Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:17 am
I agree. I don't think the Cell arc is as uninspired as the arcs in Super (specifically Resurrection F), but aside from the ending with the Father-Son Kamehame Ha there isn't really a lot of charm to it. I'd go as far as to say without said final attack it would just feel like another generic supervillain arc.
Agreed.
Cell is just past the golden age, when Toriyama was burnt out and running out of ideas. Super is the exhumed corpse of the franchise, done by Toriyama out of a sense of obligation rather than out of a legitimate desire to tell any more stories.
I honestly think Super would be better off if Toriyama had never got involved, or if he merely consulted here and there. We've heard some stupid stuff about Battle of Gods' early drafts (when it was a very unfinished script that would have been significantly worked on either with or without Toriyama), but it sounded far more unique than the mindless nostalgia-fest it ended up being. BoG turned out to be just a retread of the 2008 OVA but significantly more drawn-out, with less reason to exist, and with the delusion that it was somehow more important than it is.
Granted, Super Broly was very good, and if the next movie turns out very good, maybe Toriyama simply took a few years to get his mojo back. Who knows. Honestly though, either way, I don't see any new Dragon Ball material matching up to the original golden age. I think roughly Broly's level of quality is the best we'll get; it's good, it's worth seeing, I enjoyed it a lot more than most of the other Dragon Ball movies, but it's not a patch on the original run.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:17 am
The Boo arc gets a lot of hate for being a mess, but I don't think it's as bad as Cell in that regard. The fact Toriyama constantly changes his mind about who the saviour of that arc was actually worked in it's favour because it makes it unpredictable, and the ending also subverts the "passing on the torch" trope, but because having a Genki Dama made it feel like the Earth was giving back to Goku for all the times he's saved it made the father taking back the mantle work. Having a more comedic villain rather than a stoic boss one was also a breath of fresh air, and felt like a genuine attempt to bring Dragon Ball back to it's gag roots.
Yeah, I agree.
The Cell and Boo arcs both suffer from a lot of the same issues, but the Boo arc benefits from a carefree feeling and the redirections being far more spread-out, and more natural-feeling. It still pretty much completely runs out of steam about the time Toriyama decided Gohan shouldn't defeat Super Boo, but it does ultimately build to a satisfying finale.
Dr. Casey wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:02 am
I'd say that I enjoy everything from episode 60 of Dragon Ball onwards (the introduction of Tao Pai Pai) to about the same extent. The original hunt for the Dragon Balls, the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, the Colonel Silver arc, Muscle Tower, and General Blue are all enjoyable enough to me, but well below the remainder of the entire series. I love the Land of Korin mini-arc - the first fight against Tao Pai Pai has always been very close to the top of my favorites list, Korin's tower feels impossibly tall and climbing it a hopeless and Herculean goal, and I've always enjoyed that sleepy interlude where everyone is just standing around waiting because all the story's factions are at a standstill. I enjoy everything from that point onwards wholeheartedly, whereas things like Muscle Tower or the Pirate Cave divide me between 80 percent "enjoyment" and 20 percent "I wish I could get to the good stuff already" antsiness.
Fair take.
I draw the start point as being the 21st Tenkaichi because it's a sudden jump in quality, and it's the show suddenly finding itself. It would continue to get better over the next few arcs for sure, but the 21st Tenkaichi is the proper start of everything, if you ask me, whereas Pilaf feels more like a 13x length pilot episode that doesn't quite know what the show is yet. That's why I draw the line there. I agree that the line could easily be drawn slightly later, and Tao Pai-Pai is probably the right place to draw it if you want to be a little more discerning when trying to find the moment Dragon Ball became really damn great, instead of merely very good.
Dr. Casey wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:02 am
Just out of curiosity, why doesn't the Saiyan saga make the cut? It's hard for me to imagine the Saiyan Saga not being seen as the awesomest thing ever.
I've not thought a huge amount about this, but here's what comes to mind right now:
Because it's not as unique, it suffers from having really weird focus issues (who is the main character at any point from Goku dying until he arrives on the scene and saves Gohan?), and it's somewhat plot and character light in a lot of ways; it's pretty much laser-focussed on being about the two central fights of the arc, not so much on the characters going on a personal journey, that's secondary, and only really happens for Gohan and Piccolo, and of the two of them, only Gohan is actually involved to any decent degree in the main fight of the arc, and only in a sort of support role, he doesn't really get to do much with what he's learned over the course of the arc.
To put it very simply: The Saiyan arc is two awesome fights with some pretty cool character growth between them. The 22nd Tenkaichi, Piccolo, and 23rd are stories where the fights are simply a part of that story that helps tell it, and between them, the three arcs form one great big story in which Goku grows immensely as a person. He grows up, and I don't just mean because he physically becomes a teenager/adult, the events of the story make him grow as a person.
Another aspect of this all is that Vegeta is only interesting as a villain in hindsight, knowing where he goes as a character later on. In the Saiyan arc itself, he's a bit too similar to villains we've had in the past (specifically Tao and Piccolo); he's only unique in terms of his backstory of being a Saiyan, which doesn't really matter. Tao did beat Goku way before and did kill Bora, but Piccolo is the first time someone in the main cast has died, and at that point it feels like anyone/everyone could be next. Kuririn dies, Goku nearly dies, Yamucha is being hunted, Roshi ends up dying, Tenshinhan would have died if Goku hadn't stepped in to fight Piccolo in their final clash... It's a pretty brutal arc, and it's very shocking and exciting. Things really feel dangerous in a way they hadn't before. The Saiyan arc continues this feeling, but doesn't build on it meaningfully (in fact, I'd argue it feels far safer, far less shocking), and I'd personally argue that Vegeta just wasn't as interesting or new as Piccolo. The fact so many English-speaking fans didn't see Piccolo until after Vegeta certainly helps the Saiyan arc feel more bold, but if you see them in order, it's clear the Saiyan arc is, in a lot of ways, more of the same.
There's also Tenshinhan, who was very cool as an antagonist, and had quite the journey across the 22nd to 23rd period. He goes from being pretty much a villain to being one of the Dragon Ball gang. By the time we're doing Vegeta, even if we do factor in Vegeta's growth all the way up to the Boo arc, we've already seen Piccolo and Tenshinhan do it and arguably their versions were far tighter as stories, and they both had better starts when they were antagonists.
None of this is to say that the Saiyan arc is bad, or that Vegeta is a bad villain, or anything like that (I do still consider Saiyan/Namek to be in the "golden age" after all). It's just that, to me personally, 22nd-23rd is Dragon Ball at its very, very best, and the preceding rambling is my theory on why Saiyan/Namek doesn't appeal to me as much as those three arcs. Saiyan/Namek is a worthy follow-up to those arcs though, and a great way to end the golden age.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.