Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by 90sDBZ » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:53 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:35 pm I think Masenko is pointing out that The Grand Elder's power up didn't lead to them defeating anyone. It helped them survive. That's not small feat, but it didn't get them a W unlike Goku who was able to kill Piccolo.

Dende had those powers brought out. They were always there, just dormant.
If Gohan and Krillin had died against the Ginyu Force then Goku likely wouldn't have got the W against Frieza, so their powerup was equally important.
WittyUsername wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:14 pm The water is even more convenient in the anime, where it’s apparently able to serve as some kind of holy purifier that can undo brainwashing.
Isn't that different water altogether though? Logically the water Goku drank would have killed everyone on earth.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:09 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:32 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:14 pm The water is even more convenient in the anime, where it’s apparently able to serve as some kind of holy purifier that can undo brainwashing.
But the discussion is about the convenience of Goku getting the water to solve his problems. In the manga it’s given to him in the anime he has to find it and is tested by the darkness
My point was more that both Toriyama and Toei seemed to use the Ultra Divine Water as a convenient solution to the character’s problems. I actually would agree that the way the water is used in the OG anime is superior to how it’s used in the manga, but it’s weird that Toei later decided to essentially make it holy water.
90sDBZ wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:53 pm Isn't that different water altogether though? Logically the water Goku drank would have killed everyone on earth.
Pretty sure it’s the same water.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:12 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:53 pm
If Gohan and Krillin had died against the Ginyu Force then Goku likely wouldn't have got the W against Frieza, so their powerup was equally important.
Not really no. Toriyama could have just wrote Gohan and Kuririn at the brink of death when Goku shows up without giving them powers up. The Grand Elder’s power ups only serve to provide the two (and the audience) with a false sense of security. “Oh now we’re stronger we might do better against Freeza’s men oh no actually we didn’t.”


Same thing with Dende’s healing abilities. Toriyama didn’t have to give him healing powers. It accomplished 3 things 1. It allowed Toriyama to get Freeza as brutal as he wanted against the characters without having to kill them off 2. It tied into Vegeta’s over reliance on zenaki boost that he thought he had a built in safety net that did him no favors in the end 3. It heightens the tension even more when Freeza just cold blooded murders Dende and the characters realize they’re fucked.

With Goku and the Super God Water…that’s it. Goku drinks the water Karin gives him and that’s enough to get the the upper hand on Piccolo. Toriyama backs himself in a corner and finds a cheap way out.
Isn't that different water altogether though? Logically the water Goku drank would have killed everyone on earth.
I believe you’re right. The water used to undo the Black Water Mist was Ultra Holy Water. The water Goku drank was Super God Water.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:29 pm

I might have to look back, but I was certain the water used to undo the Black Water Mist and Baby’s eggs had the same name as the water Goku drank to get stronger.

Well, in any case, the use of the water in the manga is pretty bad. I agree with that. It reeks of laziness.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:10 pm

It's all the same water. The water that Goku drinks against Piccolo, the water from Garlic Jr., and the water from Baby are all the Super(Ultra) God(Spirit)(Divine) Water, or choushinsui. Not to be confused with the Super Holy(Sacred) Water, or chouseisui, against Taopaipai.

There are errors with the subtitles in those releases which will confuse things.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:42 am

I like how the 1986 cartoon handles it. I think I'd like to focus more on Gokuu achieving greater power from spiritual development.
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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:58 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:10 pm It's all the same water. The water that Goku drinks against Piccolo, the water from Garlic Jr., and the water from Baby are all the Super(Ultra) God(Spirit)(Divine) Water, or choushinsui. Not to be confused with the Super Holy(Sacred) Water, or chouseisui, against Taopaipai.

There are errors with the subtitles in those releases which will confuse things.
How a sizable amount of the population possessed by Garlic/Baby didn’t get sick from the water is a mystery...
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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by The Accountant » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:38 am

I would have much preferred if Toriyama had made the Divine Water a more temporary power up. Maybe even a situation where one would have to train anyway to maintain the form. The fact that it is a power up that the supporting cast can't utilize cause they don't have that Main Character energy, itches me the wrong way. Maybe some can, we'll never know cause Toriyama swept it under-the-rug after King Piccolo was defeated.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by 90sDBZ » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:22 am

WittyUsername wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:29 pm I might have to look back, but I was certain the water used to undo the Black Water Mist and Baby’s eggs had the same name as the water Goku drank to get stronger.

Well, in any case, the use of the water in the manga is pretty bad. I agree with that. It reeks of laziness.
MyVisionity wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:10 pm It's all the same water. The water that Goku drinks against Piccolo, the water from Garlic Jr., and the water from Baby are all the Super(Ultra) God(Spirit)(Divine) Water, or choushinsui. Not to be confused with the Super Holy(Sacred) Water, or chouseisui, against Taopaipai.

There are errors with the subtitles in those releases which will confuse things.
There's no way it's the same water. I searched it up, and while choushinsui water is indeed what Goku drank, the water from the Garlic Jr and Baby arcs is actually the chouseisui water. Furthermore they have very different containers, do very different things, and are found in 2 completely different places. It's just that the names are similar.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:31 am

90sDBZ wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:22 am
WittyUsername wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:29 pm I might have to look back, but I was certain the water used to undo the Black Water Mist and Baby’s eggs had the same name as the water Goku drank to get stronger.

Well, in any case, the use of the water in the manga is pretty bad. I agree with that. It reeks of laziness.
MyVisionity wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:10 pm It's all the same water. The water that Goku drinks against Piccolo, the water from Garlic Jr., and the water from Baby are all the Super(Ultra) God(Spirit)(Divine) Water, or choushinsui. Not to be confused with the Super Holy(Sacred) Water, or chouseisui, against Taopaipai.

There are errors with the subtitles in those releases which will confuse things.
There's no way it's the same water. I searched it up, and while choushinsui water is indeed what Goku drank, the water from the Garlic Jr and Baby arcs is actually the chouseisui water. Furthermore they have very different containers, do very different things, and are found in 2 completely different places. It's just that the names are similar.
The chouseisui is literally just tap water. It wouldn’t make sense for that to be the water used to undo the brainwashing.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:21 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:31 am
The chouseisui is literally just tap water. It wouldn’t make sense for that to be the water used to undo the brainwashing.
Well, that's kinda the thing, Karin's chouseisui doesn't really exist as you say, it is just tap water. From my understanding, Kami has a different stash of the actual chouseisui according to the anime-exclusive arcs, which has the reverse-brainwashing properties we see in Z and GT.

So, and again anyone correct me if I'm wrong, there's Karin's chouseisui (tap water placebo), Karin's choushinsui (glorified rat poison with the potential-drawing property) then finally Kami's chouseisui (brainwash cure). Probably would've helped if they had given them all more distinctive names.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:22 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:21 pm So, and again anyone correct me if I'm wrong, there's Karin's chouseisui (tap water placebo), Karin's choushinsui (glorified rat poison with the potential-drawing property) then finally Kami's chouseisui (brainwash cure). Probably would've helped if they had given them all more distinctive names.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:22 am There's no way it's the same water. I searched it up, and while choushinsui water is indeed what Goku drank, the water from the Garlic Jr and Baby arcs is actually the chouseisui water. Furthermore they have very different containers, do very different things, and are found in 2 completely different places. It's just that the names are similar.
No, it's the same water, or at least has the same name. The choushinsui is both what Goku drinks in Piccolo and also what is used against Garlic's Aquamist and Baby's eggs. The chouseisui is the ordinary water from Taopaipai.

You are right about the containers and function changing, but that's likely due to Toei's filler versus Toriyama's writing. Regardless, the water has the same name.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:22 pm

Maybe it's just that drinking a concentrated amount of it at once is dangerous, but spreading it out in a mist over the whole planet is safe, since it's much less concentrated.
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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:20 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:22 pm Maybe it's just that drinking a concentrated amount of it at once is dangerous, but spreading it out in a mist over the whole planet is safe, since it's much less concentrated.
Yajirobe had a stomach upset after tasting a drop...
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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:17 am

90sDBZ wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:03 am I guess I'm the only one who likes Goku drinking the water. The fact that he nearly dies and suffers horribly makes the powerup feel earned. It's also a true test of Goku's character. He drinks it knowing full well he could die, and that nobody has ever survived it, so it's a big leap of faith moment with real suspense.
While I also think the anime handled it better by having Goku go on a spirit quest to get the holy water, I've never had a problem with the way the manga did it for this very reason. There's still a struggle on Goku's part, a struggle that involved him having to risk outright dying to obtain the power up. I've never really viewed it as an unearned power up for that reason (certainly not on the level of the Elder Kaioshin power up, which was primarily a gag anyway). The important part is that he had to risk his life by drinking the water to gain that power, the way he got the water itself never mattered to me.

In fact, I've watched the Piccolo Daimao arc in the anime and yet I forgot all about the sprit quest stuff while still remembering how the anime actually depicted society breaking down after Piccolo's decree, the latter being a change I appreciated more.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:22 pm

Goku drinking the water would have worked better in the manga if we saw him go through some kind of internal battle to overcome the poisonous effects.

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Re: Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:14 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:20 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:22 pm Maybe it's just that drinking a concentrated amount of it at once is dangerous, but spreading it out in a mist over the whole planet is safe, since it's much less concentrated.
Yajirobe had a stomach upset after tasting a drop...
Yeah but that's still way more concentrated than the amount you would get from a single jug of water being dispersed over the entire planet.
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