Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:32 am

Grimlock wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am snip
you know that slang exists, and that many slang terms are not recognized by official dictionaries, right?
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17542
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:37 am

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:16 am Firstly, Copyright and intellectual property did not exist back then, because physical texts were much more difficult to copy and distribute.
Secondly, the truthfulness of Christianity does not matter. The people who recorded, say, the New testament were long dead before [multiple] canons were compiled by the church authorities (it wasn't until the third century when canonic consistency appeared). Clergymen are still "followers" of a religion, and they certainly did not try to innovate the canon by writing new stories.
(I'm really just playing Devil's Advocate here. If we're tossing around terminology and retroactively applying it to things, why not apply it this way?)
Grimlock wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:27 am Again, the majority of people saying or believing in someone or something does not make that someone or something real or fact.
I guess this is part of where I come down.

Which fans? Why those specific fans compared to any other specific fans? How many of them? How did you survey them? What is the ratio of a disagreeing viewpoint among the same surveyed group compared to the majority opinion? Has that survey been done multiple times over multiple years with the addition of subsequent works and their impact on the franchise?

I don't say all this as some lame "appeal to majority" grade school thought exercise. I mean it for real. Every single one of those questions.

Who says? Honestly, who says? Name the names. Who are they?

Since it's unreasonable to expect some kind of general consensus among all of fandom everywhere, you'd have to set up some kind of appointed authority group to establish that viewpoint. But who gets to be this authority and why? What if the majority actually doesn't agree with what the authority sets?

And since all of that is complete nonsense, why not just leave it to the controlling rights-holders?

And if they're unwilling to establish anything concretely (and this is truly where I ultimately fall), why not just laugh about how silly the situation is, explain the inconsistencies when someone asks about them, and move on with our lives?

Anyway, with regard to the actual topic of discussion for this thread: I'm slightly annoyed the revival happened because we still have so much old stuff we want to work on, and all this newfangled stuff just gets in the way! :lol:
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:24 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:09 am.

When are people going to learn that fans do not have a say in what's canonical? You are not entitled to that. Please learn this already.
But they’re not. You’re not going to hear fans say “Dragon Ball Z Abridged is canon!” (A minority of overzealous weirdos who are mostly joking aside) because that would be asinine.

You do understand words and language is just how we communicate. The fact that most people understand each other when using the term canon as applied to fiction should be sufficient. But apparently not for you. Again, that is a you problem.
The only thing Toriyama did was coming up with another Broly. Toriyama's Broly does not erases Z Broly. Now we have two Brolys in and out-universe. Both can be canonical if they ever deem them as such.
Correct, Toriyama’s Broly doesn’t erase Koyama’s Broly. I’ve been arguing this from the beginning. But to quote you

Only Akira Toriyama and Shueisha have the right to decree a rule, a standard, a norm... A canon in Dragon Ball. You can't have these things established by itself, or by no one. You have to have someone with authoritative power and the right to do that. If a principle is "accepted", it's "accepted" by whom? You'll say "by those who have the control". Not "by no one" or "by itself". This does not exist. You need a person
Then Dragon Ball Super Broly is the canon story for both Goku’s origin (as opposed to the Bardock tv special) and Broly (as opposed to the Z Broly movies) because Toriyama himself wrote it and it takes the place of those events. I’m sorry you need Toriyama to personally hold your hand and tell you very slowly that the movie he wrote is canon and the earlier stuff is not. But that’s just how it is.



Now, again, that does not invalidate those works. They still exist. Fans can still watch Dragon Ball Z with the events of the Bardock tv special in mind, which I do, and those doesn’t make them any less correct than fans going by Dragon Ball Minus. Especially since Minus didn’t come out until nearly 2 decades later. But again if Toriyama is the accepted authority of what is canon the origin depicted in Dragon Ball Minus/Dragon Ball Super Broly is the canon one.




More like I'm the only one here with a critical thought. Or do you think going around screaming "that's non-canon" is being critical of the situation?
The irony of you accusing others of screaming. When the only one throwing a fit of how the term canon is used is you.
I mean, it's clear you don't have a grasp of how things usually work, you see something not by the author and you already make baseless claims, so... where's your critical thought?
You- Canon is what’s declared by the author

Also You- Toriyama never said the movie he wrote was canon and he never said the movies that contradict his take wasn’t canon! I need him to literally use the words canon in his mouth or it doesn’t count!!!!

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:54 pm

Yeah we don't need Toriyama to literally say "THIS RIGHT HERE IS CANON, THIS IS NOT CANON", because these things are easily understood.

For instance, the original manga written by Toriyama is obviously more canon than Dragon Ball Heroes. It just is, you don't need Toriyama to tell you this, to know that the work written by the author himself has a higher rank of canonicity than an arcade videogame not made in any way by the original author (while the anime and manga of Super had several inputs from him).

If it makes you feel better, we can say that in the Videogame continuity Dragon Ball Heroes is canon, just like Xenoverse. But in Toriyama's story (DB, DBZ, Super), then Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse are not canon.

Experimentally, this means that for example original characters of Heroes like Hearts will never be featured in the Granolah arc :think:

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17542
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:59 pm

It's always "well it's obvious that Hearts isn't canon", but the prime example I always like to go to is:

How does the manga end? Does Goku give Oob Kinto'un? (i.e., is the original printing the canonical work, or is the revised version the canonical work? There are massively important and convincing reasons to go either way on this, and even I don't really have a solid opinion on it.)

But again, this isn't actually the topic of discussion for this thread...
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:02 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:54 pm

If it makes you feel better, we can say that in the Videogame continuity Dragon Ball Heroes is canon, just like Xenoverse. But in Toriyama's story (DB, DBZ, Super), then Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse are not canon :think:
And to clarify I have no issue with the term canon being used interchangeably with “official” since Shueisha, Toei, Toriyama, and Bandai are all the IP owners you can say that anything by them is canon. All the Dragon Ball movies from Legend of Shen Long to Super Super Hero are canon because Toei produced them. Dragon Ball Heroes is also canon because Toei/Bandai


But if we’re restricting canon to “Only Toriyama” then that kind of limits it to what only he wrote or provided storytelling concepts for.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:07 pm

To be honest I'm not so sure why people here started talking about canon and continuities. Super replacing GT as a continuation of Z (which is likely to happen since the new movie will take place around the End of Z...) shouldn't bother anyone who liked GT. You should like GT regardless of its canonicity. It would be very shallow if you only liked GT because it was the sole sequel of Z (at least before 2013) :think:

In other words, Super existing doesn't really remove the good or bad things GT did and so its existence has no impact on GT itself. Aside from crossovers like in Heroes.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:15 pm

I think there's a case to be made about the difference between DB, DBZ, DBKAI, GT, DBS, SDBH, XV2, etc... and DB AF, DB Multiverse, etc, right?

The former are all canon in some way, even if some of them do not share continuity, but the latter are not canon and aren't part of the continuity either.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:19 pm

Everything happens where everything happens.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:29 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:32 amyou know that slang exists, and that many slang terms are not recognized by official dictionaries, right?
Yes, I know that. And did you know that apples and oranges are different from each other? They're both good but they are different.

... Wait, I've just realized you're trying to make a point with that, am I right? Well, if so. Slangs is another issue altogether, no relation to what is being discussed here.
VegettoEX wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:37 amBeautiful words. Excellent and very pertinent questions to be made. And the most ideal approach to this subject.
May someone please answer all of VegettoEX's questions? Because those are also my questions that relate to my other questions from this post.
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:24 pmThe fact that most people understand each other when using the term canon as applied to fiction should be sufficient. But apparently not for you. Again, that is a you problem.
Most people understand each other because they are using the term "canon" wrongly. I'm the one who's using the term "canon" as it is meant to be used, that's why. This is not my problem, this is everyone's problem. Distorting a definition imposed not by ones that study languages and officially acknowledged, but a definition imposed by random people that hasn't, to this day, been acknowledged by any means other than by a massive group of fans.

That last sentence above brings us here, yet again: just because the majority of people do/say/act in a way, doesn't mean it's true.
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:24 pmI’m sorry you need Toriyama to personally hold your hand and tell you very slowly that the movie he wrote is canon and the earlier stuff is not.
Yeah, but that's how things are. Since you can understand that the existence of one doesn't invalid the other, you too need someone to hold your hand and clarify stuff. Why we have two Brolys, if one may take precedence over the other in-universe and etc.
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:24 pmThe irony of you accusing others of screaming. When the only one throwing a fit of how the term canon is used is you.
Well, you did ask me to spoonfeed you, and so I did. Why are you saying now I'm "throwing a fit"? I just did what you asked me to do. Like I said above, I'm just pointing out that the use of canon by fans is wrong. Does that equal to be "throwing a fit"?
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:24 pmYou- Canon is what’s declared by the author

Also You- Toriyama never said the movie he wrote was canon and he never said the movies that contradict his take wasn’t canon! I need him to literally use the words canon in his mouth or it doesn’t count!!!!
Grimlock wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:21 pmIf this seems contradictory to you, that's because it is. The nature of canonicity is rooted in contradiction. There's nothing we can do about it, there's nowhere to run but to accept this. It is such an abstract concept with so many different layers that it can be hard to truly learn everything about it.
Also, I merely showed what canon means. Still, we have people dismissing the movies in favor of their retellings. If it's so clear that whatever Toriyama does counts (without the need of a statement), why people dismiss the movies? Why people don't consider Neko Majin and Dragon Ball Online?



Speaking of the latter, why do people conveniently keep bringing up Dragon Ball Xenoverse, Dragon Ball Heroes and other games, but don't actually address the only game that has actually been officially meant to tie with the series (Dragon Ball Online)? It's curious that I don't see anyone saying a single thing about it, but keep bringing other games that don't have anything to do with anything here. :think: Very, very curious indeed.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:47 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:29 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:32 amyou know that slang exists, and that many slang terms are not recognized by official dictionaries, right?
Yes, I know that. And did you know that apples and oranges are different from each other? They're both good but they are different.

... Wait, I've just realized you're trying to make a point with that, am I right? Well, if so. Slangs is another issue altogether, no relation to what is being discussed here.
The point was that a record in official dictionaries is not necessary for a new definition/term to have meaning. "Canon" IS a slang phrase used in fandom communities to define a "main body" of work within a franchise. This renders any sort of semantics pedantry you are trying to argue with useless.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:02 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:47 pm"Canon" IS a slang phrase used in fandom communities to define a "main body" of work within a franchise.
Is that so? Does everyone agree with that? If so, what constitutes a "main body of work within a franchise"? Only each and every work specifically done by the author? Can/can't it deviate or have some branches along the way? Can other authors/works appear or be acknowledged in this "main body"? If so, by whom? If not, why not? Does it have any rules? If so, what are these rules we should follow?

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:47 pmThis renders any sort of semantics pedantry you are trying to argue with useless.
Hardly. While we do use languages to communicate with each other, that's precisely where misunderstanding comes from. All the vagueness, al the misuses, all the wrong applications and implications and many, many other issues...

Clarification above all else, folks!
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

SSJgogeto
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:04 pm

That's because that's all there is to it, opinions. Which fans also calls it "headcanon" in this situation. From your posts, there's a strong implication that you don't like any of those things, and so is only natural you won't consider them canonical. But in my case, I don't need to worry about because "not being considered by fans" is utterly irrelevant. Fans don't determine anything, but what about in your case? I mean, judging by the fact you didn't answer any of the pertinent questions about Neko Majin and by what you said below about Dragon Ball Online, you might be very worried this works are seen by the definition as/can turn canonical at any point. Just try to relax, these works won't hurt you!
Oh, don't worry, I'm fine. Maybe you've been trying to guess what I think because I touched a sore spot, but that's not the case, I can assure you.

Not only that, but I think consider something canonical or not just because you "don't like it" isn't by far the correct way to do things. I'll give you some examples: I kinda like Heroes (even if I think it's a overestimated fanfiction), I like the old movies and I like crossovers like Cross Epoch, but I don't think they are canon. I don't like Moro or Merus, but I think they're canon. I'm indifferent about DBO, and I think it might be canon.

And I didn't answer your questions because that wasn't necessary; I even highlighted some quotes because I thought, and I still think, that you're smart enough to figure that out.
So now we're ignoring piece of information and what has been said? Oh the convenience...
Not really. The piece of information you give is pretty ambiguous, we can tell that Toriyama has some participation in the game but that's it, what I said before still remains. Also, if I remember correctly, in another topic you chose to ignore a clear retcon in the manga in favor of the Daizenshuu. Talk about glass houses, right?

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17542
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:06 pm

Last warnings/points/thoughts before account warnings:

I'm all for pedantry, but not when you're losing the entire point of the conversation.

Drop the accusatory language and attitude.

This thread isn't actually about canonicity.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:12 pm

Heroes is good, actually. I think it adds an interesting avenue to see different types of scenarios portrayed through various types of media and I quite enjoy that. 'Fan fiction' is not the pejorative so many folks seem to think it is. Fan fiction is good, actually, and has a rich history in the queer and fem communities. I understand that men--being so regularly fed by licensed productions--have no need for these alternative avenues but one must keep in mind that audiences will always exist separate from you and they will seek their own avenues of artistic expression, too.

Heroes is good. Super is good. Oh, I have more issues than a motherfucker with both (Yamamuro, capitalism, short runtime) but they've still added a tremendous amount of good content to the franchise and we should approach them not as blights but as important steps forward in creating a more inclusive and expressive fandom.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:34 pm

Fan fiction has a nice function but it's usually of low quality.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:16 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:34 pm Fan fiction has a nice function but it's usually of low quality.
Goddamn, you're a pessimist.

Who cares? Everything has stuff that sucks! Focus on the good.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:16 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:34 pm Fan fiction has a nice function but it's usually of low quality.
Goddamn, you're a pessimist.

Who cares? Everything has stuff that sucks! Focus on the good.
Not really. I just don't like it and so I stay away from it. I've honestly never read any good fanfic. And instead of looking for it hoping for a different result, I simply don't read it anymore. If that's your thing, more power to you, but it's just not mine. It's usually of terrible quality, contains a lot of wish fulfillment, or doesn't get the voice of the characters they are writing, a combo of all three, or all of them.

I'm well aware everything has stuff that sucks. Most stuff sucks, but there isn't enough good fanfic for me to keep hoping for a different result. There is however plenty of good or great or simply entertaining stuff out there to make it worth it. I can't say the same for fanfic. If that makes me a pessimist, so be it. It's just not my thing.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
KingVegetto
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:05 pm

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by KingVegetto » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:47 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:27 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:16 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:34 pm Fan fiction has a nice function but it's usually of low quality.
Goddamn, you're a pessimist.

Who cares? Everything has stuff that sucks! Focus on the good.
Not really. I just don't like it and so I stay away from it. I've honestly never read any good fanfic. And instead of looking for it hoping for a different result, I simply don't read it anymore. If that's your thing, more power to you, but it's just not mine. It's usually of terrible quality, contains a lot of wish fulfillment, or doesn't get the voice of the characters they are writing, a combo of all three, or all of them.

I'm well aware everything has stuff that sucks. Most stuff sucks, but there isn't enough good fanfic for me to keep hoping for a different result. There is however plenty of good or great or simply entertaining stuff out there to make it worth it. I can't say the same for fanfic. If that makes me a pessimist, so be it. It's just not my thing.
I've read plenty of good ones myself, some of them being better quality then actual official products. God knows i'd much rather read a dozen DBZ fics on FF.net then read Minus again.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:29 am

I write a lot of fan fiction and read a lot of fan fiction.

Most fan fiction is garbage - even the ones that are written well in a vacuum tend to horribly miss the point of the series and are self-indulgent misinterpretations of the characters. The readers aren't the strongest judges of taste either, and I would know - I have two fics in the past that became pretty popular, and they are objectively utter garbage. Not even in a "every creator hates his own work!" kind of way, either.

There's good ones if you know what to look for and vet the authors, though
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

Post Reply