KBABZ wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:24 amThat said, I think that Gohan would have come up with the plan to let himself be ingested by Super Buu to do the infiltration plan and save his loved ones, removing Fat Buu as well and thus creating Pure Buu, leading into the grand finale of it all.
Oh okay, I would ask about that but you already provided an answer. I guess that makes sense too.
KBABZ wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:24 amAh! So, logically then the GT Special takes place a year before EoGT! Interesting!
I... don't know if it was ever said which year that tournament took place, but yes, the TV Special has to occur before the tournament seen in the anime. That's also supported by the fact that in the TV Special, Goku Junior befriends that dude (forgot his name) while in the tournament they are already friends. Unless there's an information out there that I'm not aware of, the gap between the TV Special and the tournament could be more (or less) than one year.
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