Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:02 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:07 pmExplicit declaration of what is or isn't canon isn't a requirement. Sherlock Holmes has a canon and it wasn't stated by Doyle.
Who (or what) did establish a canon in that franchise?
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:22 pmAfaik canon just means official. Literally anything release by Shueisha/Bandai/Shonen Jump/Toei is “canon” as opposed to say fan fiction or a Doujinshi.
"Canon" is also not a synonym for "official". Everything done under license is indeed official, that's what separate official works from unofficial ones. But canonicity has nothing to do here.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:22 pmBut canon has always been accepted colloquialism for “part of the main story” if I say “The 10th anniversary Dragon Ball film: The way of the Strongest” is a non-canon retelling of the Son Goku/Red Ribbon arcs everyone knows I mean “It’s an alternative retelling that exist outside the main timeline” and knows that I’m not trying to claim that it isn’t an official work made by one of the IP holders.
That's not even a remotely correct use of the word "canon". It is an extremely bad "colloquialism" to say the least.

On a related note: "It's been accepted" is a very weak argument. The majority of people saying or believing in someone or something does not make that someone or something real or fact.

I don't even need to go very far, this very subject already presents an example of many people saying something that is objectively wrong: "this is canon"/"that's not canon".

A lot of people say that, but guess what? They not only are wrong when it comes to works that don't even a canon established, they are also grammatically wrong. "Canon" is a noun. When you want to give a quality/attribute to someone/something you will use an adjective, so in this case, the correct form is: "this is canonical/that is not canonical".

Fewer people say "canonical" by comparison. However, that's the correct one in a sentence like that.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:22 pmTrying to make a distinction between canon and main continuity is just splitting hairs.
The distinction between "canonicity" and "continuity" is not a matter of "splitting hairs". It's the same distinction between "canon" and "canonical". You will not use these words interchangeably. You will use these words in specific contexts, where their applicability is possible, following a certain structure that ensures complete comprehension of what you're trying to say.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:35 amCould be just my experience but I think the phrase "There is no canon" was coined here in order to get people to stop racking their brains on how the movies were supposed to fit in the main story, which was a huge discussion topic pre revival era.
Does your experience also tells you where "there is a canon" (in Dragon Ball) was coined?
90sDBZ wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:17 pmLike when someone ponders over how little sense the Garlic Jr saga makes, and someone else says "Who cares? There is no canon. Anything goes", it's essentially saying that basic storytelling logic doesn't matter. To be clear I'm not saying that stuff like the Garlic Jr saga or the movies are bad because they don't fit. I actually like the movies a lot. I'm saying fans have every right to try and make sense of this stuff in whatever way they can. For many of us the idea of imagining how events unfolded leading up to Movie 12 is fun and fascinating. It's clear that things happened differently, so imagining the specifics is fun, and doesn't need to be instantly shut down with "There is no canon, don't bother thinking about it".
Wrong. The people who do that are the ones who think there is a canon in Dragon Ball. They are so preoccupied with what's canonical and what's not, that they will shut down with "don't bother thinking about it, it's not canon anyway".

I don't care about canonicity, yet I had a great discussion with KBABZ about where to fit the movies in the anime continuity (it's basically the entire thread, so three pages of us trying to do that. If you intend to read it, have fun!).

I've never seen anyone who doesn't care about canon doing that, like I said, it's the exact opposite.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:10 pm

Instead of telling people they are wrong how about telling us the distinction? If all you are gonna do is tell people they are incorrect, you aren't pushing the conversation forward.
Who (or what) did establish a canon in that franchise?
The stories themselves. And based on my readings, it seems the concept as applied to fiction came about to figure out what events in the stories count. It was early fan communities trying to make sense of the often contradictory details of the stories.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:47 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:02 pmSnip
Sure is interesting that through all of that you never provided any sort of explanation for what canon is. Almost like you’re full of it. 🤔

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:21 pm

It seems like 90sDBZ already provided a distinction, but you guys still want to be spoonfed by me specifically, huh... Alright.

But before I begin, can we all agree that "Merriam-Webster" is a great dictionary? This is important, you know. I can't explain something using external sources if someone randomly pops up here and starts disagreeing with the sources and such. Is that all right? Does everyone agree to allow me to use it as a legit source? Can I start? Let's do it:

Continuity )---> Uninterrupted connection, succession, or union. Uninterrupted duration or continuation especially without essential change.

I'm using the first meaning Merriam provides, which is the definition we want here. By applying the meaning of continuity, it means an order of events. What are these "order of events" you ask? It's the way Akira Toriyama wrote the story. So first he begins with: Pilaf saga, then proceeds to the 21st tournament, then Red Ribbon saga, then the 22nd tournament, then Piccolo Daimaoh saga and then comes 23rd tournament.

We have all these sagas, one happening after the other. That constitutes a continuity. In a more "broad sense", the word "timeline" may also work here as a synonym for "continuity". As per its definition but doing a few modification provided: a manga showing important events for successive years within a particular historical period (from AGE 749 to AGE 756).

Reader: "But oh Grimlock, so does that mean the movies made by Toei Animation are out of Toriyama's continuity? The definition says especially without essential change, after all".

Me Grimlock: Yes, my dear reader. They are. The movies deviate from this order of events, they change substantially from what is seen in the continuity established by the author. But does that mean they aren't "canonical"? No. Not necessarily. Now, calm down, the explanation shall come!

Canon )---> A regulation or dogma decreed by [a church council]. An accepted principle or rule. A body of principles, rules, standards, or norms.

I'm using the first and fourth definitions Merriam provides, which then you will notice I skipped the third definition, which says: "the authentic works of a writer". Why am I not using this? Because, as the website states, it's a meaning used in the Middle English, so it's archaic. But I do have a feeling some of you may get triggered by this, so even if I do take its meaning into consideration, it means an authentic work by a writer. Ooishi Naho is a writer and she also made an authentic work. Whoever wrote that Yamcha story, they are a writer and they made an authentic work. Takao Koyama is a writer and he made many authentic works. You see where I'm getting at? Do I need to go on?

With that out of the way, as per the definition, canonicity is an act made consciously by a person, an entity (it can differ from continuity, which may or may not be done consciously. And we know that, in Toriyama's case, it wasn't conscious. He didn't plan out how the events of the sagas would unfold from the beginning. He made it up as he went, he has repeatedly admitted that this is the case in interviews).

Rules, standards, norms... All of this is made by a statement from those who can state that. Who can make such statement? Well, it depends on what we are talking about. A president, the Pope, a principal, a leader, a boss... In Dragon Ball's case, Akira Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball and Shueisha, the right holders of Dragon Ball. Only Akira Toriyama and Shueisha have the right to decree a rule, a standard, a norm... A canon in Dragon Ball. You can't have these things established by itself, or by no one. You have to have someone with authoritative power and the right to do that. If a principle is "accepted", it's "accepted" by whom? You'll say "by those who have the control". Not "by no one" or "by itself". This does not exist. You need a person. A law doesn't exist by itself, you need someone there to exert such law.


Reader: "Hm, I think I understood now, Big Grim. Indeed, in that case, we don't have any statement from neither Akira Toriyama nor Shueisha about the canonicity of the old movies and Dragon Ball GT and such. There are no laws, no principles, no norms related to them as far as we know. They never stated that the fans cannot consider their events as if they were happening as legit events taking place after or based on the author's continuity or even somewhere else in the vast world. But still, their events couldn't happen in a continuity the author is most involved, could it?"

Me Grimlock: "An author can acknowledge the existence of other events without having to place them in their own continuity. As we know, we don't have limitations to our imagination, to what we can and can't do. We do have many resources that help us even in situation like this. If an author so desires, they can say that a related work happens in another Universe, or dimension. A reality not totally related to the one the author is currently working on. By doing so, they would be acknowledging its events, yet not having any relation to the current continuity at all. So for exxample, you don't actually need to make characters from the author work to interact with the characters from this other reality, even so, you had said that that related work exists in-universe, in your work. In works that an author or someone else has stated a canon, this would mean the related reality is canonical, even if it doesn't interact with the continuity the author is most involved. Because its events were acknowledged to take place in-universe by someone who can make suck acknowledgement.

Here, let me show you an example of that: In this video, we see that the creators acknowledged the events of the "The Legend of Korra" videogame even though the show itself doesn't. So, again, in a work that has a defined canon, the game would be canonical, but not taking place in the animated series continuity.

We have Peter Parker as Spider-Man in Earth-616 and Miles Morales as Spider-Man in Earth-1610 (commonly known as the "Ultimate Universe"). They both exist in-universe, but they are from different realities. However, neither of them pretends the other doesn't exist even in times where the writer doesn't make these two realities to interact with each other. They simply don't interact, but they are both there.


Conclusion:

A continuity shows you the order of the events. If you want to know when something happened, you search for its continuity. -- I want to know when Saiyans saga happened: )--> *search in continuity* oh, it happens in AGE 761 and AGE 762, between the 23rd tournament and Freeza saga.

A canon will tell you if a work exists or not in-universe (not necessarily depending if it happened in a certain continuity or not. Though it can also note you about that) acknowledged by someone from an out-universe perspective: )---> *search in canon* oh, so according to the author, this work did happen (after this, before that, in this other reality). Or: *search in canon* oh, according to the author, this work did not happen at all (in-universe).

It is important that you understand and prioritize the acknowledgement from an out-universe perspective because even a work not related to the author's continuity can (and most certainly in most case will) have its continuity. In Dragon Ball's case, we can also use continuity to know when the movies and other works take place: *search in continuity* oh, Movie 12 takes place at some point during Majin Buu saga. However, as we finally learned after reading all of this, this doesn't mean it's not a canonical work, because no such acknowledgement exists.

It is also important that you understand this distinction because we also have works not even defined by continuities. Like the OVAs where they show Goku with the fire brigade or teaching viewers how to cross the streets. Or that OVA where it shows Goku and Trunks going back to the past. We don't know when they happen (continuity) or if they happened (canonicity).

That is why a sentence like: "this isn't canon to this continuity" makes little to no sense whatsoever. While a work may not be connected to that specific continuity, it may still be there with the possibility of "crossing over" to the continuity you are most focused on. In a situation like this, canon is rendered completely useless. Not only because it may or may not have someone's acknowledgement, from an in-universe perspective, the events of the related work still didn't happen in that continuity, yet a character (or something else) popped up in the author's continuity. If this seems contradictory to you, that's because it is. The nature of canonicity is rooted in contradiction. There's nothing we can do about it, there's nowhere to run but to accept this. It is such an abstract concept with so many different layers that it can be hard to truly learn everything about it.

For further reading, I highly recommend Transformers wiki page and its page about continuity. Now, calm down. I know wikis are not to be trusted, but not this one. This one isn't your regular wiki connected to that "fandom wiki", it is an internal one (much like what Kanzenshuu's wiki gonna be). They went into more details and may provide even more explanation than I gave here. I would like to point out just to ignore most of what "General canon rules" section says, since that part is describing what fans generally do, how they approach this subject when it comes to Transformers, instead of providing official statements.

Do not use just this post for understanding, please don't be a lazy person and do some research yourself too. Grab a book about it, read some articles, other texts, try to understand how things work in other franchises, how concepts are used. This is a complex issue, after all and it might vary greatly. You have to familiarize yourself through other means as well, this is important for a deeper comprehension. I think I just scratched the surface with this post, but please do your job too. Instead of just sitting there in front of a computer saying "that's not cannon!", entertain yourself with something more interesting, fun and/or that will provide you some knowledge.


(Please save this post, bookmark it. Do whatever you can to always have this post easily accessible for you. I won't be doing this anymore. Holy hell it took me a while to make this post. And I have a feeling people will still ask: "bruh wHaT dO yOu MeAn ThErE's No CaNoN?", so here's a bit of explanation. Here's what you need for a basic understanding once and for all).

Fun fact: there is also a difference between "side-story", "spin-off", "filler" and "what-if". None of these terms mean the same thing, and of course, I've seen people using them interchangeably, as if they did mean the same thing. They are wrong. Will I explain the difference between each term? Maybe. But in the (far) future. For now, I can only suggest that you do your own research on those terms yourself, and have a good reading!
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:06 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:21 pm It seems like 90sDBZ already provided a distinction, but you guys still want to be spoonfed by me specifically, huh... Alright.
He did indeed. And the distinction is “canon” is officially stated by the author or (in the case of Dragon Ball the publisher as well) as part of the main story and continuity is self evident. Again this is splitting hairs. But you don’t want to hear that. When the key difference is “the author told you so” that is distinction without a difference. You don’t need Toriyama to tell you the Broly movies in Z are non-canon. Super Broly is evident of that. And the fact they don’t work with in the framework of the main story should tell you they’re not in continuity either.


If you think getting fussy over the word canon and non-canon being used interchangeably with continuity and out of continuity because “Well Toriyama didn’t say it was non-canon” that’s a you problem.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:58 pm

Nah, the fact that those words mean different things already speaks for itself. if you say something is canonical or not, I'll be there to ask you to provide a source for such statement. I would very much like to see for myself what Toriyama and/or Shueisha said about it.

Mere fans do not have the authority to deem something canonical or not. So when they do say something like that, they must have a source ready at their disposal to back their claim up.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

SSJgogeto
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:51 pm

I feel like discussions like this have some hitches because while we have a definition of what "canon" is, at the same time it's necessary to adapt this definition to DB franchise. English is not my first language so maybe I'm not clear enough, but here's what I think:

Canon can be defined as:

1 - Works made by Toriyama.
2 - Things acknowledged by Toriyama as part of "main story".
3 - Things who have heavily strong contributions from Toriyama himself.

So, when someone says "Heroes/the movies/GT/whatever isn't canon", this means "these things don't meet the necessary requirements to be considered canonical". Of course, sometimes it's not that simple, which is why fans often debate things like that.

Also, continuity can be defined a specific order of events inside or outside the canon. Like, inside the canon (Super) we have three continuities (movies, anime and manga), and outside the canon (Heroes) we have more three continuities (game, anime and manga).

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:24 pm

While assuming that everything (heavily) touched by an author's finger can be a "noble" way to approach this subject, it always, always raises a few questions and one has to wonder why is that the way it is, or why is that not the way it is.

As soon as everyone (and by "everyone" I mean the fans and official entities too) agrees that everything done by the author is canonical, then in theory there shouldn't be any question about the legitimacy of any work the author did or was heavily involved, right?

If that is right, why do we have people saying that the retellings of Dragon Ball Super "rewrites" the movies when the retellings were not made by Toriyama? Shouldn't it be crystal clear that the movies should take priority since they are well known to be from Toriyama?

Neko Majin is a work made by Akira Toriyama and it seems to be set in the Dragon Ball world (fitting your number 1 description). Shouldn't it automatically be considered canonical?
Dragon Ball Online is a work in which we know Toriyama worked on for five years (fitting your number 3 description. And by Toriyama saying it takes place after the manga, it fits your number 2 description). Shouldn't it automatically be considered canonical? Why do we have people questioning and/or even dismissing them and their status then?


Also, that assumption that the canon "can" be defined like that, where the author has to be involved no matter what, is not a rule, is not something outright set in stone. I have provided evidence that a canon can also be established by someone else, or on top of that, that canon can be left up to the fans if an entity with a degree of power says so (it's in the Transformers link).
That said, what will "only what Toriyama does/acknowledges is canonical" become when Akira Toriyama retires and passes away? Will stories by Toei and other official entities be deemed not canonical by default? And what if these entities do say that what they are doing are canonical? Will fans start an argument with them?


About Dragon Ball Super and its three continuities. Which one actually happened? From an in-universe perspective, there can be only one event. The characters did not experience the "Battle of Gods" events three times. Only one version happened in-universe, which one? If there is a canon, where is the clarification about this? Or if Toriyama's works are the ones to be considered no matter what, we should take the movies and ignore completely the retellings, shouldn't we?

Who or what is to say Dragon Ball Heroes is "outside of canon"?
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

pepd
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by pepd » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:50 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:21 pm Canon )---> A regulation or dogma decreed by [a church council]. An accepted principle or rule. A body of principles, rules, standards, or norms.
[snip]
You are just bringing a specific different definition of "canon" to which there would be indeed no DB canon, to paint that there is no canon according to the canon everyone else is talking about.
Nah, the fact that those words mean different things already speaks for itself. if you say something is canonical or not, I'll be there to ask you to provide a source for such statement. I would very much like to see for myself what Toriyama and/or Shueisha said about it.
And you will be mixing the definitions to suit that conclusion unless the discussion is initially about the definition of "canon", or you clarify that you are turning it into that instead of pretending it is the definition, since, as you said, they are different words, and in this context it refers to fiction canon.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:14 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:58 pm Nah, the fact that those words mean different things already speaks for itself. if you say something is canonical or not, I'll be there to ask you to provide a source for such statement. I would very much like to see for myself what Toriyama and/or Shueisha said about it.

Mere fans do not have the authority to deem something canonical or not. So when they do say something like that, they must have a source ready at their disposal to back their claim up.

The Z Broly movies are non-canon because Toriyama did his own version of Broly with the Super movie. You don’t need Toriyama to say “The Broly movies from Dragon Ball Z are non-canon” because that should be obvious. Toriyama writing his own take on Broly is the source.



You’re taking an overtly literal approach to the definition at the expense of applying the barest minimum of critical thought.

SSJgogeto
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:19 pm

I will highlight these two points again, who essentially answers the questions made above:
SSJgogeto wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:51 pmhere's what I think
SSJgogeto wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:51 pmOf course, sometimes it's not that simple, which is why fans often debate things like that.
It's not a thing set in stone, just a opinion like the "there's no canon" one. Until we have an official announcement about the situation all we have are opinions about the matter. Also, those opinions and point of views can be (and usually are) influenced by personal reasons. From what I saw from Grimlock's posts in this forum, for example, there's a strong implication that he is essencially against the "canon" because things like (old)Bardock-kun, Janemba-chan, Xenoverse-senpai and Heroes-sama usually are considered outside of it by fans.

Oh, and about DBO, from what I saw "There's absolutely nothing providing information one way or the other on what Toriyama's involvement was in regards to contributing ideas/writing for the game." So technically it doesn't fit the number 2 and 3 points of my definition.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:29 pm

If the big distinction is something officially decreed, then fine, but do we really need the original story to be explicitly decreed since the manga was never in dispute?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:49 pm

The concept of canon was first applied to figure out which scriptures of the Bible were considered to be authoritative, and all of that was figured out by the followers of Christianity. They did not compile the Biblical canon through confirmation by God himself, they had to figure it out themselves.
This same principle can be applied to fictional [serialized] media, which is done in order to separate certain work that contradict events from a line of stories that perfectly corroborate each other. This creates the dichotomy of the main line of work (the Canon) and extraneous side stories (Apocrypha). Theoretically, fans don't need confirmation from the main author (i.e Akira Toriyama) to compile a canon of their media. Moreover, the "principles" of these media are meant to be all the specific events that occur in the main timeline, which is why some fans interchange "continuity" and "canon" in discussion (which, to be fair, is a bit erroneous).

The main dilemma with DRAGON BALL canonicity is that the methodology of determining its canon has become overly complex by the sequels of the original manga (GT, modern films, and Super), as they both have at least some degree of involvement from Toriyama, contradict each other, and have separate versions of the story (mainly Super, really). In my personal opinion, the canonicity of the sequels simply cannot be determined due to these complicated factors. Sure, it is easy to argue how DBZ: The World's Strongest or the Garlic Jr. Saga are not canon because they contradict the events of the original manga, the work that is considered to be the main timeline. However, things become subjective when someone mentions how GT should be canon because Toriyama was somehow involved, but it contradicts the events of Super which is also contributed to by Toriyama or whatever. It is a fruitless discussion because fans tend to treat their opinions as concrete facts, which is an easy recipe for toxicity. If people accepted this difference of opinion, our fandom would be a better place.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:02 pm

Dragon Ball's concept of "canon" really isn't even that complex compared to the majority of sprawling franchises and mythologies out there. At the very least, there's a solid, consistent baseline most people agree on: Toriyama's original manga. As ABED pointed out, you don't need him or anyone else at Toei or Shueisha to definitively say "THIS IS CANON" for people to assume it is, because it's so heavily implied.

Canon is ultimately about tracking what the original author has or hasn't directly written, but it is by nature a highly subjective, ever-shifting topic for nerds to discuss and debate. One minute, Halloween 2 can be the "canonical" sequel to the original, next it can be superseded by the 2018 reboot authorised by Carpenter. I personally think hinging on the author or IP owners' words about canon is frivolous since they can be so fickle and contradictory in examples like that. I'd agree with PurestEvil that fandoms would be better places if people were less rigid and inflexible about this stuff.

Furthermore, if you're the kind of person that gets severely bent out of shape about DB's canon or supposed lack thereof, I'd hate to see the kind of mental meltdown you'd have if you were neck-deep in fandoms with much more liberal ideas of canonicity, e.g. James Bond, Hammer Horror, Doctor Who, Jenny Everywhere, most Tokusatsu franchises I'd imagine, classical mythologies, etc etc.

Seeing as he's hot shit again, let's talk about Bond briefly. Now, logically, the novels of Ian Fleming ought to be considered the highest form of canon, but the Eon Productions movie saga is so influential to pop culture that fans usually view them on roughly even ground. It's in the job description that to be a 007 fan, you kinda have to roll with the inconsistencies and contradictions since the films are usually so standalone, plus the fact that multiple actors have played Bond, though many elements carry over from one era to the next. Even with the Daniel Craig era being marketed as a fullblown reboot, you still have Judi Dench reprising the role of M from the Brosnan era, you still have the Aston Martin DB5, as well as many other meta continuity nods that imply Craig's Bond has a longer history than we see, etc. How is one supposed to reconcile all this? The answer is quite simple: Just don't. Relax. Enjoy the damn movie.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:28 am

The last two posts are where I stand. Canon and continuity are maliable so I don't really care. I only care insofar as I need to know what the stories take into account. To use the Halloween example, the most recent films discard all but the original from canon which is helpful in following the story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:53 am

Indeed, Dragon Ball is a medium for entertainment, so we can pick and choose which work we would like to watch, irrespective of the canon. Canonicity should not a major factor in deciding which work we prefer, it’s not some sacred text we must follow; we are not Gokuists.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:09 am

pepd wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:50 pmYou are just bringing a specific different definition of "canon" to which there would be indeed no DB canon, to paint that there is no canon according to the canon everyone else is talking about.
No, I'm bringing the definition of canon. Also, is wikipedia even a reliable source? Probably not, but if it somehow is, it already starts with an erroneous sentence: "canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base." If that's the canon "everyone talks about", then I see now where they are getting things wrong.

When are people going to learn that fans do not have a say in what's canonical? You are not entitled to that. Please learn this already.
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:14 pmThe Z Broly movies are non-canon because Toriyama did his own version of Broly with the Super movie. You don’t need Toriyama to say “The Broly movies from Dragon Ball Z are non-canon” because that should be obvious. Toriyama writing his own take on Broly is the source.
The only thing Toriyama did was coming up with another Broly. Toriyama's Broly does not erases Z Broly. Now we have two Brolys in and out-universe. Both can be canonical if they ever deem them as such.
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:14 pmYou’re taking an overtly literal approach to the definition at the expense of applying the barest minimum of critical thought.
More like I'm the only one here with a critical thought. Or do you think going around screaming "that's non-canon" is being critical of the situation? I mean, it's clear you don't have a grasp of how things usually work, you see something not by the author and you already make baseless claims, so... where's your critical thought?
SSJgogeto wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:19 pmAlso, those opinions and point of views can be (and usually are) influenced by personal reasons. From what I saw from Grimlock's posts in this forum, for example, there's a strong implication that he is essencially against the "canon" because things like (old)Bardock-kun, Janemba-chan, Xenoverse-senpai and Heroes-sama usually are considered outside of it by fans.
That's because that's all there is to it, opinions. Which fans also calls it "headcanon" in this situation. From your posts, there's a strong implication that you don't like any of those things, and so is only natural you won't consider them canonical. But in my case, I don't need to worry about because "not being considered by fans" is utterly irrelevant. Fans don't determine anything, but what about in your case? I mean, judging by the fact you didn't answer any of the pertinent questions about Neko Majin and by what you said below about Dragon Ball Online, you might be very worried this works are seen by the definition as/can turn canonical at any point. Just try to relax, these works won't hurt you!
SSJgogeto wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:19 pmOh, and about DBO, from what I saw "There's absolutely nothing providing information one way or the other on what Toriyama's involvement was in regards to contributing ideas/writing for the game." So technically it doesn't fit the number 2 and 3 points of my definition.
So now we're ignoring piece of information and what has been said? Oh the convenience...
PurestEvil wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:49 pmIt is a fruitless discussion because fans tend to treat their opinions as concrete facts, which is an easy recipe for toxicity.
And when you go and ask those fans to provide something which shows that their opinions are based on actual facts, some of them can even get offended or ignore you completely. I find this hilarious, to be honest.
Last edited by Grimlock on Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17541
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:16 am

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:49 pm The concept of canon was first applied to figure out which scriptures of the Bible were considered to be authoritative, and all of that was figured out by the followers of Christianity. They did not compile the Biblical canon through confirmation by God himself, they had to figure it out themselves.
One could argue that it was the official rights-holders of the fictitious works of Christianity that defined the canonical works of that intellectual property.

Anyway, it'd be super-cool if y'all could chill out with the accusatory language a bit. It's all in good fun, right?
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:16 am

VegettoEX wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:16 am
PurestEvil wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:49 pm The concept of canon was first applied to figure out which scriptures of the Bible were considered to be authoritative, and all of that was figured out by the followers of Christianity. They did not compile the Biblical canon through confirmation by God himself, they had to figure it out themselves.
One could argue that it was the official rights-holders of the fictitious works of Christianity that defined the canonical works of that intellectual property.
Firstly, Copyright and intellectual property did not exist back then, because physical texts were much more difficult to copy and distribute.
Secondly, the truthfulness of Christianity does not matter. The people who recorded, say, the New testament were long dead before [multiple] canons were compiled by the church authorities (it wasn't until the third century when canonic consistency appeared). Clergymen are still "followers" of a religion, and they certainly did not try to innovate the canon by writing new stories.
Grimlock wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:09 am
pepd wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:50 pmYou are just bringing a specific different definition of "canon" to which there would be indeed no DB canon, to paint that there is no canon according to the canon everyone else is talking about.
No, I'm bringing the definition of canon. Also, is wikipedia even a reliable source? Probably not, but if it somehow is, it already starts with an erroneous sentence: "canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base." If that's the canon "everyone talks about", then I see now where they are getting things wrong.

When are people going to learn that fans do not have a say in what's canonical? You are not entitled to that. Please learn this already.
Words can gain different meanings over time, dude. The article is specifically talking about the definition of "canon" when applied to fictional works, which has been used that way for decades. You can't force a word to lose its meaning, and being stubborn is not going to erase that definition.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:16 amWords can gain different meanings over time, dude. The article is specifically talking about the definition of "canon" when applied to fictional works, which has been used that way for decades. You can't force a word to lose its meaning, and being stubborn is not going to erase that definition.
And until that happens officially, until I open a dictionary and find that definition for fictional works, fans still don't get say anything about canon. That definition applied to the word was and still is something made up by fans. It's not an official and acknowledged definition and so it matters little.

Again, the majority of people saying or believing in someone or something does not make that someone or something real or fact. Don't be stubborn about this.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

Post Reply