Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 90sDBZ » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:53 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:24 am Also alternate continuities are a thing that exist and aren’t unique to Dragon Ball. Look at Halloween. Not even counting Halloween 3 being its own thing and the Rob Zombie movies existing there’s 3 different timelines

1: Halloween 78>Halloween 2>Halloween 4>Halloween 5>Halloween 6

2. Halloween 78>Halloween 2>H20>Halloween Resurrection

3. Halloween 78>Halloween 2018>Halloween Kills>Halloween Ends


People going to theaters to see Halloween Kills don’t have to burn their copies of Halloween 2 and H20 “because those movies don’t count anymore” its just understood when watching that particular movie that those movies stories didn’t occur in this movie’s timeline.
Good example. Halloween 4 is still highly regarded by fans despite being "non-canon" since H20 came out in 1998. Halloween really got convoluted with the thorn storyline though, so I don't blame them for ignoring 4-6 (although 4 technically didn't start that storyline). Halloween 2 is my favourite sequel by far, but I also understand why the 2018 film chose to ignore it.

I like GT, but it wasn't all that popular to begin with. Its always being a polarising show, and many people considered it "non-canon" long before Super happened. Hell it already confused the timeline by having Z movie villains appear.

On the other hand nobody is forcing anyone to watch Super. It's there if you like it, and easily ignored if you don't.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:00 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:53 pm . Hell it already confused the timeline by having Z movie villains appear.

Tbf, Z did that first with Garlic Jr. Toei has never cared about canon and non-canon. “Here’s the story take it or leave it”

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:14 pm

So is asking "What's Important?" a better question than asking "What's Canon?" Its seems like asking "what's canon" always devolves into a spat over personal preferences and then there's the throw away answer of "There is no canon" which I've never been a huge fan of because it can be taken as saying "Nothing Matters" and obviously something has to matter for a cohesive story to be told.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 90sDBZ » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:17 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:00 pm
90sDBZ wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:53 pm . Hell it already confused the timeline by having Z movie villains appear.

Tbf, Z did that first with Garlic Jr. Toei has never cared about canon and non-canon. “Here’s the story take it or leave it”
Yeah I've always reconciled that in my mind as "something similar to the events of Movie 1 took place". Like maybe everything went down like in the movie, except Krillin and the others never got involved, so never learned about Gohan's existence until the day of Raditz' arrival.

And Cooler being in GT would basically be "Movie 5 happened, except Goku went Super Saiyan at will and Gohan didn't have a tail or his Namek hairstyle".

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:20 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:14 pm So is asking "What's Important?" a better question than asking "What's Canon?" Its seems like asking "what's canon" always devolves into a spat over personal preferences and then there's the throw away answer of "There is no canon" which I've never been a huge fan of because it can be taken as saying "Nothing Matters" and obviously something has to matter for a cohesive story to be told.
Usually the question of "What Is Important?" will result in people saying only the manga, if even the original DB/DBZ anime. Some argue that the only things that count are what is specifically-based on Toriyama's manga.

When all is said and done though, I watch these things on their own merits moreso than how they fit into the big picture. And I consider all DB anime (DB, Z, GT, Super, the movies; Super kind of separate from everything else) in general to be a different beast from the original self-contained manga. All of it has its own place. So I guess it's not something I give much thought to.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:00 pm

I view the Dragon Ball franchise the same that I do with the Godzilla franchise. Both series have their own continuities that have other timelines that exist. Even Toriyama considers the old DB and DBZ movies to be set in their own dimension.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:27 pm

Even viewing these continuities as taking place in their own dimension feels like it's still about canon.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:50 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:27 pm Even viewing these continuities as taking place in their own dimension feels like it's still about canon.
The whole concept of alternate dimensions and this dimension and that dimension stuff just seems wholly unnecessary and extra to me. Is a viewer supposed to pretend every anime exclusive scene is occurring in a pocket dimension? Oh Gohan meeting Robot-san, and the dinosaur, and the orphans that helped him grow as a person? That didn’t happen in the main timeline it occurred in an alternate dimension!!

Toei’s whole stance on continuity seems to be “It matters until it doesn’t and it doesn’t matter until it does” You just kind of have to roll with it. You can’t actually make “Return my Gohan! “ fit anywhere in the tv series not as a prequel between Dragon Ball and Z not as something that occurred at the very beginning of Z. It was just the summer movie that vaguely recreated plot beats from the Raditz 5-parter. But when Toei needed to stall for time to let Toriyama get ahead they went back to the Garlic Jr thing for the tv series and yeah suddenly you just have to accept the movie did happen even though they can’t. Oh also Hire Dragon shows up and Gohan and him know each other even though he was introduced in a movie that’s even further removed from continuity than the first Z movie. So you have to accept Z movie 3 happened even though…yeah good luck figuring that one out.

And you can’t just dismiss the Garlic Jr filler arc as “Oh it exist in the same alternate timeline as the movies” because its so tied to the main story following up where the Freeza saga left off (Goku is still in space, Vegeta is looking for him) and certain things introduced that arc show up later like Maron making a few appearances in the Android arc.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:32 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:50 pm The whole concept of alternate dimensions and this dimension and that dimension stuff just seems wholly unnecessary and extra to me. Is a viewer supposed to pretend every anime exclusive scene is occurring in a pocket dimension? Oh Gohan meeting Robot-san, and the dinosaur, and the orphans that helped him grow as a person? That didn’t happen in the main timeline it occurred in an alternate dimension!!

Toei’s whole stance on continuity seems to be “It matters until it doesn’t and it doesn’t matter until it does” You just kind of have to roll with it. You can’t actually make “Return my Gohan! “ fit anywhere in the tv series not as a prequel between Dragon Ball and Z not as something that occurred at the very beginning of Z. It was just the summer movie that vaguely recreated plot beats from the Raditz 5-parter. But when Toei needed to stall for time to let Toriyama get ahead they went back to the Garlic Jr thing for the tv series and yeah suddenly you just have to accept the movie did happen even though they can’t. Oh also Hire Dragon shows up and Gohan and him know each other even though he was introduced in a movie that’s even further removed from continuity than the first Z movie. So you have to accept Z movie 3 happened even though…yeah good luck figuring that one out.

And you can’t just dismiss the Garlic Jr filler arc as “Oh it exist in the same alternate timeline as the movies” because its so tied to the main story following up where the Freeza saga left off (Goku is still in space, Vegeta is looking for him) and certain things introduced that arc show up later like Maron making a few appearances in the Android arc.
Yeah, I think another issue with that explanation from Toriyama is that a few people seem to seriously expect him to incorporate it into the main storylines of Super. Like having Tullece go through a mysterious portal and arrive on Beerus's planet or something.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by omaro34 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:39 am

RoF should have never happened, and the story wouldn't have changed much at all if it didn't. It was the worst arc of Super imo. There wasn't a need to bring back Freeza and give him an insane power boost after just 4 months of "training".

Goku Black arc had a great start, that episode 47 was the best episode of Super, but that arc had a lackluster ending. Still far better than anything RoF provided.

New Dragonball content is always good, but I just wish they leave this 10 year time period and we can go into arcs without knowing how the cast will end up.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:38 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:50 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:27 pm Even viewing these continuities as taking place in their own dimension feels like it's still about canon.
The whole concept of alternate dimensions and this dimension and that dimension stuff just seems wholly unnecessary and extra to me. Is a viewer supposed to pretend every anime exclusive scene is occurring in a pocket dimension? Oh Gohan meeting Robot-san, and the dinosaur, and the orphans that helped him grow as a person? That didn’t happen in the main timeline it occurred in an alternate dimension!!

Toei’s whole stance on continuity seems to be “It matters until it doesn’t and it doesn’t matter until it does” You just kind of have to roll with it. You can’t actually make “Return my Gohan! “ fit anywhere in the tv series not as a prequel between Dragon Ball and Z not as something that occurred at the very beginning of Z. It was just the summer movie that vaguely recreated plot beats from the Raditz 5-parter. But when Toei needed to stall for time to let Toriyama get ahead they went back to the Garlic Jr thing for the tv series and yeah suddenly you just have to accept the movie did happen even though they can’t. Oh also Hire Dragon shows up and Gohan and him know each other even though he was introduced in a movie that’s even further removed from continuity than the first Z movie. So you have to accept Z movie 3 happened even though…yeah good luck figuring that one out.

And you can’t just dismiss the Garlic Jr filler arc as “Oh it exist in the same alternate timeline as the movies” because its so tied to the main story following up where the Freeza saga left off (Goku is still in space, Vegeta is looking for him) and certain things introduced that arc show up later like Maron making a few appearances in the Android arc.
I like the Bond films' use of continuity, namely that it's vague and unimportant except in regards to what little backstory we get about Bond - He's an orphan whose parents died in a climbing accident. That's really the only thing that's stayed through the 30+ films. Otherwise, it's like "how is Judi Dench's M the one who recruited Bond when Bond was there before her in Goldeneye?" The simple answer "It doesn't matter"
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:50 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:32 amI think another issue with that explanation from Toriyama is that a few people seem to seriously expect him to incorporate it into the main storylines of Super. Like having Tullece go through a mysterious portal and arrive on Beerus's planet or something.
What? You prefer Dragon Ball to be all about retellings, tournaments, rehash and formulaic sagas? Because that's the real issue as far as common sense is concerned, not expanding the mythos and changing the status quo.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:06 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:50 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:32 amI think another issue with that explanation from Toriyama is that a few people seem to seriously expect him to incorporate it into the main storylines of Super. Like having Tullece go through a mysterious portal and arrive on Beerus's planet or something.
What? You prefer Dragon Ball to be all about retellings, tournaments, rehash and formulaic sagas? Because that's the real issue as far as common sense is concerned, not expanding the mythos and changing the status quo.
That’s not at all what they said. What.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:53 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:38 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:50 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:27 pm Even viewing these continuities as taking place in their own dimension feels like it's still about canon.
The whole concept of alternate dimensions and this dimension and that dimension stuff just seems wholly unnecessary and extra to me. Is a viewer supposed to pretend every anime exclusive scene is occurring in a pocket dimension? Oh Gohan meeting Robot-san, and the dinosaur, and the orphans that helped him grow as a person? That didn’t happen in the main timeline it occurred in an alternate dimension!!

Toei’s whole stance on continuity seems to be “It matters until it doesn’t and it doesn’t matter until it does” You just kind of have to roll with it. You can’t actually make “Return my Gohan! “ fit anywhere in the tv series not as a prequel between Dragon Ball and Z not as something that occurred at the very beginning of Z. It was just the summer movie that vaguely recreated plot beats from the Raditz 5-parter. But when Toei needed to stall for time to let Toriyama get ahead they went back to the Garlic Jr thing for the tv series and yeah suddenly you just have to accept the movie did happen even though they can’t. Oh also Hire Dragon shows up and Gohan and him know each other even though he was introduced in a movie that’s even further removed from continuity than the first Z movie. So you have to accept Z movie 3 happened even though…yeah good luck figuring that one out.

And you can’t just dismiss the Garlic Jr filler arc as “Oh it exist in the same alternate timeline as the movies” because its so tied to the main story following up where the Freeza saga left off (Goku is still in space, Vegeta is looking for him) and certain things introduced that arc show up later like Maron making a few appearances in the Android arc.
I like the Bond films' use of continuity, namely that it's vague and unimportant except in regards to what little backstory we get about Bond - He's an orphan whose parents died in a climbing accident. That's really the only thing that's stayed through the 30+ films. Otherwise, it's like "how is Judi Dench's M the one who recruited Bond when Bond was there before her in Goldeneye?" The simple answer "It doesn't matter"
In the case of James Bond, the Daniel Craig films are officially treated as a rebooted continuity.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:40 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:53 pm
ABED wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:38 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:50 pm The whole concept of alternate dimensions and this dimension and that dimension stuff just seems wholly unnecessary and extra to me. Is a viewer supposed to pretend every anime exclusive scene is occurring in a pocket dimension? Oh Gohan meeting Robot-san, and the dinosaur, and the orphans that helped him grow as a person? That didn’t happen in the main timeline it occurred in an alternate dimension!!

Toei’s whole stance on continuity seems to be “It matters until it doesn’t and it doesn’t matter until it does” You just kind of have to roll with it. You can’t actually make “Return my Gohan! “ fit anywhere in the tv series not as a prequel between Dragon Ball and Z not as something that occurred at the very beginning of Z. It was just the summer movie that vaguely recreated plot beats from the Raditz 5-parter. But when Toei needed to stall for time to let Toriyama get ahead they went back to the Garlic Jr thing for the tv series and yeah suddenly you just have to accept the movie did happen even though they can’t. Oh also Hire Dragon shows up and Gohan and him know each other even though he was introduced in a movie that’s even further removed from continuity than the first Z movie. So you have to accept Z movie 3 happened even though…yeah good luck figuring that one out.

And you can’t just dismiss the Garlic Jr filler arc as “Oh it exist in the same alternate timeline as the movies” because its so tied to the main story following up where the Freeza saga left off (Goku is still in space, Vegeta is looking for him) and certain things introduced that arc show up later like Maron making a few appearances in the Android arc.
I like the Bond films' use of continuity, namely that it's vague and unimportant except in regards to what little backstory we get about Bond - He's an orphan whose parents died in a climbing accident. That's really the only thing that's stayed through the 30+ films. Otherwise, it's like "how is Judi Dench's M the one who recruited Bond when Bond was there before her in Goldeneye?" The simple answer "It doesn't matter"
In the case of James Bond, the Daniel Craig films are officially treated as a rebooted continuity.
It really doesn't matter even though that's true. Keep in mind this is a franchise where Bond met Blofeld face to face and in the next film it plays as if they never met. They don't care about continuity and the audience doesn't really either. Remember how in the MCU, SHIELD is introduced as this little known organization and yet is later portrayed as some omnipresent organization that's been around for years? Point is that even in a franchise that puts more emphasis on continuity, absolute fidelity isn't important to even the audience.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:16 am

Grimlock wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:50 pm What? You prefer Dragon Ball to be all about retellings, tournaments, rehash and formulaic sagas? Because that's the real issue as far as common sense is concerned, not expanding the mythos and changing the status quo.
As Masenko kindly pointed out, I didn't say anything of the sort. :eh:

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:55 pm

Bond is a great example. Another example is the Fox X-Men movies. Just try to make all those movies, even only from First Class onwards, make sense with one another. You can't. You'll run yourself into having a nervous breakdown. Yet they all still exist, none more or less so than the other. Even the Marvel Cinematic Universe has developed multiple inconsistencies within itself, and now it's going hard in the paint with all that multiverse babble as a way of saying it all counts, for the fans who latch onto that stuff so strongly.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:22 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:16 am As Masenko kindly pointed out, I didn't say anything of the sort. :eh:
What was your point with that commentary?
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:51 pm

To be fair, I don't think Feige's point is "it all counts" and is just "lets have fun"
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:58 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:51 pm To be fair, I don't think Feige's point is "it all counts" and is just "lets have fun"
Honestly I think that's just semantics; for all intents and purposes, it's still essentially the same thing. It's definitely not saying "Well this counts, and this doesn't" and blah blah. And saying something doesn't not count is just another way of saying it can count; so again, for all this talk of canon, the terms are so loose that I think it's a fruitless endeavor in the first place. What with What-If (at first saying it's non-canon, then saying it is). And even with what seems to be happening with Spider-Man: Far From Home.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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