Misanthropic themes in Dragon Ball and other Toriyama work

[DragonBallFoodie]

A lot of humor is generally dressing up a terrible situation/person in a manner that makes it amusing, more bearable and enjoyable.

Basil Fawlty and Fred Flintstone are borderline abusers.

The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy is about the end of the world. (Also Douglas Adams reportedly had a negative view of humanity)

South Park is basically about a bunch of children with utterly awful parents.


With DB, there's got a bunch of unsympathetic protagonists: in the beginning there was a vain rich brat, a superpowered country yokel, a perverted martial arts sensei, a split personality maid, a sneaky monk, and a couple of criminals. Joining them as time went on was an evil alien's son, a fallen prince, a couple of killer cyborgs, a demon turned good, and unofficially a cat god.

And yet the humor is strong enough that these characters work with each other fairly well, their dynamic giving a great bunch of laughs and their loyalty to each other being strong enough that they can be friends (or allies). So I wouldn't call misanthropes a part of the story or a significant theme.


But nowadays my thinking is that DB feels a whole lot better in its early days, when Toriyama's sense of humor and adventure made it a fun lighthearted romp, and when the characters were young and fresh.

[Majin Buu]

I think the Buu arc's opening narration about how peacetime only breeds more foolish people, among other aspects previously mentioned, does indeed hint at a cynical worldview on Toriyama's part, though I think calling it "misanthropic" is inaccurate. It's an aspect of his writing that I appreciate, especially considering Dragon Ball's reputation for being more on the idealistic side of things. Sometimes life isn't fair, sometimes you don't get what you want, and sometimes foolish people screw things up for everyone (the heroes included).

[PurestEvil]

I think the Buu arc's opening narration about how peacetime only breeds more foolish people, among other aspects previously mentioned, does indeed hint at a cynical worldview on Toriyama's part, though I think calling it "misanthropic" is inaccurate. It's an aspect of his writing that I appreciate, especially considering Dragon Ball's reputation for being more on the idealistic side of things. Sometimes life isn't fair, sometimes you don't get what you want, and sometimes foolish people screw things up for everyone (the heroes included).

hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times

[LoganForkHands73]

hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times

Das beautiful, man.

[PurestEvil]

hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times

Das beautiful, man.

Thank G Michael Hopf

[JulieYBM]

I think the Buu arc's opening narration about how peacetime only breeds more foolish people, among other aspects previously mentioned, does indeed hint at a cynical worldview on Toriyama's part, though I think calling it "misanthropic" is inaccurate. It's an aspect of his writing that I appreciate, especially considering Dragon Ball's reputation for being more on the idealistic side of things. Sometimes life isn't fair, sometimes you don't get what you want, and sometimes foolish people screw things up for everyone (the heroes included).

hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times

Hard times turn people into walking, talking glass jaws.

[ABED]

There's not some hard and fast rule. Some go through hard times and they crack but some develop character from it or at the very least, it reveals character.

[Anonymous Friend]

The entire character of Beerus is treated as a joke. He threatens to destroy the earth on the smallest slight and is then placated with sweets.

You don’t have to tell me that Beerus’ antics are played for laughs. I’m aware of that. I’m just personally tired of his shtick at this point. Regardless, he’s not the prime example of how the deities in DBS irk me. That would be Zen-Oh, who I greatly dislike as a character and concept.

What exactly do you have against Zen-Oh. I've only watched the anime and know nothing of the manga. From what I can gather all of the deities and such have jobs that they're performing. Many of them don't really have personalities and the few that do are subversions. Beerus would be expected to be this mean, hardened person. Always angry or grumpy and irritated. He does show some slight shades at that but that not how he's mostly presented. Someone in Zen-oh's position could be presented a stern and serious all the time. He made quick friends with Goku, and I think that's a good thing. As well as him being the absolute most powerful being.

[WittyUsername]

The entire character of Beerus is treated as a joke. He threatens to destroy the earth on the smallest slight and is then placated with sweets.

You don’t have to tell me that Beerus’ antics are played for laughs. I’m aware of that. I’m just personally tired of his shtick at this point. Regardless, he’s not the prime example of how the deities in DBS irk me. That would be Zen-Oh, who I greatly dislike as a character and concept.

What exactly do you have against Zen-Oh. I've only watched the anime and know nothing of the manga. From what I can gather all of the deities and such have jobs that they're performing. Many of them don't really have personalities and the few that do are subversions. Beerus would be expected to be this mean, hardened person. Always angry or grumpy and irritated. He does show some slight shades at that but that not how he's mostly presented. Someone in Zen-oh's position could be presented a stern and serious all the time. He made quick friends with Goku, and I think that's a good thing. As well as him being the absolute most powerful being.

I already said what my problem was. Zen-Oh’s existence in the context of the Dragon Ball universe is frustrating to me. I don’t like the idea of Dragon Ball having an all-powerful and supreme god with infinite power, and I especially don’t like the idea that said god is an apathetic child who is willing to just erase everything from existence if he feels like it, with no one being able to stop him. The anime seemed to try and rectify that by establishing that the Tournament of Power was a secret test all along, but nothing like that is in the manga, meaning it didn’t come from Toriyama.

[ABED]

Having a god at the top makes sense given there's a hierarchy that's long since been established and having him be apathetic explains why he didn't step in to stop threats like Buu.

[MasenkoHA]

Having a god at the top makes sense given there's a hierarchy that's long since been established and having him be apathetic explains why he didn't step in to stop threats like Buu.

All of that but also it’s refreshing that after all these deities being expert martial artist the God of all Gods is NOT a martial artist and doesn’t know a single thing about it other than violence is fun like a kid watching WWE or UFC. We’ve been conditioned to expect all these powerful beings to be martial artist but the most powerful of them all wouldn’t even know how to throw a punch but he can wipe you from existence without even blinking.

[Skar]

Having a god at the top makes sense given there's a hierarchy that's long since been established and having him be apathetic explains why he didn't step in to stop threats like Buu.

I don't think that's what he meant. Marvel and DC have supreme gods who are apathetic or neutral since they're not intervening in every major threat but Zeno destroyed six universes in the past only because he felt like it. Maybe he enjoyed the tournament enough not to do it again but it all depends on his mood. It does make their existence a little bleak since gods could work their best to keep their universe in order and they end up collateral damage if Zeno's annoyed over something.

[ABED]

Having a god at the top makes sense given there's a hierarchy that's long since been established and having him be apathetic explains why he didn't step in to stop threats like Buu.

I don't think that's what he meant. Marvel and DC have supreme gods who are apathetic or neutral since they're not intervening in every major threat but Zeno destroyed six universes in the past only because he felt like it. Maybe he enjoyed the tournament enough not to do it again but it all depends on his mood. It does make their existence a little bleak since gods could work their best to keep their universe in order and they end up collateral damage if Zeno's annoyed over something.

Perhaps, but it's a story that's not about that sort of thing so we know Zen Oh isn't just going to blink our characters and story out of existence.

[Anonymous Friend]

Having a god at the top makes sense given there's a hierarchy that's long since been established and having him be apathetic explains why he didn't step in to stop threats like Buu.

I don't think that's what he meant. Marvel and DC have supreme gods who are apathetic or neutral since they're not intervening in every major threat but Zeno destroyed six universes in the past only because he felt like it. Maybe he enjoyed the tournament enough not to do it again but it all depends on his mood. It does make their existence a little bleak since gods could work their best to keep their universe in order and they end up collateral damage if Zeno's annoyed over something.

It's literally Zen=Oh's job to create and destroy. There was a reason for the stakes of the ToP beyond entertainment. And Beerus is the one who usually detroys for whims. And didn't he get chastised for not doing it more.

[WittyUsername]

Having a god at the top makes sense given there's a hierarchy that's long since been established and having him be apathetic explains why he didn't step in to stop threats like Buu.

I don't think that's what he meant. Marvel and DC have supreme gods who are apathetic or neutral since they're not intervening in every major threat but Zeno destroyed six universes in the past only because he felt like it. Maybe he enjoyed the tournament enough not to do it again but it all depends on his mood. It does make their existence a little bleak since gods could work their best to keep their universe in order and they end up collateral damage if Zeno's annoyed over something.

It's literally Zen=Oh's job to create and destroy. There was a reason for the stakes of the ToP beyond entertainment. And Beerus is the one who usually detroys for whims. And didn't he get chastised for not doing it more.

As I said earlier, the whole thing about the ToP having a hidden purpose is only in the anime. The manga mentions nothing about the Tournament being a test. In fact, in the manga, the Grand Priest is actually surprised when #17 wishes to bring back the erased universes.

As for Beerus, it’s established that he’s an objectively lousy God of Destruction, but that’s chalked up to his general laziness, not some refusal to destroy things.

[Grimlock]

It's worth mentioning that Zeno, as far as we all can tell, doen't create anything. It was never said he has this ability, he can only erase.

So if it wasn't for the Super Dragon Balls, the erased Universes would probably never come back.

[Anonymous Friend]

I don't think that's what he meant. Marvel and DC have supreme gods who are apathetic or neutral since they're not intervening in every major threat but Zeno destroyed six universes in the past only because he felt like it. Maybe he enjoyed the tournament enough not to do it again but it all depends on his mood. It does make their existence a little bleak since gods could work their best to keep their universe in order and they end up collateral damage if Zeno's annoyed over something.

It's literally Zen=Oh's job to create and destroy. There was a reason for the stakes of the ToP beyond entertainment. And Beerus is the one who usually detroys for whims. And didn't he get chastised for not doing it more.

As I said earlier, the whole thing about the ToP having a hidden purpose is only in the anime. The manga mentions nothing about the Tournament being a test. In fact, in the manga, the Grand Priest is actually surprised when #17 wishes to bring back the erased universes.

As for Beerus, it’s established that he’s an objectively lousy God of Destruction, but that’s chalked up to his general laziness, not some refusal to destroy things.

Seriously? I called it from the moment the terms were made that someone was going to wish all losing universes get restored. But thought that was always the plan. Does the manga keep the thing about the participating universes not being grown enough?

[ABED]

I don't see how Zeno's motivation being anime only is relevant.

[WittyUsername]

It's literally Zen=Oh's job to create and destroy. There was a reason for the stakes of the ToP beyond entertainment. And Beerus is the one who usually detroys for whims. And didn't he get chastised for not doing it more.

As I said earlier, the whole thing about the ToP having a hidden purpose is only in the anime. The manga mentions nothing about the Tournament being a test. In fact, in the manga, the Grand Priest is actually surprised when #17 wishes to bring back the erased universes.

As for Beerus, it’s established that he’s an objectively lousy God of Destruction, but that’s chalked up to his general laziness, not some refusal to destroy things.

Seriously? I called it from the moment the terms were made that someone was going to wish all losing universes get restored. But thought that was always the plan. Does the manga keep the thing about the participating universes not being grown enough?

The manga still establishes that the participating universes are all below the universes that are exempt from the tournament, but again, there’s nothing in it to suggest that the Zen-Ohs put together the tournament as a test. It was purely for their own amusement.

I don't see how Zeno's motivation being anime only is relevant.

It’s relevant because it means that Toriyama wasn’t the one who came up with it, which ties into the idea that his version of Dragon Ball has some inherent cynicism in it.

[MasenkoHA]

It’s relevant because it means that Toriyama wasn’t the one who came up with it, which ties into the idea that his version of Dragon Ball has some inherent cynicism in it.

Yeah….in a story where the winner still wishes to restore all the universes back instead of his own selfish desires. Sooooooo cynical.