Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

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ABED
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:51 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:58 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:51 pm To be fair, I don't think Feige's point is "it all counts" and is just "lets have fun"
Honestly I think that's just semantics; for all intents and purposes, it's still essentially the same thing. It's definitely not saying "Well this counts, and this doesn't" and blah blah. And saying something doesn't not count is just another way of saying it can count; so again, for all this talk of canon, the terms are so loose that I think it's a fruitless endeavor in the first place. What with What-If (at first saying it's non-canon, then saying it is). And even with what seems to be happening with Spider-Man: Far From Home.
That's not remotely semantics. It's not about having all the canon count. It's all about having a bunch of fun toys in the playpen, not about getting all the puzzle pieces to fit together.

When did they ever say What If? was or wasn't canon?
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:59 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:51 pm That's not remotely semantics. It's not about having all the canon count. It's all about having a bunch of fun toys in the playpen, not about getting all the puzzle pieces to fit together.

When did they ever say What If? was or wasn't canon?
Like I said...that's literally the same exact thing. Getting to play with all the toys in the playpen is the same as saying it all has relevance. At this point, they're not giving more or less weight to one thing over another, and it doesn't have to line up perfectly. They've effectively been saying that none of it is not canon. Out of curiosity, did you watch Loki? Even its season finale was kind of a way of dealing with this. As to your last question: https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/ ... ad_writer/

I'm lost as to where we're differing here because I think we're both agreeing...? My whole point in mentioning What-If is exactly that Marvel doesn't care about getting the puzzle pieces to fit together. Same as with Dragon Ball. Which is still like saying canon doesn't really mean anything either way.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:18 pm

It is LITERALLY not. It's not about relevance. It isn't about getting things to line up or saying "this and that counts" for the sake of it counting in some imaginary book or whatever or getting the pieces of the puzzle to fit nicely, it's just about the audience enjoying seeing different versions of the same character on screen because it's a fun idea.

When people are talking about things counting or losing canon status, they say it as if something not being considered in continuity with the main story makes it devalued. The MCU isn't doing this all so those other films have value, he's doing it because he thinks it will be fun for an audience to see.

The idea at the end of Loki isn't really about canon as much as chaos theory. They are upping the stakes of the story.

I got that, I meant when did it supposedly change from being non canon to canon? When did they say "this isn't canon"?
Last edited by ABED on Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:22 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:18 pm It is LITERALLY not. It's not about relevance. It isn't about getting things to line up or saying "this and that counts" for the sake of it counting in some imaginary book or whatever or getting the pieces of the puzzle to fit nicely, it's just about the audience enjoying seeing different versions of the same character on screen because it's a fun idea.

The idea at the end of Loki isn't really about canon as much as chaos theory. They are upping the stakes of the story.

I got that, I meant when did it supposedly change from being non canon to canon? When did they say "this isn't canon"?
You're kind of getting stuck on the definition of canon, something which I'm admittedly too tired to get into tonight and probably never will :crazy: ...but definitions aside, if you look past that, we're kind of saying the exact same thing lol. Maybe I just haven't explained myself well enough, because I still don't disagree with what you're saying overall.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:24 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:22 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:18 pm It is LITERALLY not. It's not about relevance. It isn't about getting things to line up or saying "this and that counts" for the sake of it counting in some imaginary book or whatever or getting the pieces of the puzzle to fit nicely, it's just about the audience enjoying seeing different versions of the same character on screen because it's a fun idea.

The idea at the end of Loki isn't really about canon as much as chaos theory. They are upping the stakes of the story.

I got that, I meant when did it supposedly change from being non canon to canon? When did they say "this isn't canon"?
You're kind of getting stuck on the definition of canon, something which I'm admittedly too tired to get into tonight and probably never will...but definitions aside, if you look past that, we're kind of saying the exact same thing lol.
In what world is "this is relevant" the same as "put these two things in the same thing is fun"?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:25 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:24 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:22 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:18 pm It is LITERALLY not. It's not about relevance. It isn't about getting things to line up or saying "this and that counts" for the sake of it counting in some imaginary book or whatever or getting the pieces of the puzzle to fit nicely, it's just about the audience enjoying seeing different versions of the same character on screen because it's a fun idea.

The idea at the end of Loki isn't really about canon as much as chaos theory. They are upping the stakes of the story.

I got that, I meant when did it supposedly change from being non canon to canon? When did they say "this isn't canon"?
You're kind of getting stuck on the definition of canon, something which I'm admittedly too tired to get into tonight and probably never will...but definitions aside, if you look past that, we're kind of saying the exact same thing lol.
In what world is "this is relevant" the same as "put these two things in the same thing is fun"?
I'm sorry, what? Where are you getting the idea that the "fun" stuff is being said to be any less relevant? I haven't seen where Feige or any of the writers have stated that.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:27 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:25 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:24 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:22 pm
You're kind of getting stuck on the definition of canon, something which I'm admittedly too tired to get into tonight and probably never will...but definitions aside, if you look past that, we're kind of saying the exact same thing lol.
In what world is "this is relevant" the same as "put these two things in the same thing is fun"?
I'm sorry, what?
What the hell are you confused about? You said they were the same thing. And all of a sudden you're confused by this? You were the one claiming it was semantics and they are the same thing.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:29 pm

^My bad, I edited my comment to ask another question. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the "fun" stuff is meant to be any less relevant. Unless you can point me to where Feige or someone stated that.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:37 pm

I don't know why people hate the idea of RoF so much? Freeza's return in the past was treated like a joke and it was nice to see him have a come back that was treated more seriously. RoF made more sense than the Super 17 saga did in GT in my opinion.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:38 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:37 pm I don't know why people hate the idea of RoF so much? Freeza's return in the past was treated like a joke and it was nice to see him have a come back that was treated more seriously. RoF made more sense than the Super 17 saga did in GT in my opinion.
But in the end, despite it being more "earnest" it comes off like a joke. He is defeated for the same exact reason as last time - his most powerful form uses too much energy.
^My bad, I edited my comment to ask another question. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the "fun" stuff is meant to be any less relevant. Unless you can point me to where Feige or someone stated that.
Because I didn't claim "being fun" is antithetical to relevance, only that they are two different ideas. You were the one that claimed "that's semantics".
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Skar » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:46 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:38 pmI like the Bond films' use of continuity, namely that it's vague and unimportant except in regards to what little backstory we get about Bond - He's an orphan whose parents died in a climbing accident. That's really the only thing that's stayed through the 30+ films. Otherwise, it's like "how is Judi Dench's M the one who recruited Bond when Bond was there before her in Goldeneye?" The simple answer "It doesn't matter"
I was reading about the Bond novels because I was curious of the film's chronological order. I found out they were produced out of order so they were more episodic and standalone than the novels. It's not really an issue since it works better for a film franchise and offers more freedom.

I think consistency varies depending on the author. It's more of a "spectrum" since not many stories are going to be 100% consistency but I don't think any are the opposite extreme of zero consistency or any kind of internal logic. For example, this is what the author of One Piece said about it:
He's acknowledging some fans care about consistency more than others and he tried to have it in his story. There were could still be stories written that don't care too much about it.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:52 pm

And it made sense back during the 60s to make the films more episodic since home video didn't exist yet so you couldn't just watch the previous films whenever you wanted to prepare for the next one. With novels, they're in the the store or library.

Was Japanese TV more serialized in general than US TV? Or is DB's super serialization the result of it starting as a manga?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:56 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:38 pm Because I didn't claim "being fun" is antithetical to relevance, only that they are two different ideas. You were the one that claimed "that's semantics".
I was referring to Feige's comments as being semantics, not yours. He's not outright saying anything is canon or not canon anymore. Main point being that his comments don't say that What-If? is any less canon than anything else, and that the MCU continuity in general isn't clear-cut. It doesn't matter to them if it fits cleanly or not, but it exists. And in that article I linked, its writer even lists it as canon. Me saying "It all counts" was just another way of saying "It doesn't not count" or "It doesn't matter if it counts." You're saying that What If? doesn't need to fit neatly with everything else. I'm still not sure where we're actually disagreeing on anything. :eh:
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:12 pm

The point to the movie is that it was a more earnest return for Freeza, not that it ended as a joke. It couldn't have ended any other way, really. Those boxes, at least, were checked. That's not to say that the film was executed particularly well, or that it was even necessary. Just that it served its basic purpose.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:13 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:37 pm I don't know why people hate the idea of RoF so much? Freeza's return in the past was treated like a joke and it was nice to see him have a come back that was treated more seriously. RoF made more sense than the Super 17 saga did in GT in my opinion.
I'd still say Frieza's return before worked because it was a perfect introduction for Future Trunks. How do you introduce a younger, mysterious Super Saiyan even stronger than Goku? Bring Frieza back and show this guy dismantle him (the guy who was such a big deal in the previous arc) and all his followers, plus his father who is apparently even stronger, without breaking a sweat. Heck, show him being cocky about it (a nice bit of foreshadowing to his parentage). It was a great way of showing that Trunks was on a different level from Goku before, and it laid the stage for even more powerful foes to be introduced. I think it's less of Frieza looking like a joke, moreso Trunks looking like the real deal.

RoF and Super 17 are both at the bottom of their respective series for me, though.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Skar » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:18 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:52 pmWas Japanese TV more serialized in general than US TV? Or is DB's super serialization the result of it starting as a manga?
I'm not sure. When I check longest running manga or anime franchises, the top of the list were usually episodic. I think it was in the 90s that longer serialized manga became more common so he might've meant that fans started expecting more consistency from those types of stories than when they were more episodic.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:50 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:22 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:16 am As Masenko kindly pointed out, I didn't say anything of the sort. :eh:
What was your point with that commentary?
Just that some people have unrealistic expectations of the story, partly thanks to that one comment Toriyama made. Toriyama saying all the Toei Z movies take place "in another dimension" was basically his gentle way of saying that he doesn't view them as part of his continuity. He may take inspiration from Toei-original material when developing new stories that fit into the current setting, like with Bardock and Broly, but he's more interested in redeveloping these ideas rather than transplanting them over wholehog.

But me pointing that out was no indication of my preferences for the storyline of Super, which you assumed for some reason. Incidentally, I don't particularly want dudes like Tullece, Bojack and Janemba to pop into to the Dragon Ball Super reality with no foreshadowing for a quick fanservicey scrap (how they would even compete at the current godly level would be a decent concern), but neither did I say I want endless tournaments and arc retellings. Even if I did, how is that a worse alternative? I don't mind a tournament arc so long as it's a vehicle for a good story.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:30 am

Not to start something else up, but I wasn't talking about canon in my previous breakdown of why I felt badly for GT. It was more about feeling duped. Toei spent years selling its merchandise and at least had its chips in GT (so to speak). Then one day, it was suddenly like, "Thanks for buying the merchandise and supporting this product. But you can forget all about it now because it wasn't good enough, and you can spend money on this new one!" That's just how it felt and that's what I didn't like. You can sell a new product without crapping on the old one. Funimation does this too. When Kai was coming out, it was, "Oh! We were so terrible on the first run! Boy, what a bad job! Har har! Kai is the real deal! The definitive one!" Yeah, obviously, but there are people who liked their original dub and supported them through that and defended them when others were saying how awful they were. I can imagine how those fans felt when the crap that they supported was being talked down about by the damned people who made it. Or with every release that Funimation has, they use the past releases' inadequacies to promote the new one. Well, thanks, dicks, but you're the ones who put them out like that and you took our money while claiming it's the best, but now you're saying the complete opposite. I can't stand when a company doesn't stand by its products because it makes the people who supported those products feel like they were taken advantage of. And that's a real thing.

But, again, I'm over it and enjoying Super. Just haven't once touched any of my three GT releases sitting around since Super came out--why would I?

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:40 am

I wouldn't mind the movie villains crossing over into the Super reality if it means they all team up. A villain team-up could lead to interesting one-on-one or two-on-two battles in space and across dimensions. It's a decent way to utilize the entire cast while telling a lengthy, exhaustive story. Kind of like Super Friends meets Power Rangers in Space meets the War arc in Naruto.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 am

There's some things that have annoyed me about the revival, like Minus ruining Bardock's character, but I'm not really annoyed by it. And considering how popular Dragon Ball is around the world, I'm not surprised the revival happened.
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