Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Yuli Ban » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:29 pm

Exactly

The actors improved not by 2001-2003, but by 2005-2006 which is when the uncut redub was made (which is what most OG dub fans are familiar with).

Not!Drummond Sabat and Raspccolo were present through Boo for the TV aired dub, for example. The writing is the only thing that improved, and even then they would take liberties on occasion.

It wasn't even until Kai that characters like Tenshinhan stopped enun-ci-a-ting ev-er-y sy-ll-a-ble like a bad Saturday morning cartoon.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:45 am

eledoremassis02 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:04 pm Drummond is more of the arrogant high-ranking warrior (never got the Saturday morning cartoon villain vibe). Sabat's Vegeta is a growth of that but with a bigger swelled head, almost like an amateurish shakespearean actor if you will. He did make big strides even in the orange brick re-dub but his Piccolo made even bigger strides (kai).

I feel Drummond is still the better vegeta though (inducing the later ocean dub) as I think Drummond is just a better voice actor. However, they're both are not Ryō Horikawa.
This might sound like blasphemy to some, but I never liked Drummond Vegeta. Something about it just sounded like a swashbuckling pirate to me. I get that the Saiyans are space pirates, but they never traveled the seven seas.
Horikawa is best Vegeta, agreed.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:42 am

ABED wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:48 am My mind has changed a lot over the years concerning the Ocean dub. While the scripts aren't good, the actors are so good they are usually able to make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.
This is my stance as well. Nowadays I can at least appreciate the Ocean dub for it's actors (and to a lesser extent for its "wrong for Dragon Ball but not completely awful" replacement score). Though there's extra nostalgia here for me since some of them were in Beast Wars, which I loved as a kid and still do today. Scott McNeil will always be my favorite dub Piccolo.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:22 am

Is there any other dubs by FUNimation that are considered bad aside from their work on the pre-revival Dragon Ball trilogy?


I know Case Closed/Detective Conan gave the characters anglo saxon names and nearly used an American replacement score courtesy of Nathan Johnson but I don’t know if it’s considered a bad dub.


And Yuyu Hakusho seems to be about on par or slightly better than their dub of Dragon Ball: A lot of liberties taken with the script, and so so acting but the vibe is mostly left intact.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:32 pm

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:45 am
eledoremassis02 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:04 pm Drummond is more of the arrogant high-ranking warrior (never got the Saturday morning cartoon villain vibe). Sabat's Vegeta is a growth of that but with a bigger swelled head, almost like an amateurish shakespearean actor if you will. He did make big strides even in the orange brick re-dub but his Piccolo made even bigger strides (kai).

I feel Drummond is still the better vegeta though (inducing the later ocean dub) as I think Drummond is just a better voice actor. However, they're both are not Ryō Horikawa.
This might sound like blasphemy to some, but I never liked Drummond Vegeta. Something about it just sounded like a swashbuckling pirate to me. I get that the Saiyans are space pirates, but they never traveled the seven seas.
Horikawa is best Vegeta, agreed.
I can see the pirate vegeta, I think it's the way he over enunciates certain words. Also I agree 100% with your signature

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:43 pm

Drummond's Vegeta has a fascinating fandom history.

It was 1000000% derided by pre-FUNimation, existing fans upon its debut; in many ways, it was equivalent to the later Faulconer Production replacement score appraisal, where there was literally nothing positive said about it contemporaneously.

Very quickly after that, once the new fans just getting into the series through the dub upon same said debut started hopping online, they were dishing out pretty universal acclaim.

Things started changing as that first season came to an end when Vegeta starts losing his cool, because it was that "cool" that Horikawa has in spades that Drummond wasn't quite capturing. Once Vegeta's all nutso, all bets are off, and I don't think anyone's ever genuinely had anything negative to say about "You won't escape... MY WRATH!"

At that point, it was a begrudging "OK, that's a solid performance" from the old guard combined with "holy shit yes" from the new fans. (There were probably some holdouts, and I get it -- he still wasn't capturing a lot of the nuance of Horikawa's performance, but brought his own take to the table in other ways.)

Anyway, yeah, the full Dragon Ball franchise (DBZ specifically) is almost certainly FUNi's worst dub, even including other intentional "reversionings". With all the green performances and script changes and production mishaps and replacement-everythings and legacy cruft and intentional alterations and so on and so forth, is this even really a question?
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:59 pm

I agree with VegettoEX for the most part in regards to the above, though i will say Drummond's performance in the '96-'98 dub did seem ok with Saiyan/Namek arc Vegeta back when he was a full on villain character. Though OTOH for the bits of the Westwood dub of the Cell arc but especially by the Boo arc that i've seen it doesn't ft quite as well. There was also the rushed production aspect of that factored in but on the whole it didn't work when Vegeta really trended away from being a full villain.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:13 pm

It doesn’t work because it’s lacking any nuance or depth. It’s a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain voice which I guess made sense because Funimation’s initial approach was to treat it like a Saturday Morning cartoon and Vegeta was the big bad of the first arc and they didn’t even know if they were going to dub more than one season. And we know Funimation is terrible at looking ahead (or behind).

It’s a good performance with misguided direction. Which applies to a lot of the Ocean cast.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:20 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:13 pm It doesn’t work because it’s lacking any nuance or depth. It’s a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain voice which I guess made sense because Funimation’s initial approach was to treat it like a Saturday Morning cartoon and Vegeta was the big bad of the first arc and they didn’t even know if they were going to dub more than one season. And we know Funimation is terrible at looking ahead (or behind).

It’s a good performance with misguided direction. Which applies to a lot of the Ocean cast.
Then again, that seemed to have been the thinking with quite a few of the castings made there. Pauline Newstone's Freeza for instance definitely seemed like a mis cast made purely from looking at his first form (given the almost female looking features with that design) and going from there even though she was not a good fit, though that said hers wasn't even really too terrible of a performance especially compared to Linda Young's later on in the in house dub but clearly it was done with an incorrect portrayal of the character in mind.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by NitroEX » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:11 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:59 pm I agree with VegettoEX for the most part in regards to the above, though i will say Drummond's performance in the '96-'98 dub did seem ok with Saiyan/Namek arc Vegeta back when he was a full on villain character. Though OTOH for the bits of the Westwood dub of the Cell arc but especially by the Boo arc that i've seen it doesn't ft quite as well. There was also the rushed production aspect of that factored in but on the whole it didn't work when Vegeta really trended away from being a full villain.
I've encountered this sentiment countless times over the years but it's always struck me as the person simply not being used to Drummond by that point in the series. It makes total sense for Americans who, for the most part only had exposure to Sabat's Boo arc Vegeta rather than Drummond, but this was definitely not a widespread belief held at the time of the TV broadcasts where the Westwood dub was shown.

Keep in mind that this idea of Drummond "not fitting" later Vegeta only began trending in a post-Youtube fandom once clips of Westwood era Drummond started being shared to American audiences, by that point they were all accustomed to Sabat so it's no surprise they can accept Drummond in the earlier arcs (that they saw broadcasts of) but not for the later stuff.

Even without factoring in nostalgic bias, the idea of Vegeta as a character being a good guy by the Boo arc is pretty ludicrous. He literally becomes a villain as Majin Vegeta, and yes I know he redeems himself, but the point is he becomes more of a villain than he was in the prior arc. if anything Drummond was more fitting for Boo arc Vegeta because he returned to a more villainous state. Drummond's maniacal laughter from the Saiyan arc even made a return for that dub. Cell arc Vegeta was no good guy either, he might've shared a common enemy with the heroes, but he still had contempt for Goku and many of the others. I just think this repeated argument makes no sense, if folks don't like the later Drummond performance that's fine, but surely there has to be a more sensible argument.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:37 pm

NitroEX wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:11 pm I've encountered this sentiment countless times over the years but it's always struck me as the person simply not being used to Drummond by that point in the series. It makes total sense for Americans who, for the most part only had exposure to Sabat's Boo arc Vegeta rather than Drummond, but this was definitely not a widespread belief held at the time of the TV broadcasts where the Westwood dub was shown.

Keep in mind that this idea of Drummond "not fitting" later Vegeta only began trending in a post-Youtube fandom once clips of Westwood era Drummond started being shared to American audiences, by that point they were all accustomed to Sabat so it's no surprise they can accept Drummond in the earlier arcs (that they saw broadcasts of) but not for the later stuff.

Even without factoring in nostalgic bias, the idea of Vegeta as a character being a good guy by the Boo arc is pretty ludicrous. He literally becomes a villain as Majin Vegeta, and yes I know he redeems himself, but the point is he becomes more of a villain than he was in the prior arc. if anything Drummond was more fitting for Boo arc Vegeta because he returned to a more villainous state. Drummond's maniacal laughter from the Saiyan arc even made a return for that dub. Cell arc Vegeta was no good guy either, he might've shared a common enemy with the heroes, but he still had contempt for Goku and many of the others. I just think this repeated argument makes no sense, if folks don't like the later Drummond performance that's fine, but surely there has to be a more sensible argument.
I think some of the "Drummond not fitting Vegeta in Cell/Boo arc" sentiments also is based around his appearance/the change in art style. Saiyan Saga Vegeta was an imp, and the voice Drummond used is easy to picture with how small he was. While Vegeta later is still short, he's drawn with much more defined musculature, even in his neck, and a longer face/more defined jawbones, so Sabat's deeper, more testosterone-infused take is easier for some fans (particularly those like me who heard Sabat first) was easier to associate with the character. And there are times where Vegeta is notably drawn to appear taller in the Boo arc, like during the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight. But I do agree with your overall point, I think some of it is pre-association bias, with some fans thinking Vegeta wasn't the bad person he was in the early arcs. Vegeta wasn't really a good guy until the fight with Kid Boo.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:04 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:37 pm
NitroEX wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:11 pm I've encountered this sentiment countless times over the years but it's always struck me as the person simply not being used to Drummond by that point in the series. It makes total sense for Americans who, for the most part only had exposure to Sabat's Boo arc Vegeta rather than Drummond, but this was definitely not a widespread belief held at the time of the TV broadcasts where the Westwood dub was shown.

Keep in mind that this idea of Drummond "not fitting" later Vegeta only began trending in a post-Youtube fandom once clips of Westwood era Drummond started being shared to American audiences, by that point they were all accustomed to Sabat so it's no surprise they can accept Drummond in the earlier arcs (that they saw broadcasts of) but not for the later stuff.

Even without factoring in nostalgic bias, the idea of Vegeta as a character being a good guy by the Boo arc is pretty ludicrous. He literally becomes a villain as Majin Vegeta, and yes I know he redeems himself, but the point is he becomes more of a villain than he was in the prior arc. if anything Drummond was more fitting for Boo arc Vegeta because he returned to a more villainous state. Drummond's maniacal laughter from the Saiyan arc even made a return for that dub. Cell arc Vegeta was no good guy either, he might've shared a common enemy with the heroes, but he still had contempt for Goku and many of the others. I just think this repeated argument makes no sense, if folks don't like the later Drummond performance that's fine, but surely there has to be a more sensible argument.
I think some of the "Drummond not fitting Vegeta in Cell/Boo arc" sentiments also is based around his appearance/the change in art style. Saiyan Saga Vegeta was an imp, and the voice Drummond used is easy to picture with how small he was. While Vegeta later is still short, he's drawn with much more defined musculature, even in his neck, and a longer face/more defined jawbones, so Sabat's deeper, more testosterone-infused take is easier for some fans (particularly those like me who heard Sabat first) was easier to associate with the character. And there are times where Vegeta is notably drawn to appear taller in the Boo arc, like during the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight. But I do agree with your overall point, I think some of it is pre-association bias, with some fans thinking Vegeta wasn't the bad person he was in the early arcs. Vegeta wasn't really a good guy until the fight with Kid Boo.

Chris Sabat was still very much using his Brian Drummond voice well into the Cell saga

Like I really don’t hear much of a difference between this:
https://youtu.be/fckb45SpyCk


and this:
https://youtu.be/EdGa-2BSFiI


So aside from the obvious nostalgia influenced “Drummond was best Vegeta for the Saiyan and Namek saga but conveniently Sabat took over when he needed to!” take it just doesn’t hold together when Sabat’s performance was still very much informed by Drummond’s take until at least Buu. And honestly it was more like GT when he settled on his own “Vegeta”

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by NitroEX » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm

The art style shift is more understandable for sure, it's part of the reason I personally can't buy Sabat's Z performance in the Saiyan arc. He's deeper sounding than Nappa most of the time which, I just find ridiculous in combination with how he's drawn. In contrast, Sabat's GT Vegeta was an easier pill to swallow.

But in regards to Drummond, I've personally always been able to reconcile that no matter how bulky he's drawn later on, Vegeta's still a short character. Drummond's voice did also noticeably get gruffer in later arcs too so it wasn't exactly the same as the Saiyan arc but I suppose the difference doesn't matter to most.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:04 pm Chris Sabat was still very much using his Brian Drummond voice well into the Cell saga

Like I really don’t hear much of a difference between this:
https://youtu.be/fckb45SpyCk


and this:
https://youtu.be/EdGa-2BSFiI


So aside from the obvious nostalgia influenced “Drummond was best Vegeta for the Saiyan and Namek saga but conveniently Sabat took over when he needed to!” take it just doesn’t hold together when Sabat’s performance was still very much informed by Drummond’s take until at least Buu. And honestly it was more like GT when he settled on his own “Vegeta”
Ah, that's right, he was. I haven't watched the OG Funi Cell saga in forever.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:23 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:29 pm Exactly

The actors improved not by 2001-2003, but by 2005-2006 which is when the uncut redub was made (which is what most OG dub fans are familiar with).

Not!Drummond Sabat and Raspccolo were present through Boo for the TV aired dub, for example. The writing is the only thing that improved, and even then they would take liberties on occasion.

It wasn't even until Kai that characters like Tenshinhan stopped enun-ci-a-ting ev-er-y sy-ll-a-ble like a bad Saturday morning cartoon.
Sabat definitely stopped imitating Drummond and McNeil by the Majin Boo episodes, although he was clearly still finding his footing with both Vegeta and Piccolo. His Piccolo voice was much less gravelly by that point, although there were still occasional slips, and his Vegeta voice in the second half of the arc pretty much made a full transition into sounding deeper and throatier, and without the weird inflections.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:58 pm

NitroEX wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm The art style shift is more understandable for sure, it's part of the reason I personally can't buy Sabat's Z performance in the Saiyan arc. He's deeper sounding than Nappa most of the time which, I just find ridiculous in combination with how he's drawn. In contrast, Sabat's GT Vegeta was an easier pill to swallow.

But in regards to Drummond, I've personally always been able to reconcile that no matter how bulky he's drawn later on, Vegeta's still a short character. Drummond's voice did also noticeably get gruffer in later arcs too so it wasn't exactly the same as the Saiyan arc but I suppose the difference doesn't matter to most.
I'm with you there. Even with the better quality of Sabat's performance in Kai, the voice feels a bit off in the Saiyan saga for that reason, although I prefer it there to in the Remastered dub. I remember not liking what I heard of Drummond in the later arcs, but that's been years since I watched a clip. It's possible I'd feel differently now.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:02 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:58 pm
NitroEX wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm The art style shift is more understandable for sure, it's part of the reason I personally can't buy Sabat's Z performance in the Saiyan arc. He's deeper sounding than Nappa most of the time which, I just find ridiculous in combination with how he's drawn. In contrast, Sabat's GT Vegeta was an easier pill to swallow.

But in regards to Drummond, I've personally always been able to reconcile that no matter how bulky he's drawn later on, Vegeta's still a short character. Drummond's voice did also noticeably get gruffer in later arcs too so it wasn't exactly the same as the Saiyan arc but I suppose the difference doesn't matter to most.
I'm with you there. Even with the better quality of Sabat's performance in Kai, the voice feels a bit off in the Saiyan saga for that reason, although I prefer it there to in the Remastered dub. I remember not liking what I heard of Drummond in the later arcs, but that's been years since I watched a clip. It's possible I'd feel differently now.
Well, let's see!
Mr. Satan's voice is really awkward, but Drummond really captures "evil" Vegeta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHJKbn2zzqk

Likewise, it's obvious that Drummond is a better actor than Sabat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FehGqIZ7vc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szv4jYPmlWo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5nMfhiCnKQ

Makes me want to hear Ocean Kai to hear how the redub fared. Not that the Ocean crew needed time to improve considering they were always professionals, so I don't think it'd be as qualitatively better as the FUNi Kai dub, but hearing them stop treating it like an 80s Saturday morning cartoon and act more naturally, with the original music and a better script, would be great
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:20 am

Yuli Ban wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:02 amMakes me want to hear Ocean Kai to hear how the redub fared. Not that the Ocean crew needed time to improve considering they were always professionals, so I don't think it'd be as qualitatively better as the FUNi Kai dub, but hearing them stop treating it like an 80s Saturday morning cartoon and act more naturally, with the original music and a better script, would be great
Ocean Kai has a replacement score. It's possible a Kikuchi mix was recorded for places like the UK, but I don't think we'll ever see it with the Yamamoto score as I don't think Ocean would be willing to risk any legal ramifications from TOEI. But yeah, I want to see that dub so much, if only because it's unfair to compare the Ocean and Funi casts when we've never heard the former in an uncut dub with the exception of 3 movies.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:06 am

If Lee Tokar’s one audio clip is any indication they didn’t drop the 80s Saturday Morning cartoon vibe either.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Z Funimation's Worst English Dub?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:45 pm

Ah, that's disappointing. Would be terribly ironic if FUNi wound up having a superior Kai dub to Ocean.

I really, honestly wish there was effort put into just one "ultra-pure" English dub that had the most fitting possible voices and script with no music changes. Just a wholesale "what we could have gotten" product. But alas...
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