Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:55 pm

There are many illustration jobs that have similar overworking problems. The "Crunch" work ethic is unethical.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:56 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:51 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:46 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
It's 6 years into the same story. It was long in the tooth. How many long running series don't eventually run into a brick wall? DB had done almost everything you could do. Regardless of the schedule, anyone's going to run out of ideas eventually.
Sure, but that doesn't mean the schedule didn't contribute to his fatigue. That's just human.
I'm sure it didn't help things but every story has a sell by date and DB was reached it by the Freeza battle.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:59 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:55 pm There are many illustration jobs that have similar overworking problems. The "Crunch" work ethic is unethical.
Yeah, work culture is so toxic. Even people with fuck-you money fall into this pitfall because capitalism is always demanding more and that has bled into 99+% of our society.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:02 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:59 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:55 pm There are many illustration jobs that have similar overworking problems. The "Crunch" work ethic is unethical.
Yeah, work culture is so toxic. Even people with fuck-you money fall into this pitfall because capitalism is always demanding more and that has bled into 99+% of our society.
This is BS. Overworking is now a product of capitalism? I wasn't aware that it's only the last few hundred years that people have been overworked. Apparently in feudalism, mercantilism, and whatever form of statism, everyone was well rested and well fed.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:04 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:34 pm I am so sorry if I offend you by saying this but what a crock of shit. I wish you are never under the sort of pressure mangaka are.
What part of what I said is a crock of shit? That they knew going in? Anyone whos worked anything resembling a "real job" knows what its like to be under pressure and/or working 70+ hours a week, week to week. Mom&Pop shops, Chinese stores, hell even pro wrestlers have schedules that are INSANE and yet despite that there are plenty of people who still aspire to get into those fields. Yes the passion fades but it always comes back after some time off, that's natural and really just depends on the person.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:10 pm

This is gonna turn into one of those threads, right?
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:12 pm

Sorry about that.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:16 pm

Ok, that was rude of me and pointlessly so. But it is REALLY unfair what they go through and it shouldnt be normalized.

EDIT: Also it wasnt Julie or me who made this thread political. Nor it was krump, but this sort of cult of work suffering REALLY shouldnt be a thing.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:21 pm

Freeza getting a few power ups that turn the tide aren't inherently lazy or bad writing. It's about raising stakes and reversals of fortune. Generally the more the favor can be stacked in the odds of the villain, the better. The issue is there are too many transformations.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:24 pm

So what exactly is the problem here? Sure "It's not even my final form!" is a meme that DB started, but I'd say this is a positive, when the most iconic forms of every DB villain are their final forms :think:

For instance, Frieza's most iconic look is his Fourth and "Original" form. Cell's most iconic look is his Perfect Form. Super Buu's most iconic form is Buuhan. Broly's most iconic look is his Legendary bulky form. Etc. etc. etc.

In fact, Golden Frieza is literally just Final Form Frieza but with a gold filter on it, because that look for Frieza is just so iconic and beloved.

So is there really a problem with villain transformations when they end up with a better and more iconic look anyway? For example, people often say that Cell looked creepier in his first insectoid form, but it can't be denied that Perfect Cell is far more marketable, popular, iconic, well-known than every other form of Cell...

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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:31 pm

Cell having at least one transformation feels appropriate. Dr. Gero was looking for the perfect killing machine for Son Goku. It was a pretty cool idea that the insubordinate machines ended up being the key to Cell's transformations. Freeza's third form didn't feel necessary for anything, including tension.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:45 pm

Cell was established to have a goal to absorb the Androids. Transforming each time made sense.


Freeza, we got a fair warning from Zarbon that he could transform. The third form was unnecessary and superfluous. Really the same thing could have been established by going from form 2 to his final form.


Majin Boo, I wouldn’t mind the fat form being only his only form but I think Toriyama realized he worked better for a punchline than a final boss. I think if Toriyama had stuck with his original plan of making Gohan the hero Super Boo would have functioned as a final boss. Toriyama realized Gohan wasn’t much of a lead in a martial arts story and did the absorption gimmick to turn the tides on Gohan given how versatile Boo has been established it didn’t seem like an ass pull to me. I would hardly call Bootenks and Boohan “transformations” anyways. The whole “villain absorbs characters and reflects some of their physical characteristics” isn’t an unheard of trope.


Kid Boo felt a little cheap but I guess it made sense that Toriyama didn’t want Goku to fight Super Boo again.

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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:04 pm

The only transformation I truly found lazy and uneccessary was third form Frieza. I get the sense that Toriyama wanted to escalate again but didn't want to give away the main event yet, and that was what we got. Even recycled the angry Gohan sequence. Basically filler.

Everything else felt appropriate - we already knew Cells MO off the bat, so the transformations weren't really plot twists or anything, just further steps in the storyline.
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Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Shintoki » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:49 pm

You could argue the golden saiyan transformation wasn't even necessary for goku to fight freeza, if he copied vegeta's blutz waves ball technique and transformed into an Oozaru. he could have taken down freeza with just the oozaru form mixed with a bit of kaioken swiftly and quickly.

but yeah. like may others have said before me, the story has to be stretched so it meets the schedule under toxic work conditions.
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:51 pm

Shintoki wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:49 pm You could argue the golden saiyan transformation wasn't even necessary for goku to fight freeza, if he copied vegeta's blutz waves ball technique and transformed into an Oozaru. he could have taken down freeza with just the oozaru form mixed with a bit of kaioken swiftly and quickly.
Goku did not have a tail, so he couldn't turn into the Oozaru
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Shintoki » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:20 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:51 pm
Shintoki wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:49 pm You could argue the golden saiyan transformation wasn't even necessary for goku to fight freeza, if he copied vegeta's blutz waves ball technique and transformed into an Oozaru. he could have taken down freeza with just the oozaru form mixed with a bit of kaioken swiftly and quickly.
Goku did not have a tail, so he couldn't turn into the Oozaru
sorry for the confusion, i meant as in he could have been able to if it weren't for said incident rather than he was actually so.
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:47 pm

Kinda amusing that no one has mentioned SSJ3, the form that only beat an opponent one single time and that was because Goku pulled a never-before-seen attack out of his ass which actually makes it worse lol
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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:31 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:47 pm Kinda amusing that no one has mentioned SSJ3, the form that only beat an opponent one single time and that was because Goku pulled a never-before-seen attack out of his ass which actually makes it worse lol
Goku going Super Saiyan 3 set a precedent for Gotenks doing it so it wouldn’t feel like an asspull for Gotenks to unlock it. And Gotenks going Super Saiyan 3 was useful to explain him being on par with Super Boo.


The whole concept of this legendary form having multiple levels is just an innately goofy concept. Kudos for Toriyama for going all out. Granted the joke got overdone by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan



As far as Dragon Fist. They’re martial artist. They’re always developing new techniques. This has been a thing through out the series like Yamuchs’s sokidan or Kuririn’s keinzan. The problem isn’t Goku showing off a brand new technique he developed in the year between Boo being defeated and the events of Dragon Fist Explosion. The problem was the movie sets itself as a Trunks movie with Trunks as the main focus with his brotherly idolization of Tapion and then Goku saves the day because ….reason. It’s like Koyama wanted to make a Trunks movie and then a producer reminded him the movie’s title was “Dragon Fist Explosion! If Son Goku won’t do it who will?”

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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:55 pm

I don't mind Freeza's third form, I just wish it had been utilized better. The point of it was to turn the tide against Piccolo, but we could have spent more time with it. Maybe have Freeza grow giant like during the final transformation, but actually fight everyone in that size. Piccolo could increase his size as well. I think that after a battle like that, one last transformation would be that much more dramatic and suspenseful.

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:24 pm For example, people often say that Cell looked creepier in his first insectoid form, but it can't be denied that Perfect Cell is far more marketable, popular, iconic, well-known than every other form of Cell...
Hmm... I wonder why?... :think:

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Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:57 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:55 pm I don't mind Freeza's third form, I just wish it had been utilized better. The point of it was to turn the tide against Piccolo, but we could have spent more time with it. Maybe have Freeza grow giant like during the final transformation, but actually fight everyone in that size. Piccolo could increase his size as well. I think that after a battle like that, one last transformation would be that much more dramatic and suspenseful.

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:24 pm For example, people often say that Cell looked creepier in his first insectoid form, but it can't be denied that Perfect Cell is far more marketable, popular, iconic, well-known than every other form of Cell...
Hmm... I wonder why?... :think:
Naturally because he becomes, at long last, human-looking. Not necessarily hot (since he is still freaky in how he functions), but normal-looking.

Absorbing 18 did wonders for him :roll:
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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