Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:41 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:27 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:08 am At this point it is clear that Super is part of the Official Canon written by Toriyama, while GT isn't. Simply because what happens in Super clearly contradicts and overwrites what happens in GT.

For instance, if Super and GT could fit in the same continuity, why didn't Beerus and Whis take actions against Omega Shenron, who was threatening to destroy the entire Universe? Or why is Frieza in Hell with Cell when he was revived at the end of the Tournament of Power? Or why does Hell look like that in the first place, when we know each villain has their separate Hell? Why are Doctor Myuu and Gero together when every villain is locked in their own pocket Hell? Etc. etc. etc.
If you want other reasons why the two can't fit:

Pilaf does not recognize Goku in GT despite seeing him as an adult in both DB and Super
Kibito and Shin are not fused together
Goku said that he hasn't seen Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin since they defeated Buu despite seeing him earlier
Vegeta not using Shunkan Ido despite him using in the Moro saga (Baby Vegeta could have used it instead of using a space ship to have everyone move from Earth to New Planet Plant)
Goku and Vegeta not using their new forms
Gohan can transform into his mystic form, but he can't in GT
Freeza not using his golden form
Where's Moro in GT if he died and went to Hell? I doubt anyone on Earth can kill him without any god ki.
#17 in Super pretty much contradicts everything in the Super 17 saga. In the Super 17 saga, they mention that they haven't seen #17 since he was absorbed by Cell. Kuririn had to remind #17 on how he was and why he has human emotions.
Goku said that Super Yi Xing Long is the strongest person that he has ever met despite meeting Zeno.
Yep.

Super doesn't make GT non-canon just because it exists. That's not the reason. The reason is because Super clearly overwrites a lot of GT elements. For example, if Frieza and 17 were never featured in Super, I wouldn't say that those events from GT are overwritten. But now they clearly are (since Frieza doesn't use his Golden Form and the protagonists haven't seen 17 since the Cell arc).

Obviously the meta reason is that GT was made decades before Super and so they couldn't have foreseen Golden Frieza, but from the perspective of the Super writers (so Toriyama, Modern Toei, Toyotaro), it is clear that they see GT as something that can be overwritten without too many problems.

Like the old Star Wars Expanded Universe and the new Disney Star Wars.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:57 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:51 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:24 am
ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 am Not that it ultimatley matters what is or isn't canon, but where do people get the notion that there's no canon and ("official canon" is redundantly redundant) what does that even mean?
Well, as Masenko was stating earlier, there's no "sacred text" when it comes to the different Dragon Ball anime.

That was more commentary on someone acting like they were morally incapable of watching GT anymore because Super says it doesn’t happen anymore.
I understood that. I'm just saying I don't think Toei or Toriyama cares what anyone constitutes as canon, ultimately. And whether something is canon or not is the least contributing factor to my enjoyment in any fandom. Even all that considered, I wouldn't say there's a "sacred text" in Dragon Ball anime, nor would I say that diminishes any Dragon Ball anime.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by pepd » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:40 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:01 am The issue is thinking there has to be a single canon. Maybe there's a distinction between continuity and canon, I don't know but GT has its own canon and Super has its own.

Toriyama doesn't have to say what is or isn't canon because he wrote the story. It's implicit. And in case anyone is thinking it, no, you don't need some official source to explicitly state what is or isn't.

I find the whole "there is no canon" for DB silly. Of course DB has continuity. It has several in fact. Saying there's none just feels like a way to end an argument. To my mind, the better answer is to say there are several and it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things what is or isn't canon to what. All that matters is if you enjoy it. The only way it truly matters to the story is wondering what version of events the story is taking into account. For instance, the DBZ filler is in continuity with GT.

For Super and any other future DB stories, it's likely that filler is not part of it.
Agree on that what should matter to each one is that they enjoy it, and that there are several continuities that could be referred as "canon to ZMovies/GT/anime/manga/1SDBH" (even DBE or DBM) if you really want to; but there is also an specific single canon people usually implicitly refer to and think of when using just "canon" without special context or clarification, and that is "canon to Toriyama/DBmanga" (less evident with today's DB production, but still there if you take a moment to analyze it and want to see it).
I mean, sure, sadly some people take it as more that it is and it can affect their enjoyment and create some reactions, but it is what it is.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:56 pm

pepd wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:40 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:01 am The issue is thinking there has to be a single canon. Maybe there's a distinction between continuity and canon, I don't know but GT has its own canon and Super has its own.

Toriyama doesn't have to say what is or isn't canon because he wrote the story. It's implicit. And in case anyone is thinking it, no, you don't need some official source to explicitly state what is or isn't.

I find the whole "there is no canon" for DB silly. Of course DB has continuity. It has several in fact. Saying there's none just feels like a way to end an argument. To my mind, the better answer is to say there are several and it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things what is or isn't canon to what. All that matters is if you enjoy it. The only way it truly matters to the story is wondering what version of events the story is taking into account. For instance, the DBZ filler is in continuity with GT.

For Super and any other future DB stories, it's likely that filler is not part of it.
Agree on that what should matter to each one is that they enjoy it, and that there are several continuities that could be referred as "canon to ZMovies/GT/anime/manga/1SDBH" (even DBE or DBM) if you really want to; but there is also an specific single canon people usually implicitly refer to and think of when using just "canon" without special context or clarification, and that is "canon to Toriyama/DBmanga" (less evident with today's DB production, but still there if you take a moment to analyze it and want to see it).
I mean, sure, sadly some people take it as more that it is and it can affect their enjoyment and create some reactions, but it is what it is.
I just feel like there's no difference between saying there's multiple canons and there's none. It all still amounts to the same thing in the end. But again, the whole purpose of canon is immersion, so if it helps fans enjoy the story more by utilizing it, more power to them. Just so long as they don't let it diminish their enjoyment of something they perceive as non-canon.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:47 pm

Again with this. Saying there's something or mulitple somethings is inherently different than saying there's nothing.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:59 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:47 pm Again with this. Saying there's something or mulitple somethings is inherently different than saying there's nothing.
My point is it doesn't really matter if it's meant differently or not, it still leads to the same result with how people choose to look at everything. Multiverse E+Z+Infinity or saying there's no singular canon; honestly who cares? It's not really worth arguing about.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:02 pm

One thing I am curious to see is how Super Hero will affect these sort of discussions. It's still pre-EoZ, but I'm not sure if it'll directly contradict on reinforce anything within GT. Sort of gearing this back toward the OP, as this "revival"-era powers forward, things will get a lot more interesting if they go beyond EoZ. And if that does happen, my feelings will likely change one way or another about this revival-era.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:18 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:11 pmThere is not going to be any Crisis on Infinite Dragon Ball Earth storyline’s. The alternate dimension stuff is just to let fans to not fret over things not fitting together in a single continuity. Movieverse!Goku is not going to team up with Manga!Goku and tv!Goku
There should be. It would be great and far more interesting that what we've been getting.

And yeah, but I'm willing to bet that they won't team up as long as Toriyama is still involved. So hopefully in a near future that changes.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:13 pmThis is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but this is a really odd take when it comes to Dragon Ball.
You must be referring to Dragon Ball, as it had three tournaments. Yes, it had three tournaments, but it also had three sagas with a story. It still isn't the ideal, but it's better that than Dragon Ball Super and its three original sagas, and out of those three, two are tournaments, one with a plot.

Also, we're not in the 80s anymore. Things have to change/evolve no matter what. You can have your battles without wasting time with tournaments.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:30 pmYou've said yourself that Heroes already deals with alternate dimension stuff at length, so why does Super have to as well? Isn't it better for them to keep in their lanes?
Firstly, because Dragon Ball Heroes is a videogame, and as such, everything is very limited to how they deal with the subject. I'd prefer to watch in detail everything that's going on, rather than just read dialogues with still characters. There's the anime, yes, but it's very short and so not much that can be done. Secondly, because we should be way past this old formula that Dragon Ball Super still uses, when it could be exploring other, more interesting ideas.

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:30 pmAs I said, taking some inspiration from non-canon not-currently-acknowledged-continuity stuff like the Broly trilogy is a whole different beast to what you're implying with characters from the movies literally hopping over to the Super universe.
Not really different because what Toriyama did presents another problem. Toriyama's Broly is not different from Z Broly. So they could've just pulled Z Broly from his dimension. And even if Toriyama's Broly gets to develop himself, there's the risk of him being a completely different character than Z Broly. And so, it could have been a new character altogether.

So you see, coming up with a character based on an old one is not the way to go at all. If you keep him mostly the same as the original, you could have just used the original instead. If you develop the new one and they become so different from the original, you'd be better off coming up with a new character altogether.

In other words, Toriyama's Broly is a pointless character.
ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 amwhere do people get the notion that there's no canon
From the fact that neither Akira Toriyama nor Shueisha have said anything about it, ever.
ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 amwhat does that even mean?
It means people can consider whatever they want as the main continuity and no one gets to tell they are wrong, because no official canon dictates so.

If people want Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Online as the true sequel of the manga, they are rightfully entitled as such. No official word will dispute that and say they are wrong.

Dragon Ball Super itself has three continuities: the movies, the anime and the manga. No canon states which one of those is the correct one. So people are rightfully entitled to choose one and follow it as the definitive continuity.
90sDBZ wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:02 am If canon=continuity then saying there is no canon is basically saying there is no story.
Yeah, but the thing is, and this might come as a shocking news: "Canonicity" is not a synonym for "continuity". These words are not the same, they don't mean the same thing.

I highly recommend a dictionary and a deep research on the matter for everyone who still don't know that.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:27 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:18 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:13 pmThis is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but this is a really odd take when it comes to Dragon Ball.
You must be referring to Dragon Ball, as it had three tournaments. Yes, it had three tournaments, but it also had three sagas with a story. It still isn't the ideal, but it's better that than Dragon Ball Super and its three original sagas, and out of those three, two are tournaments, one with a plot.

Also, we're not in the 80s anymore. Things have to change/evolve no matter what. You can have your battles without wasting time with tournaments.
ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 amwhere do people get the notion that there's no canon
From the fact that neither Akira Toriyama nor Shueisha have said anything about it, ever.
ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 amwhat does that even mean?
It means people can consider whatever they want as the main continuity and no one gets to tell they are wrong, because no official canon dictates so.

If people want Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Online as the true sequel of the manga, they are rightfully entitled as such. No official word will dispute that and say they are wrong.

Dragon Ball Super itself has three continuities: the movies, the anime and the manga. No canon states which one of those is the correct one. So people are rightfully entitled to choose one and follow it as the definitive continuity.
90sDBZ wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:02 am If canon=continuity then saying there is no canon is basically saying there is no story.
Yeah, but the thing is, and this might come as a shocking news: "Canonicity" is not a synonym for "continuity". These words are not the same, they don't mean the same thing.

I highly recommend a dictionary and a deep research on the matter for everyone who still don't know that.
Mainly Dragon Ball, yes, although personally I did enjoy the tournaments in Super. I think that things can always move forward, but I don't see how tournaments are the thing of the past or how they =/= plot progression. Everything you said regarding canon, I'm 1000% in agreement with and evidence with Toei/Toriyama's attitude (they don't care, never have, never will) backs it up; you just elaborated better what I was trying to say. I have nothing else to add there, so I'm done with that topic here, effing finally. :lol: :crazy:
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:37 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:05 am
Kaboom wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:23 am It's more the fandom that tries to use Super to pretend GT no longer matters or exists, rather than the franchise creators. Toei et al clearly have no qualms about acknowledging GT or making use of its elements... just look how prominent of a role Super Saiyan 4 still has in Heroes, even being given a fancy new power-up of its own.
They can still make merchadise for characters from something that is not popular. The PS2 era of Mortal Kombat and Crash Bandicoot still have fan favorite characters, but the stories from those games are ignored in the newer games. For example, Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance-Armageddon never happen in the new timeline. Crash Bandicoot 4 ignores the post-PS1 games as if they never happen. GT still exist as its own thing, but it does not exist in the Super timeline. Even if Super goes beyond DBZ, they can still make GT stuff that is not linked into super. Heroes already considers SSj4 Goku as a different character from Goku from DBS.
The NRS MK games don't actually ignore the PS2 games, it just made a new timeline like Trunks did in DBZ.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by BWri » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:45 pm

Kid Buu wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:37 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:05 am
Kaboom wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:23 am It's more the fandom that tries to use Super to pretend GT no longer matters or exists, rather than the franchise creators. Toei et al clearly have no qualms about acknowledging GT or making use of its elements... just look how prominent of a role Super Saiyan 4 still has in Heroes, even being given a fancy new power-up of its own.
They can still make merchadise for characters from something that is not popular. The PS2 era of Mortal Kombat and Crash Bandicoot still have fan favorite characters, but the stories from those games are ignored in the newer games. For example, Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance-Armageddon never happen in the new timeline. Crash Bandicoot 4 ignores the post-PS1 games as if they never happen. GT still exist as its own thing, but it does not exist in the Super timeline. Even if Super goes beyond DBZ, they can still make GT stuff that is not linked into super. Heroes already considers SSj4 Goku as a different character from Goku from DBS.
The NRS MK games don't actually ignore the PS2 games, it just made a new timeline like Trunks did in DBZ.
Yeah, basically everything in MK is canon aside from some of the spinoff games (Shaolin Monks).
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:07 pm

Explicit declaration of what is or isn't canon isn't a requirement. Sherlock Holmes has a canon and it wasn't stated by Doyle.
Dragon Ball Super itself has three continuities
So does it or doesn't it have any canon? Make up your mind.
Yeah, but the thing is, and this might come as a shocking news: "Canonicity" is not a synonym for "continuity". These words are not the same, they don't mean the same thing.

I highly recommend a dictionary and a deep research on the matter for everyone who still don't know that.
If you are going to act exasperated by my ignorance of the distinction, how about you just give us the distinction.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:22 pm

Afaik canon just means official. Literally anything release by Shueisha/Bandai/Shonen Jump/Toei is “canon” as opposed to say fan fiction or a Doujinshi.


But canon has always been accepted colloquialism for “part of the main story” if I say “The 10th anniversary Dragon Ball film: The way of the Strongest” is a non-canon retelling of the Son Goku/Red Ribbon arcs everyone knows I mean “It’s an alternative retelling that exist outside the main timeline” and knows that I’m not trying to claim that it isn’t an official work made by one of the IP holders.


Trying to make a distinction between canon and main continuity is just splitting hairs.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:54 pm

I jokingly suggested not all that long ago that the upcoming should be some wacky multiverse story where all the past Toei movie villains try to destroy all of existence or some nonsense like that.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:46 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:54 pm I jokingly suggested not all that long ago that the upcoming should be some wacky multiverse story where all the past Toei movie villains try to destroy all of existence or some nonsense like that.
Yes, but actually that's a good idea. I think it would work even better as a large, expansive tv saga rather than a movie. That way they can take their time covering each battle, rotating in and out of each story thread while traveling across dimensions and the like. Some episode plots can be multi-parts and other eps can be self-contained.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:35 am

Could be just my experience but I think the phrase "There is no canon" was coined here in order to get people to stop racking their brains on how the movies were supposed to fit in the main story, which was a huge discussion topic pre revival era.
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 90sDBZ » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:34 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:18 pm
90sDBZ wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:02 am If canon=continuity then saying there is no canon is basically saying there is no story.
Yeah, but the thing is, and this might come as a shocking news: "Canonicity" is not a synonym for "continuity". These words are not the same, they don't mean the same thing.

I highly recommend a dictionary and a deep research on the matter for everyone who still don't know that.
I know they're not the same thing, that was the point I was trying to make. Some people on here act like they are the same.

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:40 pm

Okay so we've established that they don't mean the same thing. What do they mean?
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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by 90sDBZ » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:17 pm

Canon is something clearly and strictly stated by the creator/creators/rightsholders. If they say something is non-canon then it's non-canon.

Continuity is something that speaks for itself, is usually self-evident when following a story, and shouldn't require an outside statement. It's simply one event leading to another.

So because neither Toriyama or Toei have ever actually used the word "Canon" or "Non-Canon", you could rightfully say DB has no Canon.

But some seem to use the phrase "There is no Canon" to discourage others from thinking about continuity. It's only natural to want to make heads or tails of continuity in a story. I guarantee we all thought about where the movies might fit when we first watched them. It's only natural for us obsessive fans to do this.

Like when someone ponders over how little sense the Garlic Jr saga makes, and someone else says "Who cares? There is no canon. Anything goes", it's essentially saying that basic storytelling logic doesn't matter. To be clear I'm not saying that stuff like the Garlic Jr saga or the movies are bad because they don't fit. I actually like the movies a lot. I'm saying fans have every right to try and make sense of this stuff in whatever way they can. For many of us the idea of imagining how events unfolded leading up to Movie 12 is fun and fascinating. It's clear that things happened differently, so imagining the specifics is fun, and doesn't need to be instantly shut down with "There is no canon, don't bother thinking about it".

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Re: Is anyone annoyed that the revival happened?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:43 pm

So they say the same thing but one is explicit? That's the whole distinction?

If that's the case, I don't think that's all that important and it's also historically untrue. Canon, outside of the Bible, originated as a way to delineate Sherlock Holmes stories written by Doyle and those not but still had his characters. He didn't use the term and I don't think he would ever care. Ultimately it boils down to continuity.

We don't need to read that the Star Wars novels didn't occur within the continuity of the sequel trilogy. We can tell by watching the films.
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