Goku's power up in the King Piccolo arc kind of took me out of the story...

[Marz]

I've been doing a re-read of the series and an arc that I didn't exactly remember the details of was the one with King Piccolo. I knew there was clearly a tonal shift in this saga and I was quickly excited by how things were unfolding (it's actually a different experience compared to the original DB before this). But then, getting ready to face Piccolo again, Goku drank the Choshinsui or the Ultra Divine Water and...he really got stronger. I liked how in RRA, the water didn't actually increase the user's powers and what made it for him was his training with Karin. But then, an arc later, that same plot point is used again but the opposite occurs, and idk why but that kind of took me out of the story, right around the climax. Am I the only one with this feeling? Yes, Goku suffered all night and almost died, but that was all off panel, he didn't really train to get that power.

It's similar to what happened with Granola. The way he got his powers was kind of a disappointment, but I can give it a pass because he's an antagonist (so he doesn't mind unfair or quick methods, and narratively the story expresses how this is the point and how Granola is wrong) and at this point there aren't many ways for other humans to reach the divine levels of Goku and Vegeta. But with Goku, he is the main character and this felt undeserved. I know the ''unlocked potential'' has happened other times, but even though Krillin and Gohan got much stronger through the Namekian Elder, this power up wasn't massive to the point where they overcame their opponents right away, it actually seemed like it took a while until they completely release all that power after Guru has helped them, while Goku immediately becomes able to rival and defeat a much stronger King Piccolo than the one who defeated him before. And with the God form, Goku expressed his dissatisfaction with receiving powers from others and kind of makes up for it in the end by absorbing that power for himself (and he still isn't able to defeat Beerus). It's nothing outrageous, just something that I felt disconnected me from the story for a moment, it was all really fast

[Polyphase Avatron]

Goku didn't easily defeat Piccolo though, he still needed help from Tenshinhan IIRC.

[Marz]

Goku didn't easily defeat Piccolo though, he still needed help from Tenshinhan IIRC.

Sure, but the power up was enough to immediately raise Goku to Piccolo's level despite the huge gap that existed before, and that was enough to push Piccolo to his limits (although it took a lot more effort to defeat him)

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Despite the King Piccolo saga being a top 5 arc in Dragon Ball for me, I agree with this. The actual power-up method in the manga feels underwhelming. From what I remember, the anime improves upon it a lot by having Goku and Yajirobe go on dangerous trials to retrieve the water. So it actually feels somewhat earned; and the King Piccolo arc is bridging the gap between the mortal and the divine, so I don't mind Goku having to resort to the water of the gods; I think it just shows the desperation of Goku at this point. The only other power-up in the original manga that feels even more underwhelming is Elder Kai unlocking Gohan's potential in the Buu saga.

That said, I love the scene where Goku detects King Piccolo's ki (and ki in general) for the first time. It's funny that a lot of things that became tropes of Z originated with the King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. sagas.

[Marz]

Despite the King Piccolo saga being a top 5 arc in Dragon Ball for me, I agree with this. The actual power-up method in the manga feels underwhelming. From what I remember, the anime improves upon it a lot by having Goku and Yajirobe go on dangerous trials to retrieve the water. So it actually feels somewhat earned; and the King Piccolo arc is bridging the gap between the mortal and the divine, so I don't mind Goku having to resort to the water of the gods; I think it just shows the desperation of Goku at this point. The only other power-up in the original manga that feels even more underwhelming is Elder Kai unlocking Gohan's potential in the Buu saga.

That said, I love the scene where Goku detects King Piccolo's ki (and ki in general) for the first time. It's funny that a lot of things that became tropes of Z originated with the King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. sagas.

I would say the King Piccolo character could benefit from Goku not drinking the water and getting instantly stronger. IIRC, Goku mentions it would take years to defeat Piccolo with just training. Maybe it shouldn't take that long, but it would be interesting if Goku was forced to train for at least 1 year while Piccolo's reign of terror took place (instead of lasting just one day). He would become an even more menacing presence and the tension would keep raising as he did evils that Goku couldn't stop (similar to how Boo slaughtered the Earthlings while Goten and Trunks trained)

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I would say the King Piccolo character could benefit from Goku not drinking the water and getting instantly stronger. IIRC, Goku mentions it would take years to defeat Piccolo with just training. Maybe it shouldn't take that long, but it would be interesting if Goku was forced to train for at least 1 year while Piccolo's reign of terror took place (instead of lasting just one day). He would become an even more menacing presence and the tension would keep raising as he did evils that Goku couldn't stop (similar to how Boo slaughtered the Earthlings while Goten and Trunks trained)

In theory that would've been cool, but I also think it would have taken away from the urgency of the arc, having Goku training for a year while the world erupted into chaos (considering this was literally right before the Room of Spirit and Time was introduced).The urgency of this arc is its strongest aspect imho. Also, the kind of world domination King Piccolo was unleashing is imho the darkest and most believable of any Dragon Ball villain, even with the small glimpse we got of it. I would love to see that extended into the anime, but it would've made Dragon Ball a very different series; I'm not sure Toriyama would fully go there.

[90sDBZ]

I guess I'm the only one who likes Goku drinking the water. The fact that he nearly dies and suffers horribly makes the powerup feel earned. It's also a true test of Goku's character. He drinks it knowing full well he could die, and that nobody has ever survived it, so it's a big leap of faith moment with real suspense.

The anime makes it feel even more dramatic, with the awesome filler of Goku and Yajirobe working through the icy labyrinth, and then facing off against "the darkness". There's that great scene were Goku meets a fake version of his friends, who try to temp him into taking the easy way out by hiding, adding to the sense that the whole thing is one big test of Goku's character. He then fights the fake Roshi, which feels appopriate as Roshi is the man he respects the most, and deep down inside he knows Roshi is dead at that time.

Up to this point we'd seen Goku train to overcome many obstacles. The Ultra Divine Water was a nice way to change things up. I like to think that Korin didn't mention it 3 years prior because the risk wasn't necessary at the time, and maybe Goku wasn't ready yet.

[PurestEvil]

I guess I'm the only one who likes Goku drinking the water. The fact that he nearly dies and suffers horribly makes the powerup feel earned. It's also a true test of Goku's character. He drinks it knowing full well he could die, and that nobody has ever survived it, so it's a big leap of faith moment with real suspense.

Isn't the super divine water supposed to work only for those with a pure heart?

[ABED]

I don't think it's a matter of being pure of heart. The issues are simply that surviving the water is a huge risk, excruciating, and even if he does survive, there's no guarantee he'll get any significant power up if any.

The problem isn't him drinking the water, but that Karin gets it off panel and it's a deus ex machina. There's no trial. I guess Toriyama felt the pain Goku endures was enough so it doesn't make it a complete cheat. But it still is this plot device that he had lying around conveniently.

[jjgp1112]

I think the nature of how it comes up is a problem, which is why I greatly prefer the way the anime handled it with the goofy vision quest. I agree with Demon Prince though - Goku needing to train for an extended period while the world is burning would be a great source of tension. You show him return into this hellscape of a Piccolo-fied world and now you really want to see hm put things to an end. Kind of similar to Zelda Ocarina of Time, where Link goes forward and now Hyrule is a ghost town controlled by Ganondorf and his minions.

[MasenkoHA]

The problem is in the manga and the manga alone where Goku is just given the Super God water handed to him by Karin. It’s nice Goku was willing to risk death to save everyone but Goku never came off as self involved to begin with and we know he’s not going to die so who cares? The solution is still gift wrapped to him.

The anime adding a labyrinth and a test of character makes it feel earned. There is a struggle we have to watch Goku overcome so it’s more satisfying when he gets his magic power up.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I think the nature of how it comes up is a problem, which is why I greatly prefer the way the anime handled it with the goofy vision quest. I agree with Demon Prince though - Goku needing to train for an extended period while the world is burning would be a great source of tension. You show him return into this hellscape of a Piccolo-fied world and now you really want to see hm put things to an end. Kind of similar to Zelda Ocarina of Time, where Link goes forward and now Hyrule is a ghost town controlled by Ganondorf and his minions.

Goku would've likely become a very Future Trunks-esque character had it gone down like this. Obviously not the tone Toriyama was going for, but now I'll always wonder about if things had happened this way lol.

[ABED]

The problem is in the manga and the manga alone where Goku is just given the Super God water handed to him by Karin. It’s nice Goku was willing to risk death to save everyone but Goku never came off as self involved to begin with and we know he’s not going to die so who cares? The solution is still gift wrapped to him.

The anime adding a labyrinth and a test of character makes it feel earned. There is a struggle we have to watch Goku overcome so it’s more satisfying when he gets his magic power up.

The part where Goku is holding onto Yajirobe while holding onto the edge by one hand as The Darkness shocks him, beats him, and tries to convince him to let go is one of my favorite moments

[90sDBZ]

I think the nature of how it comes up is a problem, which is why I greatly prefer the way the anime handled it with the goofy vision quest. I agree with Demon Prince though - Goku needing to train for an extended period while the world is burning would be a great source of tension. You show him return into this hellscape of a Piccolo-fied world and now you really want to see hm put things to an end. Kind of similar to Zelda Ocarina of Time, where Link goes forward and now Hyrule is a ghost town controlled by Ganondorf and his minions.

Goku would've likely become a very Future Trunks-esque character had it gone down like this. Obviously not the tone Toriyama was going for, but now I'll always wonder about if things had happened this way lol.

The first time I watched this arc I'd already seen Z, so I knew Goku would train with Kami at some point. At the time I thought that would be how Goku would beat King Piccolo, and was surprised when Korin mentioned the water. Perhaps the manga version is a bit half assed, but the anime handled it really well by adding so much more to it.

I just find the idea of Goku drinking poison to get stronger to be really cool. It's the ultimate leap of faith, and requires him to be both brave and pure. And he still suffers a great deal, so it's a real trial by fire. And the part were it cuts to Great Ape Goku is a great way to symbolize his unlocked potential. It's so much better than Guru putting his hand on someone's head and instantly making them stronger at no risk or cost.

[MasenkoHA]

It's so much better than Guru putting his hand on someone's head and instantly making them stronger at no risk or cost.

The Grand Elder’s power ups aren’t used a shortcut to resolve any issues.

[90sDBZ]

It's so much better than Guru putting his hand on someone's head and instantly making them stronger at no risk or cost.

The Grand Elder’s power ups aren’t used a shortcut to resolve any issues.

Didn't Dende gain his healing powers from Guru? Also Gohan and Krillin would have died against the Ginyu Force pretty much instantly without it.

[MasenkoHA]

It's so much better than Guru putting his hand on someone's head and instantly making them stronger at no risk or cost.

The Grand Elder’s power ups aren’t used a shortcut to resolve any issues.

Didn't Dende gain his healing powers from Guru? Also Gohan and Krillin would have died against the Ginyu Force pretty much instantly without it.

And none of those things save the day and resolve the conflict . Goku’s magic water power up allows him to defeat Piccolo Daimao. Gohan and Kuririn don’t do shit against the Ginyu Force and Dende’s healing only keeps them alive long enough until Goku shows up and Dende is offed before he can be of any use to Goku in his fight against Freeza

[ABED]

I think Masenko is pointing out that The Grand Elder's power up didn't lead to them defeating anyone. It helped them survive. That's not small feat, but it didn't get them a W unlike Goku who was able to kill Piccolo.

Dende had those powers brought out. They were always there, just dormant.

[WittyUsername]

The water is even more convenient in the anime, where it’s apparently able to serve as some kind of holy purifier that can undo brainwashing.

[MasenkoHA]

The water is even more convenient in the anime, where it’s apparently able to serve as some kind of holy purifier that can undo brainwashing.

But the discussion is about the convenience of Goku getting the water to solve his problems. In the manga it’s given to him in the anime he has to find it and is tested by the darkness