Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:54 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:30 pm So I've just started something I've been meaning to do for awhile, which is watching all of DB/DBZ subbed (I've seen bits of it subbed, but nowhere close to the entire anime). My feelings on the arcs are largely based on memory of the anime I've watched plus reading the manga last year. So I'll see if my thoughts still hold.
I am glad to hear this! :thumbup:

It will be interesting to hear whether your feelings about the series arcs change watching subbed!

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:43 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:54 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:30 pm So I've just started something I've been meaning to do for awhile, which is watching all of DB/DBZ subbed (I've seen bits of it subbed, but nowhere close to the entire anime). My feelings on the arcs are largely based on memory of the anime I've watched plus reading the manga last year. So I'll see if my thoughts still hold.
I am glad to hear this! :thumbup:

It will be interesting to hear whether your feelings about the series arcs change watching subbed!
Definitely! It already feels like a different series in some key respects :)
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:40 am

Ever since I started thinking about which parts of the series I liked the most, my favorites have always been the Piccolo Daimao arc, the Saiyan arc, and the Buu arc. Those three are still my favorites, but the Buu arc is now at the top whereas in the past it was more of an even split.

While I don't hate them, the Freeza and Cell arcs have always been among my least favorites, in part because I'm one of those fans that prefers Dragon Ball to be mystical/magical rather than sci-fi. With the Freeza arc specifically, they were simply on Namek far too long for me (it doesn't help that Namek is a pretty boring planet and that the anime adaptation is horribly paced); plus Freeza was never my favorite Dragon Ball villain, at best he's only like my 3rd or 4th favorite.

With the Cell arc, I like robots and the time travel aspect does shake things up in a good way, so the Cell arc has always had a bit more going for it than the Freeza arc as a whole for me, but Cell himself has largely fallen out of favor with me due to his bland characterization, taking the arc as a whole down a peg with him; and while Gohan's big badass hero moment is still cool, the divisiveness over Gohan's role in the series from that point on has lessened the awesomeness of it for me.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:00 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:40 am Ever since I started thinking about which parts of the series I liked the most, my favorites have always been the Piccolo Daimao arc, the Saiyan arc, and the Buu arc. Those three are still my favorites, but the Buu arc is now at the top whereas in the past it was more of an even split.

While I don't hate them, the Freeza and Cell arcs have always been among my least favorites, in part because I'm one of those fans that prefers Dragon Ball to be mystical/magical rather than sci-fi. With the Freeza arc specifically, they were simply on Namek far too long for me (it doesn't help that Namek is a pretty boring planet and that the anime adaptation is horribly paced); plus Freeza was never my favorite Dragon Ball villain, at best he's only like my 3rd or 4th favorite.

With the Cell arc, I like robots and the time travel aspect does shake things up in a good way, so the Cell arc has always had a bit more going for it than the Freeza arc as a whole for me, but Cell himself has largely fallen out of favor with me due to his bland characterization, taking the arc as a whole down a peg with him; and while Gohan's big badass hero moment is still cool, the divisiveness over Gohan's role in the series from that point on has lessened the awesomeness of it for me.
I found myself head-nodding to a lot of this. The Buu arc was my entryway into Dragon Ball, and thus is the one I'm most nostalgic about. I think, during my re-watch (first time watching it fully subbed, although I have watched the dub with the Kikuchi music before), I may find myself preferring it to the Cell saga (they're pretty dead even for me as it is, and at one point I thought the Cell saga was much better). Despite flaws, a lot of it works for me, and it's got some concepts that lean more into that mystical side of Dragon Ball you mentioned, like Fusion, Babidi, Buu, the demons, the Supreme Kai (annoying but interesting when he was introduced) etc. SSJ3 gets its share of flak for not getting the job done, but I love Goku's transformation, the look, and that it feels like an emergency transformation. As for Namek, what you said about the planet being boring is some of what drops it for me currently. Frieza was my favorite villain for a long time, and I admit I enjoyed him in the TOP...but I feel like he's outstaying his welcome. I enjoy Cell as a villain...but I also largely agree with your assessment. As for Gohan, I find myself preferring his characterization in the early Buu arc to his in the Cell Games, despite many fans thinking that was the high point for his character. So I definitely understand your thoughts there.

My top 3 currently (based on the manga and what I remember from the last time I watched the anime) are the Tenshinhan, Piccolo Jr., and Saiyan sagas, with the bolded being my slight favorite.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by The Accountant » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:51 am

When I first blitzed through 'Z' years ago my favorite was the Cell-Artificial Humans portion of the total story, this continued to be my favorite for a decent while after that. It wasn't until I found time to invest into the original series that my opinion shifted. Currently my favorite arc is the Saiyan invasion section. Watching the early arcs of 'Z' after the original series is an incredibly rewarding and gratifying experience. At least for me, It really does feel like one continuous story, that is until the Artificial-Humans portion funnily enough. Of course I still enjoy the later parts of 'Z', but after developing an appreciation for the supporting cast of characters present in the Saiyan saga, I now enjoy that the most.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:15 am

I find myself liking the 1st half of the Namek arc way better than the second half which was the continuous Frieza fight. If Namek was split along those lines, then I'd include that first half in my top 3. I actually like that more than the Saiyan arc.

The Saiyan arc was also a favorite, but that's slipped down for me. I like the hopelessness that's present throughout, but several aspects of the arc rub me the wrong way these days. The fact that the Earthlings could make absolutely no headway versus Nappa is really frustrating. I never liked the "wait for Goku" portion of the series and would have preferred more of an extended fight with the Earthlings and Nappa. The tactics shown were pretty good, but I'd want that extended. I don't mind Nappa dominating them, but the way it was done made Piccolo seem useless. Nappa seemed even more invincible than Vegeta and that really shouldn't have been the case. Also, the fact that there was no real payoff for any of the dead Earthlings is still tragic. In a vacuum its a great arc, but when you know what comes after, it feels like more could have been done with the Earthlings as this was, in some ways, a sendoff for many of them.
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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Yuji » Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:30 am

I think I've always considered the Boo arc my favorite and it still remains true, though nowadays it faces competition from the 23rd TB, the Saiyan and Namek arcs, so my second favorite arc is always rotating.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Cipher » Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:09 am

Absolutely. As a kid/teen, I would have sworn by the Cell arc, which was my proper introduction to the series, after catching the end of the Namek arc in reruns.

Getting back into it in late high school, I probably would have made the case that it never got better than Namek, and probably should have ended there.

Later still, and now I don't see this ever changing, the Boo arc lands handily on top for me, with Namek in second, and the Cell arc--though I don't dislike it and enjoy every arc in DB--clocking in dead last.

I think it has to do with where DB's appeals lie for me continually shifting. As a kid simply caught up in the melodrama, of course the hyper-serious tension of the Cell arc and its time-travel, apocalyptic drama had me uncritically hooked. Later, thinking of the series more holistically, I was taken with how well the Namek arc functioned as escalation and climax to everything that had come prior, as well as just how damn good it is in the manga. As an adult where it's harder to be that invested in the surface-level melodrama of the series, I've found the Boo arc to be, while also genuinely, really exciting no matter how many times I reread or rewatch it, also the best at DB nailing its particular tone and strengths, finding its best combination of both dire tension and quirky anything-goes humor right on its way out the door, while in many ways acting as both a more satisfying and tonally fitting climax.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by BladeXRG » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:58 pm

Just like you, went from Freeza's arc to 23° Tenkaichi Budokai arc (or Piccolo's arc in the manga).

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:28 pm

I must say, I'm pleasantly surprised by a few of you naming the Boo saga. For whatever issues it may have, I have to agree that it's almost a perfect tonal balance of Dragon Ball's light and dark aspects. I think that's its overall strongest aspect.
BladeXRG wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:58 pm Just like you, went from Freeza's arc to 23° Tenkaichi Budokai arc (or Piccolo's arc in the manga).
Always glad to see another vote for the Piccolo Jr. arc. Don't get me wrong, I still hold the Freeza saga (especially in the manga) in very high regard, but the 23rd Budokai just has so many elements I've come to realize are what I love most about the entire series (both in the manga and anime).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by KingVegetto » Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:45 pm

Cipher wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:09 am Absolutely. As a kid/teen, I would have sworn by the Cell arc, which was my proper introduction to the series, after catching the end of the Namek arc in reruns.

Getting back into it in late high school, I probably would have made the case that it never got better than Namek, and probably should have ended there.

Later still, and now I don't see this ever changing, the Boo arc lands handily on top for me, with Namek in second, and the Cell arc--though I don't dislike it and enjoy every arc in DB--clocking in dead last.

I think it has to do with where DB's appeals lie for me continually shifting. As a kid simply caught up in the melodrama, of course the hyper-serious tension of the Cell arc and its time-travel, apocalyptic drama had me uncritically hooked. Later, thinking of the series more holistically, I was taken with how well the Namek arc functioned as escalation and climax to everything that had come prior, as well as just how damn good it is in the manga. As an adult where it's harder to be that invested in the surface-level melodrama of the series, I've found the Boo arc to be, while also genuinely, really exciting no matter how many times I reread or rewatch it, also the best at DB nailing its particular tone and strengths, finding its best combination of both dire tension and quirky anything-goes humor right on its way out the door, while in many ways acting as both a more satisfying and tonally fitting climax.
I'm kind of in the opposite camp, I LOVED the Namek stuff as a kid, especially the intense battle against Freeza. I still enjoy it, but rewatching it as an adult made me realize just how drawn out it was at times, hell one episode was basically a clip show that only existed so the anime wouldn't get too far ahead of the Manga. I have to say I definitely prefer the Cell arc myself, Gohan really comes into his own and Cell provides a villain with an interesting case of what TvTropes calls "Blue and Orange Morality". He's so obsessed with being "perfect" that nothing else matters to him, and I find that mindset fascinating. Plus the Androids have a lot of personality and add an interesting dynamic to the show(it was nice to see them take Vegata down a peg).

Couldn't tell you much about the Buu arc as I kind of dropped off halfway into it back when it was originally airing and i've not seen it since.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Cipher » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:00 pm

KingVegetto wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:45 pm I'm kind of in the opposite camp, I LOVED the Namek stuff as a kid, especially the intense battle against Freeza. I still enjoy it, but rewatching it as an adult made me realize just how drawn out it was at times, hell one episode was basically a clip show that only existed so the anime wouldn't get too far ahead of the Manga. I have to say I definitely prefer the Cell arc myself, Gohan really comes into his own and Cell provides a villain with an interesting case of what TvTropes calls "Blue and Orange Morality". He's so obsessed with being "perfect" that nothing else matters to him, and I find that mindset fascinating. Plus the Androids have a lot of personality and add an interesting dynamic to the show(it was nice to see them take Vegata down a peg).
The Namek arc is terrible in the anime. Gotta read it.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by KingVegetto » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:35 pm

Cipher wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:00 pm
KingVegetto wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:45 pm I'm kind of in the opposite camp, I LOVED the Namek stuff as a kid, especially the intense battle against Freeza. I still enjoy it, but rewatching it as an adult made me realize just how drawn out it was at times, hell one episode was basically a clip show that only existed so the anime wouldn't get too far ahead of the Manga. I have to say I definitely prefer the Cell arc myself, Gohan really comes into his own and Cell provides a villain with an interesting case of what TvTropes calls "Blue and Orange Morality". He's so obsessed with being "perfect" that nothing else matters to him, and I find that mindset fascinating. Plus the Androids have a lot of personality and add an interesting dynamic to the show(it was nice to see them take Vegata down a peg).
The Namek arc is terrible in the anime. Gotta read it.
I've seen others like Gaffer argue it's the other way around.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:53 am

My favourite arc used to be the Androids/Cell arc when I was a kid. I liked that it was the conclusion to Gohan's journey, which also served as a perfectly fine jumping-on point of his journey for anyone who missed the past couple of arcs, I liked how large-scale it was, I liked that it ran the gamut from light silliness in the style of the Pilaf arc to the almost completely straight sci-fi/fantsay horror it leaned into with Cell and with Trunks's ruined future. It felt dark but not grimdark, funny but not in a way that undercuts the story. It was everything I wanted out of Dragon Ball.

But, then I grew up a bit more, became a bit more discerning, and began to regard the Androids/Cell arc as a mess of different ideas that don't cleanly go together. It feels like Toriyama at his most uninspired, trying to tell a story he was getting increasingly tired of, changing the main thrust of the story every few chapters whenever he got bored of it.
To put it another way: In order to tell a good story, you have to enjoy it, or at least be interested. If you're bored while telling a story, you're going to tell a boring, uninspired story. Toriyama, being a good storyteller, has always known this (or perhaps more accurately, he has an instinctual grasp of the concept), and has a trick in his back pocket if he starts to get bored with his story; change it into something else. The Freeza arc did this very smoothly a couple of times, to great effect. The problem is, by the time he was doing Androids/Cell, he was burnt out on Dragon Ball and running out of fresh ideas, so he was getting bored with everything he tried, so the Cell arc feels like it was written by seven different people, wrestling for control at various different points and redirecting the story into something they really want to tell every few chapters, which ends up not working for the other writers, who then wrestle it in a different direction until finally all of them are either happy with it or stuck with it when we reach the Cell Games. The Boo arc suffers from a similar issue, though in my opinion it feels far fresher, more inspired, and more creative.

All this is to say, eventually, I came around to preferring the cleaner storytelling of many of the arcs before Androids/Cell.
To this day, I do still appreciate the same aspects of it as I used to, and I also love that it's a great last hurrah for Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Yamucha, and it's the centrepiece of Vegeta's character arc that would conclude in such magnificent fashion in the Boo arc, but if you asked me what Dragon Ball's golden age was, I'd say the ~250 episodes beginning with the 21st Tenkaichi and ending with the conclusion of the Freeza arc. This is an exceptionally long time for a show's golden age to last (one that's fairly evenly split between DB and Z, in fact, though Z has significantly more episodes outside this era), but it not only means my previous favourite arc was no longer my favourite, I considered its beginning to mark the definitive end of the golden age.

My next favourite became the Piccolo Daimao arc, but for nostalgia-related reasons, my current favourite remains the first tournament arc. It's the beginning of the golden age, it's wonderfully fun, the training episodes are a great chillout between major story arcs, and it's the beginning of Goku's journey to become the most powerful fighter in the universe (or multiverse if you don't ignore Super); while his adventures did begin with the Pilaf arc, training with Roshi is when he found his love of fighting. Honestly, it may even be a better starting point for a lot of people than DB episode 1 is, since the Pilaf arc has more in common with Dr. Slump than it does with what the show would end up actually becoming. It's very obviously a "season 1" that hasn't figured out what it is yet.

If nostalgia was less of a factor, my favourite would probably end up being the 22nd or 23rd tournaments, though the Piccolo arc would also be a very strong contender.
In fact, if I'm allowed to cheat and pick a 3-arc span as my favourite (and, in fairness, Red Ribbon is like five arcs in one, and the lines between arcs are often fairly arbitrary anyway :P), then my favourite is the trio of the 22nd Tenkaichi + Piccolo + 23rd. That entire 65-episode span is easily the very best Dragon Ball has to offer as a franchise. Arguably, even though the golden age would continue for another two arcs, it's all downhill after this trio. You just can't top it. Funimation would have done well to pick these 65 episodes as the subject of their initial syndication dubbing, rather than either DB 1-13 or Z 1-67.

-----

I bet if you ran a pair of Strawpolls on this, you'd find most English-speaking fans initially had a Z arc as their favourite, but a large portion changed their minds later. (Freeza probably gets the most votes in both, though)
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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:17 am

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:53 am My favourite arc used to be the Androids/Cell arc when I was a kid. I liked that it was the conclusion to Gohan's journey, which also served as a perfectly fine jumping-on point of his journey for anyone who missed the past couple of arcs, I liked how large-scale it was, I liked that it ran the gamut from light silliness in the style of the Pilaf arc to the almost completely straight sci-fi/fantsay horror it leaned into with Cell and with Trunks's ruined future. It felt dark but not grimdark, funny but not in a way that undercuts the story. It was everything I wanted out of Dragon Ball.

But, then I grew up a bit more, became a bit more discerning, and began to regard the Androids/Cell arc as a mess of different ideas that don't cleanly go together. It feels like Toriyama at his most uninspired, trying to tell a story he was getting increasingly tired of, changing the main thrust of the story every few chapters whenever he got bored of it.
To put it another way: In order to tell a good story, you have to enjoy it, or at least be interested. If you're bored while telling a story, you're going to tell a boring, uninspired story. Toriyama, being a good storyteller, has always known this (or perhaps more accurately, he has an instinctual grasp of the concept), and has a trick in his back pocket if he starts to get bored with his story; change it into something else. The Freeza arc did this very smoothly a couple of times, to great effect. The problem is, by the time he was doing Androids/Cell, he was burnt out on Dragon Ball and running out of fresh ideas, so he was getting bored with everything he tried, so the Cell arc feels like it was written by seven different people, wrestling for control at various different points and redirecting the story into something they really want to tell every few chapters, which ends up not working for the other writers, who then wrestle it in a different direction until finally all of them are either happy with it or stuck with it when we reach the Cell Games. The Boo arc suffers from a similar issue, though in my opinion it feels far fresher, more inspired, and more creative.
I agree. I don't think the Cell arc is as uninspired as the arcs in Super (specifically Resurrection F), but aside from the ending with the Father-Son Kamehame Ha there isn't really a lot of charm to it. I'd go as far as to say without said final attack it would just feel like another generic supervillain arc.

The Boo arc gets a lot of hate for being a mess, but I don't think it's as bad as Cell in that regard. The fact Toriyama constantly changes his mind about who the saviour of that arc was actually worked in it's favour because it makes it unpredictable, and the ending also subverts the "passing on the torch" trope, but because having a Genki Dama made it feel like the Earth was giving back to Goku for all the times he's saved it made the father taking back the mantle work. Having a more comedic villain rather than a stoic boss one was also a breath of fresh air, and felt like a genuine attempt to bring Dragon Ball back to it's gag roots.

As for my answer, it was Boo when I was a kid, and as I said above I still have much fondness for that arc, but I've grown to love the Freeza arc the best, mostly because it was the culmination of so many things that came before. If it was the last arc of the series it would have served as a grand conclusion to one last adventure arc where they look for the Dragon Balls, it had the greatest tension because the Dragon Balls themselves still had limits, Freeza linked back to Goku's (naturally retconned) heritage, and the fight between the two was so well in terms of story and choreography it felt like a natural spectacle. I can go back and watch that fight alone without the context of everything that came before (although granted because I know it so well) and feel both entertained and inspired. That arc is pure gold, Toriyama's magnum opus.
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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Dr. Casey » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:02 am

Good read from Robo. I've always been of two minds about the whole 'golden age' idea. Whereas I do think that on a certain level the 22nd Budokai through Freeza arcs had a type of quality that wasn't felt as strongly afterwards, whenever I actually watch the series I enjoy Cell and Buu just as much as everything else. There's a part of me that says that on some kind of objective level the earlier portions have the advantage, but on a subjective enjoyment level the difference is close to nonexistent. Kind of weird.

I'd say that I enjoy everything from episode 60 of Dragon Ball onwards (the introduction of Tao Pai Pai) to about the same extent. The original hunt for the Dragon Balls, the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, the Colonel Silver arc, Muscle Tower, and General Blue are all enjoyable enough to me, but well below the remainder of the entire series. I love the Land of Korin mini-arc - the first fight against Tao Pai Pai has always been very close to the top of my favorites list, Korin's tower feels impossibly tall and climbing it a hopeless and Herculean goal, and I've always enjoyed that sleepy interlude where everyone is just standing around waiting because all the story's factions are at a standstill. I enjoy everything from that point onwards wholeheartedly, whereas things like Muscle Tower or the Pirate Cave divide me between 80 percent "enjoyment" and 20 percent "I wish I could get to the good stuff already" antsiness.
Arguably, even though the golden age would continue for another two arcs, it's all downhill after this trio.
Just out of curiosity, why doesn't the Saiyan saga make the cut? It's hard for me to imagine the Saiyan Saga not being seen as the awesomest thing ever. :P
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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:23 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:17 am I agree. I don't think the Cell arc is as uninspired as the arcs in Super (specifically Resurrection F), but aside from the ending with the Father-Son Kamehame Ha there isn't really a lot of charm to it. I'd go as far as to say without said final attack it would just feel like another generic supervillain arc.
Agreed.

Cell is just past the golden age, when Toriyama was burnt out and running out of ideas. Super is the exhumed corpse of the franchise, done by Toriyama out of a sense of obligation rather than out of a legitimate desire to tell any more stories.
I honestly think Super would be better off if Toriyama had never got involved, or if he merely consulted here and there. We've heard some stupid stuff about Battle of Gods' early drafts (when it was a very unfinished script that would have been significantly worked on either with or without Toriyama), but it sounded far more unique than the mindless nostalgia-fest it ended up being. BoG turned out to be just a retread of the 2008 OVA but significantly more drawn-out, with less reason to exist, and with the delusion that it was somehow more important than it is.

Granted, Super Broly was very good, and if the next movie turns out very good, maybe Toriyama simply took a few years to get his mojo back. Who knows. Honestly though, either way, I don't see any new Dragon Ball material matching up to the original golden age. I think roughly Broly's level of quality is the best we'll get; it's good, it's worth seeing, I enjoyed it a lot more than most of the other Dragon Ball movies, but it's not a patch on the original run.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:17 am The Boo arc gets a lot of hate for being a mess, but I don't think it's as bad as Cell in that regard. The fact Toriyama constantly changes his mind about who the saviour of that arc was actually worked in it's favour because it makes it unpredictable, and the ending also subverts the "passing on the torch" trope, but because having a Genki Dama made it feel like the Earth was giving back to Goku for all the times he's saved it made the father taking back the mantle work. Having a more comedic villain rather than a stoic boss one was also a breath of fresh air, and felt like a genuine attempt to bring Dragon Ball back to it's gag roots.
Yeah, I agree.

The Cell and Boo arcs both suffer from a lot of the same issues, but the Boo arc benefits from a carefree feeling and the redirections being far more spread-out, and more natural-feeling. It still pretty much completely runs out of steam about the time Toriyama decided Gohan shouldn't defeat Super Boo, but it does ultimately build to a satisfying finale.
Dr. Casey wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:02 am I'd say that I enjoy everything from episode 60 of Dragon Ball onwards (the introduction of Tao Pai Pai) to about the same extent. The original hunt for the Dragon Balls, the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, the Colonel Silver arc, Muscle Tower, and General Blue are all enjoyable enough to me, but well below the remainder of the entire series. I love the Land of Korin mini-arc - the first fight against Tao Pai Pai has always been very close to the top of my favorites list, Korin's tower feels impossibly tall and climbing it a hopeless and Herculean goal, and I've always enjoyed that sleepy interlude where everyone is just standing around waiting because all the story's factions are at a standstill. I enjoy everything from that point onwards wholeheartedly, whereas things like Muscle Tower or the Pirate Cave divide me between 80 percent "enjoyment" and 20 percent "I wish I could get to the good stuff already" antsiness.
Fair take.

I draw the start point as being the 21st Tenkaichi because it's a sudden jump in quality, and it's the show suddenly finding itself. It would continue to get better over the next few arcs for sure, but the 21st Tenkaichi is the proper start of everything, if you ask me, whereas Pilaf feels more like a 13x length pilot episode that doesn't quite know what the show is yet. That's why I draw the line there. I agree that the line could easily be drawn slightly later, and Tao Pai-Pai is probably the right place to draw it if you want to be a little more discerning when trying to find the moment Dragon Ball became really damn great, instead of merely very good.
Dr. Casey wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:02 am Just out of curiosity, why doesn't the Saiyan saga make the cut? It's hard for me to imagine the Saiyan Saga not being seen as the awesomest thing ever. :P
I've not thought a huge amount about this, but here's what comes to mind right now:

Because it's not as unique, it suffers from having really weird focus issues (who is the main character at any point from Goku dying until he arrives on the scene and saves Gohan?), and it's somewhat plot and character light in a lot of ways; it's pretty much laser-focussed on being about the two central fights of the arc, not so much on the characters going on a personal journey, that's secondary, and only really happens for Gohan and Piccolo, and of the two of them, only Gohan is actually involved to any decent degree in the main fight of the arc, and only in a sort of support role, he doesn't really get to do much with what he's learned over the course of the arc.

To put it very simply: The Saiyan arc is two awesome fights with some pretty cool character growth between them. The 22nd Tenkaichi, Piccolo, and 23rd are stories where the fights are simply a part of that story that helps tell it, and between them, the three arcs form one great big story in which Goku grows immensely as a person. He grows up, and I don't just mean because he physically becomes a teenager/adult, the events of the story make him grow as a person.

Another aspect of this all is that Vegeta is only interesting as a villain in hindsight, knowing where he goes as a character later on. In the Saiyan arc itself, he's a bit too similar to villains we've had in the past (specifically Tao and Piccolo); he's only unique in terms of his backstory of being a Saiyan, which doesn't really matter. Tao did beat Goku way before and did kill Bora, but Piccolo is the first time someone in the main cast has died, and at that point it feels like anyone/everyone could be next. Kuririn dies, Goku nearly dies, Yamucha is being hunted, Roshi ends up dying, Tenshinhan would have died if Goku hadn't stepped in to fight Piccolo in their final clash... It's a pretty brutal arc, and it's very shocking and exciting. Things really feel dangerous in a way they hadn't before. The Saiyan arc continues this feeling, but doesn't build on it meaningfully (in fact, I'd argue it feels far safer, far less shocking), and I'd personally argue that Vegeta just wasn't as interesting or new as Piccolo. The fact so many English-speaking fans didn't see Piccolo until after Vegeta certainly helps the Saiyan arc feel more bold, but if you see them in order, it's clear the Saiyan arc is, in a lot of ways, more of the same.
There's also Tenshinhan, who was very cool as an antagonist, and had quite the journey across the 22nd to 23rd period. He goes from being pretty much a villain to being one of the Dragon Ball gang. By the time we're doing Vegeta, even if we do factor in Vegeta's growth all the way up to the Boo arc, we've already seen Piccolo and Tenshinhan do it and arguably their versions were far tighter as stories, and they both had better starts when they were antagonists.

None of this is to say that the Saiyan arc is bad, or that Vegeta is a bad villain, or anything like that (I do still consider Saiyan/Namek to be in the "golden age" after all). It's just that, to me personally, 22nd-23rd is Dragon Ball at its very, very best, and the preceding rambling is my theory on why Saiyan/Namek doesn't appeal to me as much as those three arcs. Saiyan/Namek is a worthy follow-up to those arcs though, and a great way to end the golden age.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: Do You Have a Different Favorite Arc than You've Had in the Past?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:55 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:53 am My favourite arc used to be the Androids/Cell arc when I was a kid. I liked that it was the conclusion to Gohan's journey, which also served as a perfectly fine jumping-on point of his journey for anyone who missed the past couple of arcs, I liked how large-scale it was, I liked that it ran the gamut from light silliness in the style of the Pilaf arc to the almost completely straight sci-fi/fantsay horror it leaned into with Cell and with Trunks's ruined future. It felt dark but not grimdark, funny but not in a way that undercuts the story. It was everything I wanted out of Dragon Ball.

But, then I grew up a bit more, became a bit more discerning, and began to regard the Androids/Cell arc as a mess of different ideas that don't cleanly go together. It feels like Toriyama at his most uninspired, trying to tell a story he was getting increasingly tired of, changing the main thrust of the story every few chapters whenever he got bored of it.

To put it another way: In order to tell a good story, you have to enjoy it, or at least be interested. If you're bored while telling a story, you're going to tell a boring, uninspired story. Toriyama, being a good storyteller, has always known this (or perhaps more accurately, he has an instinctual grasp of the concept), and has a trick in his back pocket if he starts to get bored with his story; change it into something else. The Freeza arc did this very smoothly a couple of times, to great effect. The problem is, by the time he was doing Androids/Cell, he was burnt out on Dragon Ball and running out of fresh ideas, so he was getting bored with everything he tried, so the Cell arc feels like it was written by seven different people, wrestling for control at various different points and redirecting the story into something they really want to tell every few chapters, which ends up not working for the other writers, who then wrestle it in a different direction until finally all of them are either happy with it or stuck with it when we reach the Cell Games. The Boo arc suffers from a similar issue, though in my opinion it feels far fresher, more inspired, and more creative.

All this is to say, eventually, I came around to preferring the cleaner storytelling of many of the arcs before Androids/Cell.

If nostalgia was less of a factor, my favourite would probably end up being the 22nd or 23rd tournaments, though the Piccolo arc would also be a very strong contender.
In fact, if I'm allowed to cheat and pick a 3-arc span as my favourite (and, in fairness, Red Ribbon is like five arcs in one, and the lines between arcs are often fairly arbitrary anyway :P), then my favourite is the trio of the 22nd Tenkaichi + Piccolo + 23rd. That entire 65-episode span is easily the very best Dragon Ball has to offer as a franchise. Arguably, even though the golden age would continue for another two arcs, it's all downhill after this trio. You just can't top it. Funimation would have done well to pick these 65 episodes as the subject of their initial syndication dubbing, rather than either DB 1-13 or Z 1-67.
Some of this felt like I was reading my own thoughts! Even though the Freeza saga was my favorite for a long time, I used to consider Android/Cell as the easy #2/possibly the actual best for all of its iconic classic moments. Now that I'm a bit older and have read the manga portion, that's just what the Android/Cell arc is to me; it's plenty of great moments, but the individual moments are greater than the sum of their parts. I'm making my way through the anime subbed (currently, ironically, on the 21st Budokai), but I have a feeling that once I've made it through Z, I'll find I prefer the Boo saga as well. I completely agree that Boo suffers from the same issues as Cell, but there's plenty tonally about it that make it feel fresher (even moreso with the anime thanks to We Gotta Powah! and We Were Angels). Personally, I like Boo, and even Babidi and Dabura more as villains (admittedly 16, 17, and 18 weren't really villains in the main timeline) than the androids and Cell. I like the sci-fi/horror aspects of the latter, but the former are supernatural, and I prefer that more for Dragon Ball, plus I love the zany, unpredictable nature of Boo.

My definitive golden age for Dragon Ball is the 22nd Budokai through the Freeza arc. I read your analysis on the Saiyan saga and found myself agreeing with you for the most part...but even so, I feel like so much of it works all the same, so I'd put it in there. That said, I agree with your assessment on the training arc/21st Budokai being the first true beginning of what Dragon Ball became, and I find the RRA arc to be a lot of fun.
Another aspect of this all is that Vegeta is only interesting as a villain in hindsight, knowing where he goes as a character later on. In the Saiyan arc itself, he's a bit too similar to villains we've had in the past (specifically Tao and Piccolo); he's only unique in terms of his backstory of being a Saiyan, which doesn't really matter. Tao did beat Goku way before and did kill Bora, but Piccolo is the first time someone in the main cast has died, and at that point it feels like anyone/everyone could be next. Kuririn dies, Goku nearly dies, Yamucha is being hunted, Roshi ends up dying, Tenshinhan would have died if Goku hadn't stepped in to fight Piccolo in their final clash... It's a pretty brutal arc, and it's very shocking and exciting. Things really feel dangerous in a way they hadn't before. The Saiyan arc continues this feeling, but doesn't build on it meaningfully (in fact, I'd argue it feels far safer, far less shocking), and I'd personally argue that Vegeta just wasn't as interesting or new as Piccolo. The fact so many English-speaking fans didn't see Piccolo until after Vegeta certainly helps the Saiyan arc feel more bold, but if you see them in order, it's clear the Saiyan arc is, in a lot of ways, more of the same.
There's also Tenshinhan, who was very cool as an antagonist, and had quite the journey across the 22nd to 23rd period. He goes from being pretty much a villain to being one of the Dragon Ball gang. By the time we're doing Vegeta, even if we do factor in Vegeta's growth all the way up to the Boo arc, we've already seen Piccolo and Tenshinhan do it and arguably their versions were far tighter as stories, and they both had better starts when they were antagonists.
I do love Vegeta as a character and especially as a villain at the start, but my signature agrees with you. Well, I don't outright state this in my signature, but it's part of my opinion of preferring the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo dynamic to Goku vs Vegeta, the latter really being more of Vegeta vs Vegeta while Goku is more focused on improving himself. People will make the case that Vegeta is the best-developed character because of how long-spanning redemption is, but I feel Tenshinhan and Piccolo had much tighter story arcs and more organic redemptions than he did. So I co-sign the hell out of this lol.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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