Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:08 pm

Skar wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:46 pm
ABED wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:38 pmI like the Bond films' use of continuity, namely that it's vague and unimportant except in regards to what little backstory we get about Bond - He's an orphan whose parents died in a climbing accident. That's really the only thing that's stayed through the 30+ films. Otherwise, it's like "how is Judi Dench's M the one who recruited Bond when Bond was there before her in Goldeneye?" The simple answer "It doesn't matter"
I was reading about the Bond novels because I was curious of the film's chronological order. I found out they were produced out of order so they were more episodic and standalone than the novels. It's not really an issue since it works better for a film franchise and offers more freedom.
The way the films were adapted was generally effective for the wider movie audience, but did create problems in certain cases. With the books On Her Majesty's Secret Service came before You Only Live Twice, but with the films the order was reversed. The film You Only Live Twice largely deviated from the novel, and had bond meeting Blofeld for the first time.

Then On Her Majesty's Secret Service was much closer to its novel (moreso than any other Bond film). Because Bond meets Blofeld for the first time in the OHMSS novel, the faithfully adapted film also makes it seem like they're meeting for the first time. This is strange as we saw them meet in the previous film (part of which is shown in flashbacks during the title sequence along with the other 4 Connery films), and yet here they appear not to recognize each other, and initially only have suspicions of the others' true identity.

Funnily enough From Russia With Love and Dr No also had their orders reversed. The Dr No film even refers to Bond's Beretta jamming on his previous mission, which actually happened in the From Russia With Love novel and was a reference to precisely that.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:34 pm

No, because there's no official canon, so you can just escape into your happy place and pretend DB ended with the original manga if you hate the new stuff. In the meantime, there's a whole new generation of fans that have been introduced or reintroduced into the franchise thanks to Super.

Personally, I enjoyed Super more than GT, but there was more bad than good in it for me, with some of the good being very good, but that only happened in the very last arc. Also, that Super Broly movie is hands down the best in the franchise by a country mile.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:05 am

Kaboom wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:23 am It's more the fandom that tries to use Super to pretend GT no longer matters or exists, rather than the franchise creators. Toei et al clearly have no qualms about acknowledging GT or making use of its elements... just look how prominent of a role Super Saiyan 4 still has in Heroes, even being given a fancy new power-up of its own.
They can still make merchadise for characters from something that is not popular. The PS2 era of Mortal Kombat and Crash Bandicoot still have fan favorite characters, but the stories from those games are ignored in the newer games. For example, Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance-Armageddon never happen in the new timeline. Crash Bandicoot 4 ignores the post-PS1 games as if they never happen. GT still exist as its own thing, but it does not exist in the Super timeline. Even if Super goes beyond DBZ, they can still make GT stuff that is not linked into super. Heroes already considers SSj4 Goku as a different character from Goku from DBS.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 am

fadeddreams5 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:34 pm No, because there's no official canon,
Not that it ultimatley matters what is or isn't canon, but where do people get the notion that there's no canon and ("official canon" is redundantly redundant) what does that even mean?
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:24 am

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 am
fadeddreams5 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:34 pm No, because there's no official canon,
Not that it ultimatley matters what is or isn't canon, but where do people get the notion that there's no canon and ("official canon" is redundantly redundant) what does that even mean?
Well, as Masenko was stating earlier, there's no "sacred text" when it comes to the different Dragon Ball anime. You can't really make a legitimate case that "GT is canon and Super isn't/Super is canon and GT isn't" or that the movies aren't "canon" just because they don't fit in with anything, etc. You said yourself that canon is about getting the puzzle pieces to fit together. Well, I don't see Super trying to "fit" with GT, but that doesn't make GT any less "canon" if you want to use that term. GT still exists as a continuation to Z within the anime. I also don't see Toei trying to make some of the contradictory filler in the original anime make sense, or make the movies fit properly with the show timeline. I just don't see a point in trying to make the various Dragon Ball anime fit a canon or different "levels" of canon. That just gets too convoluted and isn't ever going to make sense. And contradictions still exist even if you want to bring a Multiverse into the discussion. The purpose of canon for fans is to bring a sense of immersion by (again, as you said) making the puzzle fit together (not so much immersion in the individual story itself, but the overaching one if there is one and the world it takes place in).

If there is a "canon," the Toriyama's manga is all that makes sense. But if we're talking the various anime, it makes perfect sense to say there's no canon because there isn't. Toei doesn't outright come and say that any of the shows or movies matter more or less than the other. And even if there is, you're going through various hoops and hurdles to try to explain it, and Dragon Ball honestly isn't that deep. I don't think Toei or Toriyama have ever used the term and I don't think they care. Any talk of canon within the Dragon Ball fandom is pretty much purely the fandom putting it together, including the pointless, petty squabbling about whether or not GT or Super is "official."

You can also turn it around and say "everything is canon" as a blanket way of saying it all "counts" in some official capacity regardless of if it fits together or not, if you really really wanted to declare that Dragon Ball has a canon. Some people do this, although that kind of defeats the purpose of canon in the first place. That's what I meant about semantics earlier; if it's an official product in any capacity, it doesn't really matter whether it's called canon or not, because it's officially released.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:01 am

The issue is thinking there has to be a single canon. Maybe there's a distinction between continuity and canon, I don't know but GT has its own canon and Super has its own.

Toriyama doesn't have to say what is or isn't canon because he wrote the story. It's implicit. And in case anyone is thinking it, no, you don't need some official source to explicitly state what is or isn't.

I find the whole "there is no canon" for DB silly. Of course DB has continuity. It has several in fact. Saying there's none just feels like a way to end an argument. To my mind, the better answer is to say there are several and it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things what is or isn't canon to what. All that matters is if you enjoy it. The only way it truly matters to the story is wondering what version of events the story is taking into account. For instance, the DBZ filler is in continuity with GT.

For Super and any other future DB stories, it's likely that filler is not part of it.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:02 am

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:01 am The issue is thinking there has to be a single canon. Maybe there's a distinction between continuity and canon, I don't know but GT has its own canon and Super has its own.

Toriyama doesn't have to say what is or isn't canon because he wrote the story. It's implicit. And in case anyone is thinking it, no, you don't need some official source to explicitly state what is or isn't.

I find the whole "there is no canon" for DB silly. Of course DB has continuity. It has several in fact. Saying there's none just feels like a way to end an argument. To my mind, the better answer is to say there are several and it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things what is or isn't canon to what. All that matters is if you enjoy it. The only way it truly matters to the story is wondering what version of events the story is taking into account. For instance, the DBZ filler is in continuity with GT.

For Super and any other future DB stories, it's likely that filler is not part of it.
Pretty much this. Something doesn't need to be "officially canon" to be enjoyed, but saying there is no established continuity just isn't true. It doesn't need to be officially stated as it's obvious from simply watching/reading the story. The movies simply can't happen in the same continuity as the series for obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean they can't be enjoyed.

Any story by definition has continuity. Goku met Bulma at Mount Paozu and went on subsequent adventures. That happened. If canon=continuity then saying there is no canon is basically saying there is no story.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:08 am

At this point it is clear that Super is part of the Official Canon written by Toriyama, while GT isn't. Simply because what happens in Super clearly contradicts and overwrites what happens in GT.

For instance, if Super and GT could fit in the same continuity, why didn't Beerus and Whis take actions against Omega Shenron, who was threatening to destroy the entire Universe? Or why is Frieza in Hell with Cell when he was revived at the end of the Tournament of Power? Or why does Hell look like that in the first place, when we know each villain has their separate Hell? Why are Doctor Myuu and Gero together when every villain is locked in their own pocket Hell? Etc. etc. etc.

So since it's obvious that Super and GT cannot coexist in the same continuity, it is Super that takes precedence, as it is written by Toriyama.

Plus, with the new movie nearing the End of Z, it is clear that Super will soon replace GT in the years following the End of Z. :think:

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:08 am At this point it is clear that Super is part of the Official Canon written by Toriyama, while GT isn't. Simply because what happens in Super clearly contradicts and overwrites what happens in GT.

For instance, if Super and GT could fit in the same continuity, why didn't Beerus and Whis take actions against Omega Shenron, who was threatening to destroy the entire Universe? Or why is Frieza in Hell with Cell when he was revived at the end of the Tournament of Power? Or why does Hell look like that in the first place, when we know each villain has their separate Hell? Why are Doctor Myuu and Gero together when every villain is locked in their own pocket Hell? Etc. etc. etc.

So since it's obvious that Super and GT cannot coexist in the same continuity, it is Super that takes precedence, as it is written by Toriyama.

Plus, with the new movie nearing the End of Z, it is clear that Super will soon replace GT in the years following the End of Z. :think:
Those are slightly odd choices for you to use as examples. I mean, sure, but Beerus could have just gone back to his hibernation. Freeza could've been killed again. The biggie is the transformations, really. Those are hard to go back from.

Nah, it's obvious that the events of GT simply don't happen in the main continuity.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:51 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:24 am
ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 am
fadeddreams5 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:34 pm No, because there's no official canon,
Not that it ultimatley matters what is or isn't canon, but where do people get the notion that there's no canon and ("official canon" is redundantly redundant) what does that even mean?
Well, as Masenko was stating earlier, there's no "sacred text" when it comes to the different Dragon Ball anime.

That was more commentary on someone acting like they were morally incapable of watching GT anymore because Super says it doesn’t happen anymore.


Continuity and canon is always in flux. For the longest time most fans would consider the Bardock tv special canon regardless of the fact that Toriyama didn’t write it. It fit in just fine with the story, Toriyama imported Bardock into the manga practically giving the story his stamp of approval even Toei’s “‘manga edit” Dragon Ball Kai included footage from the special as the prologue letting us know the events still happened.


And then lol Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball Minus letting us know how it really went down and Dragon Ball Super Broli incorporated it into it’s script.


But Bardock’s tv special no longer being the official backstory doesn’t erase its existence. When I’m watching Dragon Ball>Z>GT. The Bardock tv special is what I have in mind as the backstory. I only consider Dragon Ball Minus when watching Super.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:55 am

TheGreatness25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:23 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:08 am At this point it is clear that Super is part of the Official Canon written by Toriyama, while GT isn't. Simply because what happens in Super clearly contradicts and overwrites what happens in GT.

For instance, if Super and GT could fit in the same continuity, why didn't Beerus and Whis take actions against Omega Shenron, who was threatening to destroy the entire Universe? Or why is Frieza in Hell with Cell when he was revived at the end of the Tournament of Power? Or why does Hell look like that in the first place, when we know each villain has their separate Hell? Why are Doctor Myuu and Gero together when every villain is locked in their own pocket Hell? Etc. etc. etc.

So since it's obvious that Super and GT cannot coexist in the same continuity, it is Super that takes precedence, as it is written by Toriyama.

Plus, with the new movie nearing the End of Z, it is clear that Super will soon replace GT in the years following the End of Z. :think:
Those are slightly odd choices for you to use as examples. I mean, sure, but Beerus could have just gone back to his hibernation. Freeza could've been killed again. The biggie is the transformations, really. Those are hard to go back from.

Nah, it's obvious that the events of GT simply don't happen in the main continuity.
The entire depiction of Hell makes GT non-canon, as I was saying.

Since we know that Toriyama envisions Hell as a series of pocket realms for each villain. Which means that Frieza has his own private Hell and can't possibly meet up with Cell. We also see that Frieza's Hell is a beautiful paradise inhabited by fairies and stupid animals, which is the opposite of GT Hell (a bleak landscape).

But this is nothing new, there are also some sections of DBZ that are filler, with the new knowledge coming from Super. Since we know Frieza had his own personal Hell in Super, that scene in DBZ where Frieza, Cell, and co. are watching the Majin Buu fight is non-canonical...

Also I don't think Beerus would go back to bed without having had his rematch with Goku, but how would Goku possibly stand a chance against Beerus without Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego? I'm afraid the monkey form GT introduced wouldn't be enough :roll:

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:49 am

Uh, obviously Gokub beats Beerus and Beerus goes to sleep. But then, Goku is like, "Oh no! I'm too powerful! Where ever will I find an opponent that could rival me!?" And then he uses the Super Dragon Balls to wish that he would eliminate every form past Super Saiyan 3. And Vegeta's like, "Oh no! You're not going to make yourself weaker before I legitimately beat you!" So, then Vegeta makes the same wish, but Super Shenlong is like, "You know your never got Super Saiyan 3! You'll max out at Super Saiyan 2!" And then Pilaf will wish him, Shu, and Mai to be older and accidentally with the second wish, he'll be like, "I wish we could all just forget about all of this!" And then, Freeza will be like, "Whoa! How am I alive!? I have to take this opportunity to wish that Hell was different before I eventually go back!" So, he does and then gets sick and dies. Oh, and Broli forget changes his outfit like it was in the totally canon movie and he dies of natural causes too.

I'm pretty sure this is how Super is really going to end.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:59 am

Now that I think about it, wasn't Old Broly part of the escaped villains from Hell? At least I'm sure I saw Cooler escaping from Hell which would imply that every other DBZ Movie villain also escaped from Hell with him...

Add that to the list of reasons why GT can't be Canon to Toriyama/Super's Continuity :think:

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:20 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:59 am Now that I think about it, wasn't Old Broly part of the escaped villains from Hell? At least I'm sure I saw Cooler escaping from Hell which would imply that every other DBZ Movie villain also escaped from Hell with him...

Add that to the list of reasons why GT can't be Canon to Toriyama/Super's Continuity :think:
Just yesterday I saw a screencap that jokingly wondered if Broly had a headache that day because he was not part of the escapees.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:26 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:20 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:59 am Now that I think about it, wasn't Old Broly part of the escaped villains from Hell? At least I'm sure I saw Cooler escaping from Hell which would imply that every other DBZ Movie villain also escaped from Hell with him...

Add that to the list of reasons why GT can't be Canon to Toriyama/Super's Continuity :think:
Just yesterday I saw a screencap that jokingly wondered if Broly had a headache that day because he was not part of the escapees.
Maybe he got reincarnated as someone with a personality.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:26 am
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:20 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:59 am Now that I think about it, wasn't Old Broly part of the escaped villains from Hell? At least I'm sure I saw Cooler escaping from Hell which would imply that every other DBZ Movie villain also escaped from Hell with him...

Add that to the list of reasons why GT can't be Canon to Toriyama/Super's Continuity :think:
Just yesterday I saw a screencap that jokingly wondered if Broly had a headache that day because he was not part of the escapees.
Maybe he got reincarnated as someone with a personality.
So he reincarnated as himself?
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:19 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:26 am
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:20 am

Just yesterday I saw a screencap that jokingly wondered if Broly had a headache that day because he was not part of the escapees.
Maybe he got reincarnated as someone with a personality.
So he reincarnated as himself?
Saying KAKARATTO isn’t a personality.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:25 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:19 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:26 am

Maybe he got reincarnated as someone with a personality.
So he reincarnated as himself?
Saying KAKARATTO isn’t a personality.
He says a lot more lines that "kakarotto"
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:27 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:08 am At this point it is clear that Super is part of the Official Canon written by Toriyama, while GT isn't. Simply because what happens in Super clearly contradicts and overwrites what happens in GT.

For instance, if Super and GT could fit in the same continuity, why didn't Beerus and Whis take actions against Omega Shenron, who was threatening to destroy the entire Universe? Or why is Frieza in Hell with Cell when he was revived at the end of the Tournament of Power? Or why does Hell look like that in the first place, when we know each villain has their separate Hell? Why are Doctor Myuu and Gero together when every villain is locked in their own pocket Hell? Etc. etc. etc.
If you want other reasons why the two can't fit:

Pilaf does not recognize Goku in GT despite seeing him as an adult in both DB and Super
Kibito and Shin are not fused together
Goku said that he hasn't seen Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin since they defeated Buu despite seeing him earlier
Vegeta not using Shunkan Ido despite him using in the Moro saga (Baby Vegeta could have used it instead of using a space ship to have everyone move from Earth to New Planet Plant)
Goku and Vegeta not using their new forms
Gohan can transform into his mystic form, but he can't in GT
Freeza not using his golden form
Where's Moro in GT if he died and went to Hell? I doubt anyone on Earth can kill him without any god ki.
#17 in Super pretty much contradicts everything in the Super 17 saga. In the Super 17 saga, they mention that they haven't seen #17 since he was absorbed by Cell. Kuririn had to remind #17 on how he was and why he has human emotions.
Goku said that Super Yi Xing Long is the strongest person that he has ever met despite meeting Zeno.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:35 pm

To answer the question asked by the OP, no, I'm not annoyed the revival ever happened. While there are certainly some elements introduced in the new stories that create issues with some of the themes in the original story, they can be ultimately ignored because Dragon Ball ended in 1995. Any material that has been released since then can be held in the same regard as the guidebooks and the videogames. If any new material is good, that's great. It can be enjoyed by fans. If it's shit, it can be ignored because, well, it's not going to literally change anything that has already been written and drawn by Toriyama in the manga. It's not like western comics where the story is eternal and constant revisions and retcons can happen.

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