Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:16 am

NitroEX wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:41 am
90sDBZ wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:57 pm And there's also the approach Kenji Yamamoto took with his plagiarized Budokai soundtrack. It ripped off a lot of heavy metal songs, often going for a similar hardcore vibe to Funimation's replacement scores.
I've never gotten the vibe that the Budokai soundtracks were influenced by Faulconer's style. Aside from some songs being in the rock genre (which, as others mentioned, wasn't new for DB games or even unusual for the fighting game genre) Faulconer's music mostly sounded like lower quality midi instruments played through a keyboard, it sounded cheap compared to Yamamoto's compositions.

From what I understand about Budokai music, Yamamoto got to record musicians from both Tokyo and Los Angeles for those games. He even hired a renowned guitarist like Steve Lukather which speaks to the budget of the production. They spared no expense which is why the music sounded so good and remains well regarded. Comparatively, Faulconer had to resort to using college students to do music for him. I don't think anyone working with Yamamoto would have cared much less admired the American series music because it would just be viewed as music made for children whereas the games had an older Japanese audience in mind. There was no Faulconer fanfare at the time the games were being produced either, that's all wishful thinking of those who are nostalgic for the Faulconer music.
I was about to say I’m pretty sure VegettoEX or someone gave an antecedent of Bruce Faulconer having a table at an anime con around 2002 and literally nobody stopped by. The giant boner for Faulconer’s music didn’t happen until like….2007?

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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:39 am

Yeah, it's a fair point and a bit of revisionist history.

Completely ignoring the zero-Faulconer-appreciation FUNimation would have been receiving going into 2002 (the fans who liked it generally weren't old enough to go online and express this; I've told that Otakon story several hundred times, but happy to explain if anyone needs it)...

... but, again, the first Budokai game was being developed in Japan for Japanese audience and zero mind given to any international audience. It was heavily delayed and had its development scrapped. It should have come out sooner than it did. We have all of this on record from its production and supervisory team in multiple sources.

What this means is that there's effectively no way FUNimation's random work on the series could have affected its art direction, music included. It was literally being worked on in a complete bubble even within its home country, separate from the appropriate supervisory staff at Shueisha.

Yamamoto was just doing the Yamamoto thing that Yamamoto always did. What NitroEX mentioned about the western studio musicians is absolutely accurate, and yet that still has no relevance to or impact from what Faulconer Productions was doing -- it's just more Yamamoto direction.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:41 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:44 am I’d argue there was no revival in the anglosphere because of Dragon Ball’s late to the party arrival in English speaking territories and FUNimation not allowing it to die (and Toei giving them new material just as they’re about to run out) the UUE and “Remastered” release filled the gap between Funimation “finishing Dragon Ball” and Kai’s release. Like Kai starting airing in Japan just right before FUNimation finished releasing those Orange Bricks . And despite how shitty they were they did sell like hotcakes and for better or worse replaced the original presentation of English Dragon Ball Z.
If you're a wired-in hardcore fan, yeah.

But there was nothing actually new between GT's end in 2005 and Kai's beginning in 2010. Even if you count the "uncut" redub of the first two seasons of Z (which finished broadcast in 2006), there was a good four years off for most people.
Granted, Kai was a rehash of Z, but it was a new production from Japan, whereas everything between GT and it had been re-releases of the same episodes.

Still, I will grant you that with such a short gap between Ultimate Uncut and Kai, perhaps in the west, you could say the revival didn't really kick off until BoG, since that was the first actually new story since GT in 2005.
But really, I guess it's always been such a mess in the west, I find it easier to just stick to Japan where there's a clear-cut ending in 1997 and a clear-cut beginning of new material in 2008.
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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

Post by 90sDBZ » Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:59 pm

NitroEX wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:41 am I've never gotten the vibe that the Budokai soundtracks were influenced by Faulconer's style. Aside from some songs being in the rock genre (which, as others mentioned, wasn't new for DB games or even unusual for the fighting game genre) Faulconer's music mostly sounded like lower quality midi instruments played through a keyboard, it sounded cheap compared to Yamamoto's compositions.

From what I understand about Budokai music, Yamamoto got to record musicians from both Tokyo and Los Angeles for those games. He even hired a renowned guitarist like Steve Lukather which speaks to the budget of the production. They spared no expense which is why the music sounded so good and remains well regarded. Comparatively, Faulconer had to resort to using college students to do music for him. I don't think anyone working with Yamamoto would have cared much less admired the American series music because it would just be viewed as music made for children whereas the games had an older Japanese audience in mind. There was no Faulconer fanfare at the time the games were being produced either, that's all wishful thinking of those who are nostalgic for the Faulconer music.
Fair enough. I guess I was mistaken about Yamamoto being influenced by the dub score.

Although to me some the Budokai OST still sounds kind of Team Faulconer-esque, even if it is just coincidence.

This track has a similar vibe to some of Faulconer's Vegeta themes;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF0ly5oTYFU
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:16 am I was about to say I’m pretty sure VegettoEX or someone gave an antecedent of Bruce Faulconer having a table at an anime con around 2002 and literally nobody stopped by. The giant boner for Faulconer’s music didn’t happen until like….2007?
Yeah I didn't get internet access until 2004, and even then it was hard to find people who liked the score, or even the dub in general. Funimation's target audience who actually watched the dub on Toonami were too young to be expressing their opinions online at the time. By all accounts it seems Funimation themselves were oblivious to the love that existed for the score. It makes me wonder if they'd have replaced Team Faulconer with Mark Menza if they'd have known.

I know they did have that big legal dispute, similar to the situation with Dale Kelly. Perhaps they'd have seen their way to working things out, or perhaps not. The irony is that most dub fans resent Menza replacing Team Faulconer.

I started to notice a lot more love for Team Faulconer around the time Youtube was becoming more popular, so around 2007 sounds right.

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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:18 pm

There were fans of Faulconer who were old enough to be online in 2002-2006. They were probably just in smaller numbers compared to later on.

I remember Faulconer's website selling the cds and seeing them in stores, so I'm guessing there was at least some kind of demand. No idea how well they sold.

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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:06 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:59 pm Fair enough. I guess I was mistaken about Yamamoto being influenced by the dub score.

Although to me some the Budokai OST still sounds kind of Team Faulconer-esque, even if it is just coincidence.
Rock music in general is very popular, and is something a huge number of professional musicians would have dabbled in, even Kikuchi had some electric guitars. Faulconer and Yamamoto may have had some mutual influences, which can lead to some similar approaches, although they were most certainly doing their own things.

It's more likely Sumitomo would have been influenced by Faulconer, as Kai TFC was made for the international market, although that's still speculation on anyone's part.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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Re: Which year do you consider the start of the revival?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:13 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:06 pm
It's more likely Sumitomo would have been influenced by Faulconer, as Kai TFC was made for the international market, although that's still speculation on anyone's part.
And nothing about Sumitomo’s score sounds anything like the Mike Smith and Friends score so…

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