Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:35 am

TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:30 am Not to start something else up, but I wasn't talking about canon in my previous breakdown of why I felt badly for GT. It was more about feeling duped. Toei spent years selling its merchandise and at least had its chips in GT (so to speak). Then one day, it was suddenly like, "Thanks for buying the merchandise and supporting this product. But you can forget all about it now because it wasn't good enough, and you can spend money on this new one!" That's just how it felt and that's what I didn't like. You can sell a new product without crapping on the old one.
Once again Super and GT not being compatible does not wipe GT from existence. It’s still a series that exist. No different than any other franchise that ignores certain sequels.

And seriously where did they crap on GT? Did someone at Toei say “GT was a mistake!” You’re making up issues in your head.

Funimation does this too. When Kai was coming out, it was, "Oh! We were so terrible on the first run! Boy, what a bad job! Har har! Kai is the real deal! The definitive one!" Yeah, obviously, but there are people who liked their original dub and supported them through that and defended them when others were saying how awful they were. I can imagine how those fans felt when the crap that they supported was being talked down about by the damned people who made it. Or with every release that Funimation has, they use the past releases' inadequacies to promote the new one. Well, thanks, dicks, but you're the ones who put them out like that and you took our money while claiming it's the best, but now you're saying the complete opposite. I can't stand when a company doesn't stand by its products because it makes the people who supported those products feel like they were taken advantage of. And that's a real thing.
Only Sabat and Schemmel really promoted Kai as superior. And why wouldn’t they? They had more creative control, they understood the story better, they improved as actors. Schemmel doesn’t exactly hide that he has a low opinion on Barry Watson as a producer.

FUNimation as a company may have focused their attention on Kai when it was the new current thing but it was more of “Dragon Ball Z with no filler!” not “Haha Z’s dub sucked we got it right now!” Since Kai has ended there’s definitely way more focus on Z again because well it sells better.

. Just haven't once touched any of my three GT releases sitting around since Super came out--why would I?
Well if you enjoy GT that would be a reason. Seriously, this is what I mean by being so overdramatic.

“Oh nooooo now that the current Dragon Ball series ignores GT I can’t watch GT anymore even though I liked it before!”

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:00 am

Yeah I don't get the mentality of not being able to enjoy something anymore because it's no longer part of the current continuity. Keeping GT would have been a huge obstacle for Super's writers to work around, and would ultimately be detrimental to the product. People love Beerus, the god forms, and Ultra Instinct, none of which could have existed if GT was still the future.

If you liked it before you there's no reason you can't enjoy it now. Who cares if it's non-canon. The BoG and RF movies are already in the same boat, but I still prefer them to equivalent Super's arcs.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:05 am

90sDBZ wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:00 am The BoG and RF movies are already in the same boat, but I still prefer them to equivalent Super's arcs.
Perfect example. The first two arcs of Super overwrote the movies but I’d still rather watch them than the Super equivalents. To the point of if I ever decided to revisit Super I’d probably watch those two movies first and then jump to the Champa arc.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:16 am

I could understand it if DBS blatantly said GT is off the table, like going out of their way with Whis saying there are no machine mutants anywhere, or that there are only 5 worlds with sentient life, that the DBs do not accrue negative energy or cannot be spread around the universe except for the SDB, or saying you can't build a lab in hell.

Like cutting ties with GT's keypoints, but quite the opposite, they introduce stuff from GT, re-imagining them like Broly and SS4, the general background of Granola's race, the ToP had a few nods at GT as well. DBS values stuff from GT, they don't write them off.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Kaboom » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:23 am

It's more the fandom that tries to use Super to pretend GT no longer matters or exists, rather than the franchise creators. Toei et al clearly have no qualms about acknowledging GT or making use of its elements... just look how prominent of a role Super Saiyan 4 still has in Heroes, even being given a fancy new power-up of its own.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:55 am

Yeah, younger fans (or just fans with less responsibilities) treat fandom like a competition. Once you've got more important things to do in life you begin to cut down on that type of thinking because all that matters is relieving stress, not needlessly making more by pitting two different branches of a tree against each other. Just...enjoy both.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:02 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:16 am I could understand it if DBS blatantly said GT is off the table, like going out of their way with Whis saying there are no machine mutants anywhere, or that there are only 5 worlds with sentient life, that the DBs do not accrue negative energy or cannot be spread around the universe except for the SDB, or saying you can't build a lab in hell.

Like cutting ties with GT's keypoints, but quite the opposite, they introduce stuff from GT, re-imagining them like Broly and SS4, the general background of Granola's race, the ToP had a few nods at GT as well. DBS values stuff from GT, they don't write them off.
Even that doesn't cause your GT DVDs to disappear. I watched it all after Super and literally just bought the singles.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:08 am

http://www.toei-animation-usa.com/dragon-ball.html


Isn’t it interesting that GT is included 🤔 but tell me again how they’re dismissing it.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:23 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:02 am
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:16 am I could understand it if DBS blatantly said GT is off the table, like going out of their way with Whis saying there are no machine mutants anywhere, or that there are only 5 worlds with sentient life, that the DBs do not accrue negative energy or cannot be spread around the universe except for the SDB, or saying you can't build a lab in hell.

Like cutting ties with GT's keypoints, but quite the opposite, they introduce stuff from GT, re-imagining them like Broly and SS4, the general background of Granola's race, the ToP had a few nods at GT as well. DBS values stuff from GT, they don't write them off.
Even that doesn't cause your GT DVDs to disappear. I watched it all after Super and literally just bought the singles.
I think it's a breath of fresh air, after so many gods and this gleeful new world introduced in BoG with so many colourful new forms, it's nice to go back to the old grim-looking world GT presents with older characters as well. It's an alternative, not a replacement.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:27 am

My thing is, even if GT was being ignored, I don't view movies or shows (or any work of art) as being stuck in a microcosm. They all literally exist for me to pick up and enjoy at any time, even if the company was ignoring them. The show was completed, and it's there to be revisited and enjoyed whenever. I don't need to see a bunch of GT merchandise lining the shelves or constant promo material of SSJ4, etc. to enjoy a show I love. That's the part I still don't understand.

That's sort of like me saying that because Tom Holland is the current Spider-Man and is the one that's pushed, I can't enjoy Sam Raimi's films anymore. Granted, as JulieYBM stated, younger fans like to make it competition, in this case Holland vs Garfield vs Maguire with Holland usually winning, but I'm pretty far removed from any of that. Honestly, they all have something I like, but the point is I still enjoy watching the older movies.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:55 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:23 am I think it's a breath of fresh air, after so many gods and this gleeful new world introduced in BoG with so many colourful new forms, it's nice to go back to the old grim-looking world GT presents with older characters as well. It's an alternative, not a replacement.
And see, that's a perspective on GT I didn't have before Super's existence. I bought into the "GT is trash" talk, especially with what I saw on Toonami and the horrible Mark Menza replacement score. And being younger, I was annoyed over silly things like Goku not wearing his classic orange gi, Vegeta having a moustache, etc.

Now in a post-Super world, I can appreciate the new character designs/outfits, the old-school post-Buu art style with the darker palette and film grain, the JP soundtrack/score, the characters being past EoZ and being older, consequences to relying too much on the Dragon Balls....

As you said, Super is kind of like being in a candy store or Toys R Us as a kid, while for me GT is like going to a...bookstore? Probably a terrible analogy, but I get different rewarding experiences from both of them, with a greater appreciation for the latter that has formed over time..
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:21 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:55 am
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:23 am I think it's a breath of fresh air, after so many gods and this gleeful new world introduced in BoG with so many colourful new forms, it's nice to go back to the old grim-looking world GT presents with older characters as well. It's an alternative, not a replacement.
And see, that's a perspective on GT I didn't have before Super's existence. I bought into the "GT is trash" talk, especially with what I saw on Toonami and the horrible Mark Menza replacement score. And being younger, I was annoyed over silly things like Goku not wearing his classic orange gi, Vegeta having a moustache, etc.

Now in a post-Super world, I can appreciate the new character designs/outfits, the old-school post-Buu art style with the darker palette and film grain, the JP soundtrack/score, the characters being past EoZ and being older, consequences to relying too much on the Dragon Balls....

As you said, Super is kind of like being in a candy store or Toys R Us as a kid, while for me GT is like going to a...bookstore? Probably a terrible analogy, but I get different rewarding experiences from both of them, with a greater appreciation for the latter that has formed over time..
Yeah, definitely. When I re-watch GT I get the feeling I'm going back in time to the 90s when the art was different, Buu was THE thing and the universe was more of a mysterious place. With DBS we tend to think on a multiversal level, GT treats it as if there's just one unexplored universe. And having the characters age so also makes for an interesting watch.

It's nice to also see the gang in a world where they aren't friends with the owner of the circus, there's no Beerus, no angels, no Zeno, no OP friend to come and save the day for them as we've seen in DBS, they are on their own, they are more vulnerable.
And it's not about which one is better, they are both different and interesting takes and we can enjoy them both.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:34 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:08 am http://www.toei-animation-usa.com/dragon-ball.html


Isn’t it interesting that GT is included 🤔 but tell me again how they’re dismissing it.
Funny little side note: Funimation kept their all of their DB sites except GT. dragonballgt.com says it can't connect or something.

Is anyone else surprised that we haven't gotten a Super video game?

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by pepd » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:13 pm

While I happen to prefer Tori's DB, can enjoy things like Slug, Tapion, DBM and DBSai without caring about them not being canon, and would probably enjoy other non-canon stuff as if were if I preferred them; I totally see TheGreatness25's point.

I mean, it effectively "replaces" GT and other non-canon stuff as the(main) story (not that they were part of it, but you know, in the fan perception). it may not explicitly negate it, but it does contradict and impossibilitates lore and events (sure, one may can construct a world in which all is part of the main story, but it would be a construct that considers it, not the actual main story). We have the same but in smaller scale with DBS anime and manga.
Of course, this comes down to attributing an intrinsically higher or exclusive value to fiction canon, while having appreciation for non-canon, and it would be great if people learned to not give a shit and enjoy what they want without needing for it have (or try to give it) canon value, but people feel what they feel, and I can empathize with the feeling.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:00 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:50 amJust that some people have unrealistic expectations of the story, partly thanks to that one comment Toriyama made. Toriyama saying all the Toei Z movies take place "in another dimension" was basically his gentle way of saying that he doesn't view them as part of his continuity. He may take inspiration from Toei-original material when developing new stories that fit into the current setting, like with Bardock and Broly, but he's more interested in redeveloping these ideas rather than transplanting them over wholehog.
There's nothing "unrealistic" about that. Dragon Ball is not afraid of being known as "Marvel/DC of Japan", we even got a chapter showing Goku's origins that perfectly mirrors Superman's origins. I'm not saying Marvel and DC created the Multiverse concept, but they are indeed the ones responsible for popularizing it, and most certainly Toriyama knew that popularity and decided to implement it in his work. So what's so "unrealistic" to be further inspired/influenced by this modern and very popular idea and use the alternate dimension concept?

We don't need Toriyama to say the movies aren't part of his continuity, it was obvious. However, by saying the movies take place in another dimension is acknowledging their events happening somewhere else, is giving the movies another "layer" to be explored. Also, we're too late now to disregard this idea completely. Dragon Ball Heroes has been doing precisely that (for years now), so it's a concept already firmly established and popularized in the franchise.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:50 ambut neither did I say I want endless tournaments and arc retellings. Even if I did, how is that a worse alternative? I don't mind a tournament arc so long as it's a vehicle for a good story.
Because tournaments haven't brought anything worthwhile and interesting to the table, and they don't present a story either, let alone a "good" one. They start and they finish exactly where it started, incapable of leading to somewhere, and we got two of those in a row. Not to mention that Universe 7 is the one that's gonna win, I wonder why... Tournaments are just a waste of everybody's time with endless fights and barely something to keep it interesting.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:11 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:00 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:50 amJust that some people have unrealistic expectations of the story, partly thanks to that one comment Toriyama made. Toriyama saying all the Toei Z movies take place "in another dimension" was basically his gentle way of saying that he doesn't view them as part of his continuity. He may take inspiration from Toei-original material when developing new stories that fit into the current setting, like with Bardock and Broly, but he's more interested in redeveloping these ideas rather than transplanting them over wholehog.
There's nothing "unrealistic" about that. Dragon Ball is not afraid of being known as "Marvel/DC of Japan", we even got a chapter showing Goku's origins that perfectly mirrors Superman's origins. I'm not saying Marvel and DC created the Multiverse concept, but they are indeed the ones responsible for popularizing it, and most certainly Toriyama knew that popularity and decided to implement it in his work.

So what's so "unrealistic" to be further inspired/influenced by this modern and very popular idea and use the alternate dimension concept?

We don't need Toriyama to say the movies aren't part of his continuity, it was obvious. However, by saying the movies take place in another dimension is acknowledging their events happening somewhere else, is giving the movies another "layer" to be explored. Also, we're too late now to disregard this idea completely. Dragon Ball Heroes has been doing precisely that (for years now), so it's a concept already firmly established and popularized in the franchise.
I don’t know how to tell you this but none of this stuff is gonna happen. Logan is right to say using the word other dimension is misleading. There is not going to be any Crisis on Infinite Dragon Ball Earth storyline’s. The alternate dimension stuff is just to let fans to not fret over things not fitting together in a single continuity. Movieverse!Goku is not going to team up with Manga!Goku and tv!Goku


Also Dragon Ball is a martial arts series not an Intergalactic multi dimension space wars opera. Tournaments are kind of its thing. Complaining about tournaments is like complaining a cooking show has too many cooking competitions.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:13 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:00 pm Because tournaments haven't brought anything worthwhile and interesting to the table, and they don't present a story either, let alone a "good" one. They start and they finish exactly where it started, incapable of leading to somewhere, and we got two of those in a row. Not to mention that Universe 7 is the one that's gonna win, I wonder why... Tournaments are just a waste of everybody's time with endless fights and barely something to keep it interesting.
This is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but this is a really odd take when it comes to Dragon Ball.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:08 pm

Yeah, I can sorta see where TheGreatness is coming from, but on the same token, Toei and Bandai Namco have gone waaay above and beyond the usual call of duty to make sure GT fans aren't completely left behind, which is more than can be said than for most reboot-happy franchises. Plus it's worth also saying that GT's storyline was conclusively... well, concluded when it came off the air. It's not like, say, DC hastily tying up many highly acclaimed storylines and ditching fan-favourite characters to make way for the New 52 reboot. Like Kaboom said, Toei have never actively dismissed GT, it's mainly the fandom that trash it.

I get that Super refusing to acknowledge GT (aside from some vaguely parallel elements like Super Saiyan 4/Ikari Broly or Tsufurians/Cerealians) might sting for those really invested in it, but there's not much obligation to uphold it anymore for many reasons: Toriyama's heavier involvement this time, the different timeframe, etc.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:23 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:05 am
90sDBZ wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:00 am The BoG and RF movies are already in the same boat, but I still prefer them to equivalent Super's arcs.
Perfect example. The first two arcs of Super overwrote the movies but I’d still rather watch them than the Super equivalents. To the point of if I ever decided to revisit Super I’d probably watch those two movies first and then jump to the Champa arc.
This is so much of a no-brainer for me that I don't think I ever gave it a conscious thought until now. It's just what I naturally would do to make the experience more enjoyable. Why subject myself to those boring arcs in Super when I can enjoy higher quality movies (even RoF when compared to the Super arc) within less time?
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:30 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:00 pm There's nothing "unrealistic" about that. Dragon Ball is not afraid of being known as "Marvel/DC of Japan", we even got a chapter showing Goku's origins that perfectly mirrors Superman's origins. I'm not saying Marvel and DC created the Multiverse concept, but they are indeed the ones responsible for popularizing it, and most certainly Toriyama knew that popularity and decided to implement it in his work. So what's so "unrealistic" to be further inspired/influenced by this modern and very popular idea and use the alternate dimension concept?

We don't need Toriyama to say the movies aren't part of his continuity, it was obvious. However, by saying the movies take place in another dimension is acknowledging their events happening somewhere else, is giving the movies another "layer" to be explored. Also, we're too late now to disregard this idea completely. Dragon Ball Heroes has been doing precisely that (for years now), so it's a concept already firmly established and popularized in the franchise.

Because tournaments haven't brought anything worthwhile and interesting to the table, and they don't present a story either, let alone a "good" one. They start and they finish exactly where it started, incapable of leading to somewhere, and we got two of those in a row. Not to mention that Universe 7 is the one that's gonna win, I wonder why... Tournaments are just a waste of everybody's time with endless fights and barely something to keep it interesting.
In Super, Toriyama has introduced not one but two distinct avenues for multiverse/alternate timeline shenanigans -- the Sekai of 12 Universes and the 6 Time Ring timelines -- but neither of them hint towards any kind of cross pollination with the movieverse or whatever you're getting at here. It is unrealistic to expect Dragon Ball Super to lean into that when neither Toriyama or Toyotaro have shown any inclination for that sort of thing. You've said yourself that Heroes already deals with alternate dimension stuff at length, so why does Super have to as well? Isn't it better for them to keep in their lanes? As I said, taking some inspiration from non-canon not-currently-acknowledged-continuity stuff like the Broly trilogy is a whole different beast to what you're implying with characters from the movies literally hopping over to the Super universe.

As clear as it seems to us now, it wasn't obvious to everyone that the movies weren't part of the main continuity back in the olden days, it was always a hotly debated topic, so Toriyama saying that really was just him being tactful to spare Toei and the fans' feelings. Besides, a "different dimension" can have many meanings beyond an in-universe context. In any case, never does he imply he's going to use those continuities himself.

I thought both of Super's tournament arcs were quality but that's just my opinion. Great character interactions, unpredictable twists and turns, balances of fun and serious conflict. Team U7 winning eventually is always the assumed outcome no matter the arc structure, the point is to be surprising in the execution, and I'm sure no one predicted Monaka would defeat Hit the way he did, or that Android #17 of all people would be the last man standing. Love that.

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