With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main cast?

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Adamant » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:54 pm

KingVegetto wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:26 pm Well the rest of the world does not know a whole lot about black history, so they are mistaken on that front, that term definitely has it's place and I wouldn't call it idiotic or mockable, just a bit overrused, I generally don't use it myself because it sounds a little too formal to me.
If you think every single black person in existence is American, I think it might be you that doesn't know a whole lot of "black history". Or the world. Or anything in general.

When everyone thinks you're being an idiot, you might want to look into why instead of just going "well they're wrong".
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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:08 pm

Adamant wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:54 pm
KingVegetto wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:26 pm Well the rest of the world does not know a whole lot about black history, so they are mistaken on that front, that term definitely has it's place and I wouldn't call it idiotic or mockable, just a bit overrused, I generally don't use it myself because it sounds a little too formal to me.
If you think every single black person in existence is American, I think it might be you that doesn't know a whole lot of "black history". Or the world. Or anything in general.
Nobody ever suggested this. Like, at all.

As has been stated, the term absolutely has its place, despite its misuse. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with it is aside from that.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Adamant » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:38 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:08 pm
Nobody ever suggested this. Like, at all.
If you're the kind of person that refers to black Americans as "African Americans" and black non-Americans by some other term (presumably "black"), then;

a) Congratulations, you're not as stupid as most people that use that term
But
b) Why do you not use that other term to refer to black Americans?
Especially because
c) Most people are going to assume you DO call all black people "African Americans" and thus is an idiot, which is not the best first impression to give
and
d) Black Americans don't actually like being referred to by this term anyway

Why would you willingly use a term that annoys the people you're referring to and makes the people you're not referring to think you're an idiot? What the absolute hell do you have to gain by doing this?
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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:50 pm

Adamant wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:38 pm b) Why do you not use that other term to refer to black Americans?
Especially because
c) Most people are going to assume you DO call all black people "African Americans" and thus is an idiot, which is not the best first impression to give
and
d) Black Americans don't actually like being referred to by this term anyway

Why would you willingly use a term that annoys the people you're referring to and makes the people you're not referring to think you're an idiot? What the absolute hell do you have to gain by doing this?
If by "that other term", you mean "Black", then my response is that it is possible to use more than just one term for a people. It varies upon the context.

People make erroneous assumptions all the time. I can't allow myself to get too worked up about it. Especially if those assumptions are rooted in narrow-minded thinking or ignorance. There are worse things than looking like an idiot.

I'm also not going to completely stop using a term just because a random number of individuals happen to dislike it. I would take them into consideration, but ultimately you have to think for yourself and trust your own judgement. And I'm certainly not going to assume that an entire racial group is annoyed by any particular term.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:23 pm

KingVegetto wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:26 pm Very strongly disagree on both Miles and Riri, I think they both have their own distinct personalities. Miles especially showed that in the animated film and in the video game.

Also I have to disagree with the notion that there's no value in minority characters playing roles that were originally white, while it is always preferable to have original works starring minority characters, having non-white and non-straight male actors playing roles originally played by straight white men/women is a big deal to a lot of other folks out there. Hell Nick Fury was originally a white dude in the comics and few would argue that giving him a race-lift was a vast improvement for his character overall.
Was it, though? It's subjective ofc, but I'm not sure that it made a difference, either way. I don't feel Sam Jackson with an eyepatch=better character, necessarily.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Adamant » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:46 pm

Movie Fury is based on Ultimate Fury anyway, who's not only black, but has Jackson's likeness. Marvel gave Jackson first dibs on the role in exchange for the rights to use his likeness for the character.

Image

(that panel is from a 2002 comic, predating the Iron Man movie by 8 years btw)
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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm

Somehow I doubt more black people started buying marvel comics because the lesser version of Nick Fury looked like Samuel L. Jackson.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:23 pm
KingVegetto wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:26 pm Very strongly disagree on both Miles and Riri, I think they both have their own distinct personalities. Miles especially showed that in the animated film and in the video game.

Also I have to disagree with the notion that there's no value in minority characters playing roles that were originally white, while it is always preferable to have original works starring minority characters, having non-white and non-straight male actors playing roles originally played by straight white men/women is a big deal to a lot of other folks out there. Hell Nick Fury was originally a white dude in the comics and few would argue that giving him a race-lift was a vast improvement for his character overall.
Was it, though? It's subjective ofc, but I'm not sure that it made a difference, either way. I don't feel Sam Jackson with an eyepatch=better character, necessarily.

That's exactly my point, how in the Blue F's does a "race lift" make someone a better character? No offense to KingVegetto but that's absurd man. Things like this never really stick with people for too long, there's the initial "Shock Buzz" then it quickly fades a few months later because the people they try to cater to was never really interested in the first place, they'll look for a little bit but they never stay.

People invest into a character because of their unique abilities, their goals, their flaws and how they play off the supporting cast and the antagonists. All the other superficial shit isnt nearly as important, sure it doesnt hurt to mix up the skin tones a bit but ultimately the question is "Is the character fun to watch?" and if the answer is NO then all the extra stuff doesnt matter anyway.

Tommy is the most popular power ranger, even amongst Black People.
Stone Cold is the most popular wrestler of the attitude era, even amongst Black folk.
Vegeta and Gohan are the most popular DB characters among Black Folk, despite the Piccolo jokes.
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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:48 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm Somehow I doubt more black people started buying marvel comics because the lesser version of Nick Fury looked like Samuel L. Jackson.

That's exactly my point, how in the Blue F's does a "race lift" make someone a better character? No offense to KingVegetto but that's absurd man. Things like this never really stick with people for too long, there's the initial "Shock Buzz" then it quickly fades a few months later because the people they try to cater to was never really interested in the first place, they'll look for a little bit but they never stay.

People invest into a character because of their unique abilities, their goals, their flaws and how they play off the supporting cast and the antagonists. All the other superficial shit isnt nearly as important, sure it doesnt hurt to mix up the skin tones a bit but ultimately the question is "Is the character fun to watch?" and if the answer is NO then all the extra stuff doesnt matter anyway.

Tommy is the most popular power ranger, even amongst Black People.
Stone Cold is the most popular wrestler of the attitude era, even amongst Black folk.
Vegeta and Gohan are the most popular DB characters among Black Folk, despite the Piccolo jokes.
Right, I'm black, but whenever I think Nick Fury, I think the original version from the comics. It almost adds insult to injury that the race change used the most mainstream stereotypically "black" actor in film history as its basis. Like...I like Sam Jackson, don't get me wrong, but he's the type of actor some white people like to announce they like to show that they like black people. Black people generally roll their eyes at this sort of thing. If you just had to make him black, I think Denzel would have been a better choice.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:20 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm Somehow I doubt more black people started buying marvel comics because the lesser version of Nick Fury looked like Samuel L. Jackson.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what happened, because he looked like Sam Jackson. Especially among children.

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm People invest into a character because of their unique abilities, their goals, their flaws and how they play off the supporting cast and the antagonists. All the other superficial shit isnt nearly as important, sure it doesnt hurt to mix up the skin tones a bit but ultimately the question is "Is the character fun to watch?" and if the answer is NO then all the extra stuff doesnt matter anyway.
Black folks are drawn to other Black folks. People like seeing themselves on the screen. Sure, investing in characters has to be about more than just race, but race is still very important in getting people's attention.

It has to be done right. I agree that it can't be a superficial change. If you're gonna do a "race-lift", let's see some Black characters who not only look Black, but talk, walk, think, and act Black. Take advantage of the Blackness and make the most out of it.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:24 am

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:20 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm Somehow I doubt more black people started buying marvel comics because the lesser version of Nick Fury looked like Samuel L. Jackson.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what happened, because he looked like Sam Jackson. Especially among children.

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm People invest into a character because of their unique abilities, their goals, their flaws and how they play off the supporting cast and the antagonists. All the other superficial shit isnt nearly as important, sure it doesnt hurt to mix up the skin tones a bit but ultimately the question is "Is the character fun to watch?" and if the answer is NO then all the extra stuff doesnt matter anyway.
Black folks are drawn to other Black folks. People like seeing themselves on the screen. Sure, investing in characters has to be about more than just race, but race is still very important in getting people's attention.

It has to be done right. I agree that it can't be a superficial change. If you're gonna do a "race-lift", let's see some Black characters who not only look Black, but talk, walk, think, and act Black. Take advantage of the Blackness and make the most out of it.
If you want to portray Black characters, bring us actual Black characters without doing race-lifts. And what do you mean by talk, walk, think, and act Black? Is there one way Black people are supposed to act or be portrayed?
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:54 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:24 am If you want to portray Black characters, bring us actual Black characters without doing race-lifts. And what do you mean by talk, walk, think, and act Black? Is there one way Black people are supposed to act or be portrayed?
I agree that it is better to use characters that were originally Black or to create new ones rather than changing the race of other characters.
However, I don't mind race changes for less prominent or more minor characters. It has to be handled carefully though.

What I meant is that it shouldn't just be an incidental or surface-level change. If you're going to race-swap a character, then it should be about more than just genetics. Let's see some traits and forms that are unique to Black identity, Black culture, Black psychology, and so on. Take full advantage and create something distinctive.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:43 am

While Nick Fury is a rare success story, though as Adamant said, one that was in the making years before Sam L. Jackson was cast in the MCU movies, it seems that the majority of publicity stunt racelifts in pop culture at the moment are getting criticised by the very people they're trying to represent. It's a classic case of trying to appear progressive without actually listening. Like with the Ta-Nehisi Coates Superman script, roughly 90% of complaints against it came from black people... including the bloody prospective lead himself, Michael B. Jordan! Jordan's deep enough into the nerd lore that he managed to get a Val-Zod miniseries greenlit instead. Studios need to understand that the real demand is for films and shows about canonically black characters. The massive popularity of Miles Morales should be undeniable proof of that.

A film addressing the occasionally spotty past of Superman lore (as late as 1971, they were printing about Vathlo Island on Krypton, home of the "highly advanced black race" :| ) could be super intriguing, or truly going the distance with portraying a version of Clark Kent who struggles against the additional prejudice of being a black guy in America. At the very least, I think Coates could've done that well. It's more a case that everyone is burned out by other performative racelifts that have zero bearing on the characters' portrayals which immediately rubbed people the wrong way, so a black Kal-El movie was screwed right out of the gate.

I think a major issue is the idea that colourblind casting, a theatrical tradition, can be translated exactly over to cinema when they are two very different mediums with different expectations. On stage, it's awesome that anyone can play anyone, you can have an 80-year-old white Hamlet or an 18-year-old black Macbeth, but theatre by nature relies on imagination and immersion in the story which allows for massive suspension of disbelief. With film, there's always an expectation of verisimilitude, i.e. a sense of realism and internal consistency, even with fantasy stories. After all, a stage performance is a fleeting experience, a film performance lasts forever. If all the Hobbits were played by the same actors from the LOTR movies except Merry who's now played by Shaquille O'Neal or some shit, that's gonna take you right the fuck out of the story. This extends to period dramas based on actual history, such as the recent Anne Boleyn TV drama starring Jodie Turner-Smith as Boleyn, which was a blatant shit-stirring publicity stunt for what ended up being a mediocre show. If the artists behind it really want to racelift a character or even a real historical figure, I support their right to that freedom of expression 100%, but the execution can still be criticised, especially when it's not done with any legitimate artistic purpose.

The Personal History of David Copperfield is a great film that actually handles colourblind casting really well by emphasising the theatrical nature of the story, but even in that, there are some distracting examples: James Steerforth played by curly-haired white guy Aneurin Barnard, then his mother Mrs. Steerforth played by very black Nikki Amuka-Bird, who's also supposed to be a Victorian noblewoman. She turns a great performance honestly, but the idea that she's meant to be related to James is... unconvincing, to say the least.

IDK how I can tie Dragon Ball back into this rant but uhhh yeah, another major minority character (by Japanese standards) besides Uub would be pretty lit I guess.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Adamant » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:40 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:43 am While Nick Fury is a rare success story, though as Adamant said, one that was in the making years before Sam L. Jackson was cast in the MCU movies, it seems that the majority of publicity stunt racelifts in pop culture at the moment are getting criticised by the very people they're trying to represent.
I don't think Jackson as Fury really counts since Marvel fans were used to a black Fury that looked like Jackson from the Ultimate comics, and it's not like the movies were 100% based on the regular 616 Marvel universe to begin with. Ultimate Fury was a relatively popular character at the time Jackson was cast in the Fury role, so of course people wouldn't have issues with it.
A better example would be Michael Clarke Duncan playing Kingpin in the Daredevil movie, which people were in general fine with since Kingpin's body type makes him a pretty difficult character to cast. Duncan may not have had the same skin color as the comic book character, but he still LOOKED the part and played the role convincingly.
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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:45 am

Adamant wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:40 am I don't think Jackson as Fury really counts since Marvel fans were used to a black Fury that looked like Jackson from the Ultimate comics, and it's not like the movies were 100% based on the regular 616 Marvel universe to begin with. Ultimate Fury was a relatively popular character at the time Jackson was cast in the Fury role, so of course people wouldn't have issues with it.
A better example would be Michael Clarke Duncan playing Kingpin in the Daredevil movie, which people were in general fine with since Kingpin's body type makes him a pretty difficult character to cast. Duncan may not have had the same skin color as the comic book character, but he still LOOKED the part and played the role convincingly.
Yeah-nah, I agree with all that, Fury's a questionable example cause of the precedent set with the Earth-1610 version.

More of a sex-lift but as another great example, casting Dame Judi Dench as M from the Brosnan era onwards was a godlike decision. Making Bond's boss a woman was a great shake-up of the series' usual gender dynamics. She's kinda like Ultimate Fury in a way because they introduced her as Robert Brown's successor, but for the Craig era continuity reboot she's accepted as the default original M.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by KingVegetto » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:12 am

Adamant wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:54 pm
KingVegetto wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:26 pm Well the rest of the world does not know a whole lot about black history, so they are mistaken on that front, that term definitely has it's place and I wouldn't call it idiotic or mockable, just a bit overrused, I generally don't use it myself because it sounds a little too formal to me.
If you think every single black person in existence is American, I think it might be you that doesn't know a whole lot of "black history". Or the world. Or anything in general.

When everyone thinks you're being an idiot, you might want to look into why instead of just going "well they're wrong".
Uh did I say anything remotely like that? No :? I certainly know a lot more about black history then many people overseas i've seen trying to comment on it on social media, i've personally witnessed a disturbing amount of foreigners questioning whether or not structural racism really exists and saying that they personally think BLM comes off as "scary" and whatnot.

So you think anyone using the term African-American is being an idiot? OK that's certainly a take if i've ever heard one :shock: , though if you seriously believe something that completely insane, it's you that needs to look inward and not me. The disdain for that term certainly isn't nearly as universal as you make it out to be, now i'm starting to question how much you actually know about black history with a take like that.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:25 pm Somehow I doubt more black people started buying marvel comics because the lesser version of Nick Fury looked like Samuel L. Jackson.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:23 pm
KingVegetto wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:26 pm Very strongly disagree on both Miles and Riri, I think they both have their own distinct personalities. Miles especially showed that in the animated film and in the video game.

Also I have to disagree with the notion that there's no value in minority characters playing roles that were originally white, while it is always preferable to have original works starring minority characters, having non-white and non-straight male actors playing roles originally played by straight white men/women is a big deal to a lot of other folks out there. Hell Nick Fury was originally a white dude in the comics and few would argue that giving him a race-lift was a vast improvement for his character overall.
Was it, though? It's subjective ofc, but I'm not sure that it made a difference, either way. I don't feel Sam Jackson with an eyepatch=better character, necessarily.

That's exactly my point, how in the Blue F's does a "race lift" make someone a better character? No offense to KingVegetto but that's absurd man. Things like this never really stick with people for too long, there's the initial "Shock Buzz" then it quickly fades a few months later because the people they try to cater to was never really interested in the first place, they'll look for a little bit but they never stay.

People invest into a character because of their unique abilities, their goals, their flaws and how they play off the supporting cast and the antagonists. All the other superficial shit isnt nearly as important, sure it doesnt hurt to mix up the skin tones a bit but ultimately the question is "Is the character fun to watch?" and if the answer is NO then all the extra stuff doesnt matter anyway.

Tommy is the most popular power ranger, even amongst Black People.
Stone Cold is the most popular wrestler of the attitude era, even amongst Black folk.
Vegeta and Gohan are the most popular DB characters among Black Folk, despite the Piccolo jokes.
I don't see it as absurd in the least, straight white males are a dime-a-dozen in fictional media, so yes I think race-lifting does automatically make a character more interesting and it's not just me that thinks that. Also Sam Jackson isn't the most stereo-typically black actor I think of, for me that would be a black comedic actor like Chris Rock. I think Jackson was the perfect choice for the role personally, I like Denzel but I just can't picture him as Fury, he definitely more in down-to-earth fare like the Equalizer films.
Last edited by KingVegetto on Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by KingVegetto » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:17 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:43 am While Nick Fury is a rare success story, though as Adamant said, one that was in the making years before Sam L. Jackson was cast in the MCU movies, it seems that the majority of publicity stunt racelifts in pop culture at the moment are getting criticised by the very people they're trying to represent. It's a classic case of trying to appear progressive without actually listening. Like with the Ta-Nehisi Coates Superman script, roughly 90% of complaints against it came from black people... including the bloody prospective lead himself, Michael B. Jordan! Jordan's deep enough into the nerd lore that he managed to get a Val-Zod miniseries greenlit instead. Studios need to understand that the real demand is for films and shows about canonically black characters. The massive popularity of Miles Morales should be undeniable proof of that.

A film addressing the occasionally spotty past of Superman lore (as late as 1971, they were printing about Vathlo Island on Krypton, home of the "highly advanced black race" :| ) could be super intriguing, or truly going the distance with portraying a version of Clark Kent who struggles against the additional prejudice of being a black guy in America. At the very least, I think Coates could've done that well. It's more a case that everyone is burned out by other performative racelifts that have zero bearing on the characters' portrayals which immediately rubbed people the wrong way, so a black Kal-El movie was screwed right out of the gate.

I think a major issue is the idea that colourblind casting, a theatrical tradition, can be translated exactly over to cinema when they are two very different mediums with different expectations. On stage, it's awesome that anyone can play anyone, you can have an 80-year-old white Hamlet or an 18-year-old black Macbeth, but theatre by nature relies on imagination and immersion in the story which allows for massive suspension of disbelief. With film, there's always an expectation of verisimilitude, i.e. a sense of realism and internal consistency, even with fantasy stories. After all, a stage performance is a fleeting experience, a film performance lasts forever. If all the Hobbits were played by the same actors from the LOTR movies except Merry who's now played by Shaquille O'Neal or some shit, that's gonna take you right the fuck out of the story. This extends to period dramas based on actual history, such as the recent Anne Boleyn TV drama starring Jodie Turner-Smith as Boleyn, which was a blatant shit-stirring publicity stunt for what ended up being a mediocre show. If the artists behind it really want to racelift a character or even a real historical figure, I support their right to that freedom of expression 100%, but the execution can still be criticised, especially when it's not done with any legitimate artistic purpose.

The Personal History of David Copperfield is a great film that actually handles colourblind casting really well by emphasising the theatrical nature of the story, but even in that, there are some distracting examples: James Steerforth played by curly-haired white guy Aneurin Barnard, then his mother Mrs. Steerforth played by very black Nikki Amuka-Bird, who's also supposed to be a Victorian noblewoman. She turns a great performance honestly, but the idea that she's meant to be related to James is... unconvincing, to say the least.

IDK how I can tie Dragon Ball back into this rant but uhhh yeah, another major minority character (by Japanese standards) besides Uub would be pretty lit I guess.
Not really true that the majority are criticizing them as i've seen plenty of praise from those groups for those so-called lazy reboots and remakes. So there is a demand for this sort of thing as well, otherwise the studios wouldn't be doing it period. More original films is always nice, but this is still a big deal for a lot of people. I think there is absolutely a legitimate artistic purpose for doing this.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:20 pm

KingVegetto wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:12 am I don't see it as absurd in the least, straight white males are a dime-a-dozen in fictional media, so yes I think race-lifting does automatically make a character more interesting and it's not just me that thinks that. Also Sam Jackson isn't the most stereo-typically black actor I think of, for me that would be a black comedic actor like Chris Rock. I think Jackson was the perfect choice for the role personally, I like Denzel but I just can't picture him as Fury, he definitely more in down-to-earth fare like the Equalizer films.
I'm going to assume that you and the people who feel this way generally aren't...well, black? I say that because I personally don't know any black people (here or in real life, including myself) who have ever responded well or incredibly enthusiastically to race-swaps. All this shows is that there has been an underrepresentation of black people in film; it doesn't really serve as a credit to race-swapping imho. If there were more original black characters put on film, it wouldn't feel so interesting or unusual for a character to be race-swapped.

And yeah, I consider Chris Rock more primarily a comedian and not a film actor, that's why I didn't mention him. Again, all things said and done, I don't mind Jackson much as Fury, but I still don't see how it's made the character any better.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by KingVegetto » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:26 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:20 pm
KingVegetto wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:12 am I don't see it as absurd in the least, straight white males are a dime-a-dozen in fictional media, so yes I think race-lifting does automatically make a character more interesting and it's not just me that thinks that. Also Sam Jackson isn't the most stereo-typically black actor I think of, for me that would be a black comedic actor like Chris Rock. I think Jackson was the perfect choice for the role personally, I like Denzel but I just can't picture him as Fury, he definitely more in down-to-earth fare like the Equalizer films.
I'm going to assume that you and the people who feel this way generally aren't...well, black? I say that because I personally don't know any black people (here or in real life, including myself) who have ever responded well or incredibly enthusiastic to race-swaps. All this shows is that there has been an underrepresentation of black people in film; it doesn't really serve as a credit to race-swapping imho. If there were more original black characters put on film, it wouldn't feel so interesting or unusual for a character to be race-swapped.

And yeah, I consider Chris Rock more primarily a comedian and not a film actor, that's why I didn't mention him. Again, all things said and done, I don't mind Jackson much as Fury, but I still don't see how it's made the character any better.
I'm not black myself, but i've seen and met plenty of black folks that did respond positively to those characters, just because everyone you know didn't does not mean they don't exist, if they didn't exist Hollywood wouldn't be making these decisions at all. Like i've never personally met someone that liked that Twilight movies, but I know they exist because they made 5 of the damn things.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:31 pm

KingVegetto wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:26 pm I'm not black myself, but i've seen and met plenty of black folks that did respond positively to those characters, just because everyone you know didn't does not mean they don't exist, if they didn't exist Hollywood wouldn't be making these decisions at all. Like i've never personally met someone that liked that Twilight movies, but I know they exist because they made 5 of the damn things.
That's latching onto a few words to take what I said out of context. I never said they didn't exist, I just said I haven't met any. On the same end, just because you know black people who happen to be excited about it, it doesn't mean a bunch of others feel that way. That said...you don't think these same black people you know would respond just as positively (if not moreso) to original black characters? Idk, I can't wrap my head around the idea of a character suddenly being more interesting because they were changed to being another race. You still didn't answer as to what actually makes the character more interesting, some character traits or just because they're black? Because if it's mainly the latter, that still points to there being a larger, longer problem of underrepresentation of original characters who are non-white. Race-swapping feels like a half-hearted attempt to rectify that, not a sincere move. It also still functions from the idea that film/media will continue to be dominated by a majority of white characters, and that the good white man is doing a great thing by race-swapping to a minority; if it wasn't, why would it even be a thing? I've seen nothing brought up to change my mind on this.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: With DB targeting a more international audience nowadays, do you see a minority someday becoming part of the main ca

Post by KingVegetto » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:09 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:31 pm
KingVegetto wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:26 pm I'm not black myself, but i've seen and met plenty of black folks that did respond positively to those characters, just because everyone you know didn't does not mean they don't exist, if they didn't exist Hollywood wouldn't be making these decisions at all. Like i've never personally met someone that liked that Twilight movies, but I know they exist because they made 5 of the damn things.
That's latching onto a few words to take what I said out of context. I never said they didn't exist, I just said I haven't met any. On the same end, just because you know black people who happen to be excited about it, it doesn't mean a bunch of others feel that way. That said...you don't think these same black people you know would respond just as positively (if not moreso) to original black characters? Idk, I can't wrap my head around the idea of a character suddenly being more interesting because they were changed to being another race. You still didn't answer as to what actually makes the character more interesting, some character traits or just because they're black? Because if it's mainly the latter, that still points to there being a larger, longer problem of underrepresentation of original characters who are non-white. Race-swapping feels like a half-hearted attempt to rectify that, not a sincere move. It also still functions from the idea that film/media will continue to be dominated by a majority of white characters, and that the good white man is doing a great thing by race-swapping to a minority; if it wasn't, why would it even be a thing? I've seen nothing brought up to change my mind on this.
I never said they wouldn't, i'm just saying it dosen't have to be one or the other, there's no reason at all why we can't have both original films starring BIPOC and remakes and reboots featuring traditionally white characters as a different race. I don't believe it's half-hearted at all, also you never specifically asked what made them more interesting before now. Your post certainly isn't doing anything to change my mind, so I guess that leaves us at a stalemate. I don't really see how changing a characters race functions on the idea that media will still be dominated by white characters, that makes no sense to me at all.

I think this nicely sums up Fury:https://www.domtheartist.com/2019/10/01 ... ame-black/

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