King Piccolo or Piccolo Jr; Which was the better arc?

[90sDBZ]

These are widely considered to be the 2 best arcs of the original Dragon Ball, and many prefer them to Z's arcs too.

Between the 2 which do you guys consider to be better?

They're both dark, tension filled, action packed, and feature great fights and defining character moments. Both also feel like they could have easily been part of Z.

While they're both great, I prefer King Piccolo for a few reasons. While the story had gradually been getting more serious, Krillin's death and subsequent events were a real major turning point. In a single episode we had the happy upbeat ending to the 22nd Tournament, with Goku and the recently reformed Tien being lifted up by the crowd, displaying mutual respect, and Roshi's optimistic speech to Tien. Then in the same episode we have that great foreboding moment of Krillin running off to get Goku's stuff, and that eerie sunset. Then Goku finds him dead and the world instantly feels so much darker.

All hell breaks loose during this arc, with Tambourine's killing spree, Goku disobeying Roshi's order for the first time and running off, Goku losing twice, and multiple major character deaths including Shenron himself.

Roshi's presence is really strong in this arc. For once he's deadly serious, and we see barely any of his usual antics. I love the dynamic with him and Tien working together after having recently fought at the Tournament, with Roshi having played a huge part in him reforming. I also love how we get a natural extension of Tien's redemption arc, with him now being one of the major players for the good guys, eager to atone and now full of respect for Roshi.

We get a real showcase of many familiar faces from the 2 Tournaments being bumped off by Tambourine. Tambourine is a great villain in his own right, and is initially just as intimidating as Piccolo if not more so. All this makes it even more satisfying when Goku takes him out.

Goku's first encounter with Piccolo is great too. He takes a brutal beating but refuses to give up until he's almost killed. The use of rain in this scene works really well. Then we have Roshi's sacrifice which feels really appropriate, as his master Mutaito went out the same way.

Some people don't like the Ultra Divine Water as a solution, but to me it feels earned as Goku takes a leap of faith and nearly dies from it. The anime filler makes it even better.

Piccolo taking over the world and spreading terror and chaos feels huge compared to anything that happened in the series up to that point. The final battle between him and Goku is one of the best in all of DB, and the end with Goku having only 1 good arm is a classic moment.

The Piccolo Jr arc is a great continuation of this story, and gives us a great Tournament, although I personally slightly prefer the 22nd to the 23rd.

Seeing Goku fully grown for the first time is a watershed moment, and is just really cool to witness. He feels very mature in this arc.

Piccolo Jr is an interesting character. While Toriyama doesn't hit us over the head with it, it's pretty evident early on that this Piccolo is different. While he's clearly a bad guy, there are subtle signs he isn't quite as bad as his father. He enters a Tournament rather than immediately going out of his way to kill innocents. He shows respect to Krillin. And there's that filler scene were he saves a mother and child, foreshadowing the person he would become (it's also great because one of his final acts in GT is saving a kid).

Every finalist in this tournament is a major character, so all the fights feel like a big deal. The action itself is really well choreographed too. The final battle is close and brutal, and Goku finally winning a Tournament was awesome.

All in all while the Piccolo Jr arc is great, the arc before it just set the bar so high that topping it would always be hard. There isn't quite the same sense of scale and armageddon that there was. The stakes were still high, but nothing truly awful happens this time around, and things are ultimately confined to the Tournament. It's understandable as keeping things fresh and avoiding repetition is important.

For me the King Piccolo arc just feels that little bit more major and significant, so it wins out.

[ABED]

Overall, the Piccolo Daimao arc, but as far as second bites at the apple, I don't know of too many arcs that did it as well as the Piccolo Jr. arc. Usually bringing back a villain already defeated is screams out "diminishing returns" but Toriyama sticks the landing. I think the biggest reason for that is Goku didn't just beat his nemesis again, he accomplished his longest running goal, winning the Tenkaichi Budokai.

[MasenkoHA]

The Daimao arc, pretty much for the reasons you said.

The Piccolo Daimao arc was a HUGE turning point for Dragon Ball. Up to this point most of the antagonist Goku faced were pretty much jokes. Tao Pai Pai causing the biggest trouble and even then it felt like a minor roadblock. The only good guy who had died was Bora, a character we just met that same episode and his death was just a reason for Goku to be proactive in taking care of the Red Ribbon army instead of doing his own thing and clowning on them when they crossed his path.

But the Daimao arc kicks off with Kuririn, a character we got to know and love for over 80 episodes is found dead. Muten Roshi is terrified of this Piccolo Daimao character and doesn’t want Goku or Tenshinhan to even fight him. And the “Oh shit” meter keeps rising. Piccolo who nearly killed Goku as he was has gotten his wish for eternal youth and is even more powerful. Muten Roshi and Chaozu are dead. Piccolo kills Shen Long so even if Goku defeats him there is no way to bring Kuririn and the others back (as far as we knew). And then Piccolo actually conquers the entire earth and the only hope is Goku finding a way to become more powerful with Karin’s help or Tenshinhan mastering the Mafuba and giving his own life.


And the Daimao arc pretty much sets the formula for “Dragon Ball Z” storytelling elements like Goku being taken out of commission for extended periods of time, something happening to make the dragon balls unusable, the good guys can and will die, a powerful foe whose reputation precedes him who will transform and become even more powerful.



That’s not to undersell the 23th Tenkaichi Budokai arc. It wraps up Goku’s series long motivation to become “Tenkaichi” it has, imo, the greatest fight in the entire franchise. It introduces, arguably, the fourth most important character in the series (with the second and third being introduced in the very next arc) it allows Goku to become a man. It’s not the game changing arc of Daimao or the Saiyan arc but it is an important as an ending and setting the stage for a new beginning.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I'm going to say...the Piccolo Jr. arc by a hair right now, my most recent exposure to it being from reading the entire manga a year ago. However, I'm in the process of watching the anime subbed for the first time, so my thoughts could change once I get to the King Piccolo arc in the anime, especially factoring in the Ultra Divine Water filler (which for me does make it a lot more satisfying of a power-up).

I'll go ahead and mention the key things I love about the King Piccolo arc, many of which I agree with you on. For one, it's a drastic darker tonal shift. I love serious Roshi and which he was portrayed like this throughout all of Dragon Ball, with next-to-no perverted antics. It truly feels like a coming of age story for Goku since we, as you said, see him disobeying Roshi for the first time. Krillin's death is devastating, moreso this time than against Frieza, and all of the best martial artists being killed off lends a disturbing and almost hopeless feeling to the series that it hadn't had up to this point, and maybe not since. We see Tien redeeming his previous actions even further by providing aid against King Piccolo. King Piccolo himself is (along with his son/reincarnated self Piccolo Jr.) my favorite villain of the franchise. Even though I saw much of Z prior to watching these two arcs, the moment when King Piccolo kills Shenron was a shocker for me, as I didn't think that was possible at the time. People who think only everything from Z-onwards is important are really missing out on moments like that. Also, King Piccolo had effectively taken over the world, and the anime shows more of this, showing a glimpse of how frightening a Demon King-run world would be. His plan was sound...it just didn't count on Goku. We see ki sensed for the first time.

All that gushing makes it sound like a dead ringer for my favorite of the two. But I love that the entire Piccolo Jr. arc is building toward the re-match between Goku and Piccolo; it feels like a heavyweight boxing match, like Rocky vs Apollo Creed or Rocky vs Clubber Lang (I'm a Rocky fan ). I see this arc as starting immediately following King Piccolo's defeat, with Goku's training on Kami's lookout expanding upon the lore and locales of Dragon Ball in a fantastic way. Of course, 3 years later, the moment the cast sees the grown-up Goku is an iconic re-introduction to protagonist, and all the visual cues and hints that Goku has advanced beyond measure are fun to watch. Seeing Goku's reactions to the other fights, seeing everyone's reaction to Goku's feats, and just his overall poise...I don't know if it's ever been done better than here. We know big stuff is going down, but it's thrilling seeing all the pieces moving across the chess board (in this case, the 23rd Budokai). And Piccolo...hence my name and avatar, Piccolo Jr. is my favorite Dragon Ball character, as a villain, and later in Z as a hero. The fact that it's King Piccolo's reincarnation coming back to fight Goku cements both Goku AND Piccolo as big deals during this time. And hence my signature, the Goku vs Piccolo clash/rivarly of late Dragon Ball/early Dragon Ball Z is my favorite of the series. All of the fights are fantastic, the standouts being...well, Krillin vs Piccolo, Tien vs Goku, Shen vs Yamcha, and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. as my favorite fight of the entire franchise. The animation is outstanding.

I'll also add that both arcs have some of Kikuchi's best music. So anyway, right now I give a slight edge to the Piccolo Jr. arc.

[90sDBZ]

I love that the entire Piccolo Jr. arc is building toward the re-match between Goku and Piccolo; it feels like a heavyweight boxing match, like Rocky vs Apollo Creed or Rocky vs Clubber Lang (I'm a Rocky fan ).

Same here. I love those movies for similar reasons to DB. That Director's cut of Rocky 4 is looking awesome based off the trailer.

I'll also add that both arcs have some of Kikuchi's best music. So anyway, right now I give a slight edge to the Piccolo Jr. arc.

Yeah I should've mentioned this. For me his music was never better than it was in these 2 arcs.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I'm going to go for the Piccolo Junior arc.

Piccolo Diamao was good, in a lot of ways it felt like the Empire Strikes Back of Dragon Ball because of the introversion we see Goku go into a dark cave, coming face-to-face with an illusion that challenges him mentally before he faces his fear drinking the Chōshinsui water.

Piccolo Junior arc was the making of the Goku we all love, he's grown up, learned a lot about the art of combat and we get to see him put them to the test, and show no matter how much stronger his opponent gets he will persevere and even if he doesn't win it's a reason for him to train harder to have an even greater battle next time.

And Kikuchi absolutely nails it in both arcs.

Such a shame Scott McNeil never got to do either arc. For such a superb casting he was deprived of his character's glory days.

[MyVisionity]

To me they are kind of one single arc in many ways, two parts of a whole.

The Daimao section has some pacing issues and problems with filler, but overall I think that I prefer it to 23rd Budoukai. I enjoy Takeshi Aono's Daimao over Toshio Furukawa's Ma Junior. Daimao's death scene is still one of my favorites. (Having rewatched the scene recently, it's not quite as comical as I remembered and is very effective.)

The 23rd Budokai is really good, but I find myself enjoying the non-Piccolo related parts of it over the Piccolo content. I think that Ma Junior is a weaker character than Daimao, and doesn't really work out so well until the Saiyan arc. I think blending the Piccolo story with a Tenkaichi Budokai story hurts the arc overall.

One thing that I've noticed about both Daimao and 23 is that Toriyama was clearly new to doing more serious drama, because the Piccolo arcs go overboard on the drama. It's too over-the-top, especially in the Tournament.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I'm going to go for the Piccolo Junior arc.

Piccolo Diamao was good, in a lot of ways it felt like the Empire Strikes Back of Dragon Ball because of the introversion we see Goku go into a dark cave, coming face-to-face with an illusion that challenges him mentally before he faces his fear drinking the Chōshinsui water.

Such a shame Scott McNeil never got to do either arc. For such a superb casting he was deprived of his character's glory days.

That's a solid way of putting it. I'll go a step further and say that the Piccolo Jr. saga was for Goku what Return of the Jedi was for Luke.

Also absolutely regarding Scott McNeil, particularly in regard to Piccolo Jr. His work in the Saiyan saga and the Pioneer dub of Dead Zone was perfect in that you always felt this unease around Piccolo, like you couldn't fully trust him. If given the opportunity, he could have done some brilliant, creepy work in the Piccolo Jr. arc, as well as the King Piccolo arc if he voiced him there as well.

[PurestEvil]

Ma Junior arc, for sure. Unfortunately, there were a few...questionable plot elements in the Piccolo Daimao arc that made it less good in my opinion.

[ClutchBangstrip]

Manga: Daimao

Anime: Tie. Both were really good. Daimao's story was far better, to me... But Junior's art and animation was just a little better.

[Cipher]

Surprised to see so many votes for Demon King Piccolo here.

For me, the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai handily takes it in both mediums. The first Piccolo arc is an exciting tonal shift, to be sure, but you can really feel the growing pains in the series introducing its first supervillain-centric arc. The resolution comes, comparatively, easily. On the action front, Toriyama seems to be exhausted with child-sized Goku in the manga, and as a consequence the climactic battle comes out as one of the weaker major fights of the series, in terms of choreography and sense of speed and impact on the page. Pitting the child-sized Goku against the towering Piccolo was a hurdle.

On the other hand, I think the entire 23rd is exhilarating from start to finish, serving as a pretty unimpeachable climax to the entire first portion of the story. As telegraphed as the competitors in the final round are, and as much as that may take some tension out of the preceding bouts, you have the mystery and allure of just how powerful Goku's gotten during his off-screen training, the excitement of getting to know this more worldly version of himself--a man on a mission--and the developing drama with God and Piccolo. Behind it all is also the tension and promise of the Goku-Piccolo rematch, and the action of the earlier rounds is so explosive that your appetite is sufficiently whet for wondering how far the scale of the climax will go. For sheer spectacle, it has a roughly five-fight wall-to-wall run of some of the best action Toriyama ever draws in the manga. You can practically feel how excited he is in the first chapter of Goku vs. Tenshinhan, his first time cutting lose in a serious fight with the adult-proportioned Goku. The Goku vs. Piccolo fight, and its aftermath, also introduces the particular quirks and flaws of Goku's character which will see him through the end of the run and shape him into a more nuanced and interesting character than he was as a wide-eyed righteous boy. The revelation that he's prioritizing winning the tournament over saving the world is fantastic, and that and other moments allow for more engaging character beats in the climactic battle of the arc alone than I think the previous Piccolo storyline manages in its whole run. Goku and co. are out to stop a threat there, but they aren't doing anything particularly interesting as characters while they're at it. We're probably a bit inured to the shock now, as the beat is repeated the very next arc with Vegeta and a bit more drama behind it, but Goku sparing Piccolo at the end and telling him to run off and get stronger is a great twist. (One that, oddly, I still see misinterpreted all the time for taking Goku's lie about simply not wanting to hurt God on its face--even though other characters point out that they could have subdued Piccolo in other ways, and Goku ends on an internal monologue about hoping his supervillainous rival puts up an even better fight next time.)

For their respective villains, while Demon King Piccolo is a dependably dislikable cackling supervillain in the first storyline, he's rather disappointingly free of quirks and specific characterization outside of his seeming attachment to his children and pragmatism. On the other hand, Piccolo 2.0 immediately feels more like a fleshed out character, with his begrudging respect for and genuine interest in the martial arts and martial arts around him, while being out for Goku. He's someone you want to see get more page space as soon as he first shows up.

Demon King Piccolo is a serviceable first pass, but the 23rd is the final draft.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Surprised to see so many votes for Demon King Piccolo here.

For me, the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai handily takes it in both mediums. The first Piccolo arc is an exciting tonal shift, to be sure, but you can really feel the growing pains in the series introducing its first supervillain-centric arc. The resolution comes, comparatively, easily. On the action front, Toriyama seems to be exhausted with child-sized Goku in the manga, and as a consequence the climactic battle comes out as one of the weaker major fights of the series, in terms of choreography and sense of speed and impact on the page. Pitting the child-sized Goku against the towering Piccolo was a hurdle.

On the other hand, I think the entire 23rd is exhilarating from start to finish, serving as a pretty unimpeachable climax to the entire first portion of the story. As telegraphed as the competitors in the final round are, and as much as that may take some tension out of the preceding bouts, you have the mystery and allure of just how powerful Goku's gotten during his off-screen training, the excitement of getting to know this more worldly version of himself--a man on a mission--and the developing drama with God and Piccolo. Behind it all is also the tension and promise of the Goku-Piccolo rematch, and the action of the earlier rounds is so explosive that your appetite is sufficiently whet for wondering how far the scale of the climax will go. For sheer spectacle, it has a roughly five-fight wall-to-wall run of some of the best action Toriyama ever draws in the manga. You can practically feel how excited he is in the first chapter of Goku vs. Tenshinhan, his first time cutting lose in a serious fight with the adult-proportioned Goku. The Goku vs. Piccolo fight, and its aftermath, also introduces the particular quirks and flaws of Goku's character which will see him through the end of the run and shape him into a more nuanced and interesting character than he was as a wide-eyed righteous boy. The revelation that he's prioritizing winning the tournament over saving the world is fantastic, and that and other moments allow for more engaging character beats in the climactic battle of the arc alone than I think the previous Piccolo storyline manages in its whole run. Goku and co. are out to stop a threat there, but they aren't doing anything particularly interesting as characters while they're at it. We're probably a bit inured to the shock now, as the beat is repeated the very next arc with Vegeta and a bit more drama behind it, but Goku sparing Piccolo at the end and telling him to run off and get stronger is a great twist. (One that, oddly, I still see misinterpreted all the time for taking Goku's lie about simply not wanting to hurt God on its face--even though other characters point out that they could have subdued Piccolo in other ways, and Goku ends on an internal monologue about hoping his supervillainous rival puts up an even better fight next time.)

For their respective villains, while Demon King Piccolo is a dependably dislikable cackling supervillain in the first storyline, he's rather disappointingly free of quirks and specific characterization outside of his seeming attachment to his children and pragmatism. On the other hand, Piccolo 2.0 immediately feels more like a fleshed out character, with his begrudging respect for and genuine interest in the martial arts and martial arts around him, while being out for Goku. He's someone you want to see get more page space as soon as he first shows up.

Demon King Piccolo is a serviceable first pass, but the 23rd is the final draft.

I co-sign ALL of this. Your point about Goku sparing Piccolo Jr. is great; it also shows just how much Goku has changed within his 3 years of training with Kami, as the King Piccolo-era Goku was more vengeful and did not hesitate to kill. From the moment he spares Piccolo-onward, Goku tends to go the route of sparing his enemies whenever possible. Even the moment when he kills Kid Buu, but wishes he could come back as a better person, seems like a direct reference to Piccolo Daimao coming back as the better Piccolo Jr., a connection I can't believe I've never made before.

Also, what you said about Jr. being a more nuanced character (despite Daimao being my favorite villain, although I guess you can say Jr. ties with him for me) is on-point. I like to think that, being a reincarnation, this new Piccolo's attitude is born partially from knowing he can't afford to underestimate Goku, especially a Goku 3 years later after training with God. And even though Piccolo Jr. wants world domination, it feels like that's moreso programming from Daimao than his own instrinsic motivation. In a lot of ways, Piccolo Jr. feels like a foil for Goku, in that he also wants to be the best martial artist he can possibly be. All of this is present from the outset, before his redemption in the next arc.

[Cipher]

Also, what you said about Jr. being a more nuanced character (despite Daimao being my favorite villain, although I guess you can say Jr. ties with him for me) is on-point. I like to think that, being a reincarnation, this new Piccolo's attitude is born partially from knowing he can't afford to underestimate Goku, especially a Goku 3 years later after training with God. And even though Piccolo Jr. wants world domination, it feels like that's moreso programming from Daimao than his own instrinsic motivation. In a lot of ways, Piccolo Jr. feels like a foil for Goku, in that he also wants to be the best martial artist he can possibly be. All of this is present from the outset, before his redemption in the next arc.

Yeah. Piccolo 1.0 is a supervillain who simply happens to fight Goku in a martial-arts match because they're both strong.

Piccolo 2.0 is himself a martial-artist, out to kill Goku in a martial-arts way, but who happens to have his original incarnation's motivations as well.

I think that scenario is a lot more engaging from the start, and allows the character to feel a little more present, and on top of that acts as the perfect, fun, in-genre climax to that entire leg of the story.

I think in general revisiting the world-altering stakes of the previous storyline but restricting it all to a tiny ring for the follow-up and real conclusion (and tying it into the long-simmering storyline of Goku's goal of winning a championship round at the Tenkaichi Budokai) is absolutely inspired. The tension of the scale of the plot being too big for the scale of the scenario (in everyone but Goku's mind, since he's still tournament-first, as we learn to everyone else's horror) is very present.

[kemuri07]

Ma Junior. Don't get me wrong...I absolutely love the Piccolo arc. It makes the first clear cut away from DB's parody past, and Krillin's death in the anime will always fucking haunt me.

But Piccolo Jr has my favorite interpretation of Goku as a character. Goku is no longer a complete ignoramous, but a battle genius who uses tactics to win against his enemies. He also carries himself with a confidence that makes him extremely likable and charismatic. I think Z's tone shift to more melodrama and power ups means we see less of this Goku, though I think him taking out Nappa comes close.

We don't talk about (Anime) Super in this house.