Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Jord
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:13 am

Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Jord » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:52 am

And they cause the fights to drag on longer than necessary, without using too much effort on the writer's part.

I specifically say most transformations since there are a few exceptions. Noticably, those that have significant downsides.

Look at how organic the fight between Nappa/Vegeta vs Earth flows. It's exciting, back and forth and feels natural. Yes, there are the Oozaru transformations but they don't come out of nowhere and even more importantly, they have significant downsides, namely the tails.
You can see Kaioken as a transformation as well but that one has the downside to wreck the user's body, which it effectively does.

Flash forward and we have Freeza, which is probably the worst offender of this trope.
The fight between Vegeta/Freeza seems to be even ->Transformation aka permanent power up and tides get turned.
The fight between Piccolo/Freeza seems to be even ->Transformation aka permanent power up and tides get turned.
Heck you can include Golden Freeza here as well.

Cell repeats the exact same trope and Buu is even worse.

It seems like every time the heroes have a clear advantage the villain suddenly has another power up/transformation to trump then.
It makes the fights seem lazy and unfair from a writing/reading perspective. Whenever you're stuck, just add a random power up to create artificial tension instead of using clever writing or tactics.

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5102
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:56 am

It took you THIS LONG to figure that out huh?
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:06 am

I have no inherent qualm with the trope It's overused, though.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:23 am

...is there something wrong with this?
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:54 am

I can’t believe a villain becoming more powerful is a useful storytelling technique to heighten the tension!!!!! Whaaaat?

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 am

Even then there's at least some build up to Freeza and Cell's transformations, Zarbon warns Vegeta that Freeza can transform and that was before the Ginyu Force showed and on top of that Freeza himself says to the heroes that he can transform up to 3 times. Then of course we have Cell explaining his purpose to Piccolo in the Android Arc.

Boo was the only one who's changes were pretty random though most of them were executed well enough.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels

Jord
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:13 am

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Jord » Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:45 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:54 am I can’t believe a villain becoming more powerful is a useful storytelling technique to heighten the tension!!!!! Whaaaat?
It's not when it's earned. When it comes out of nowhere it's an ass pull.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:47 am

Jord wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:45 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:54 am I can’t believe a villain becoming more powerful is a useful storytelling technique to heighten the tension!!!!! Whaaaat?
It's not when it's earned. When it comes out of nowhere it's an ass pull.
Can you give examples of coming out of nowhere?

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:50 am

Far be it for me to defend a rich asshole but perhaps the weekly comic release format is inhumane and that inhumanity leads to a lack of creativity because its hard to be creative when you're not sleeping or living a life.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:55 pm

And of course you bring this back to politics.

Or just maybe it's not due to inhumane treatment and just I dunno, if a story goes long enough, it's bound to repeat itself.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:13 pm

I don't think transformations are an inherently lazy story device, even if it became a common one. They were always there to push the story forward in Z. You can make the case that the way in which they were utilized was lazy from time-to-time, but I feel that comes down to execution moreso than the trope itself. The only thing that frustrated me was how lopsided the fights became later on, but other than I don't take issue with the transformations or even the amount of them.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5102
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:14 pm

I have to defend Julie this time around, there is nothing political about admitting how inhumane the whole weekly manga publication is. Many mangaka end up sick or dying.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:22 pm

Anyone who has ever experienced being stuck in a job they hate and being unable to feel relaxed because of their job should, in fact, understand the pain of sleeping four hours a day for ten years while physically laboring 12-20 hours the rest of the day.

The weekly scheduling has literally broken and killed people but fuck them, I guess.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm

Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:13 pm I don't think transformations are an inherently lazy story device, even if it became a common one. They were always there to push the story forward in Z. You can make the case that the way in which they were utilized was lazy from time-to-time, but I feel that comes down to execution moreso than the trope itself. The only thing that frustrated me was how lopsided the fights became later on, but other than I don't take issue with the transformations or even the amount of them.
Funny thing is Cell's transformations only happened at the behest of Toriyama's editor at the time, hell I dare say majority of the Android story played out the way it did to his editor's input.



Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:14 pm I have to defend Julie this time around, there is nothing political about admitting how inhumane the whole weekly manga publication is. Many mangaka end up sick or dying.
Its hectic for sure but it's not like Mangaka aren't aware of what they sign up for, well some aren't I guess but still.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:27 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
Hell, I'm to tired to write a book I have half-way outlined because I work so damn much. Being creative is hard and having to do so under unrealistic conditions like "sleep four hours a day because deadline, deadline, deadline!" Is fucked. Can you imagine the chronic back, arm, wrist, and ass pain Toriyama developed over the years? The mental health issues? Fucked. All of it.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:28 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Funny thing is Cell's transformations only happened at the behest of Toriyama's editor at the time, hell I dare say majority of the Android story played out the way it did to his editor's input.
Good point. Yep, that plus the switching up of villains (from 19 & 20 to 16, 17, 18 to Cell) and the constant shifting of Z Warriors who might defeat Cell (I think).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
Cure Dragon 255
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5102
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:34 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:13 pm I don't think transformations are an inherently lazy story device, even if it became a common one. They were always there to push the story forward in Z. You can make the case that the way in which they were utilized was lazy from time-to-time, but I feel that comes down to execution moreso than the trope itself. The only thing that frustrated me was how lopsided the fights became later on, but other than I don't take issue with the transformations or even the amount of them.
Funny thing is Cell's transformations only happened at the behest of Toriyama's editor at the time, hell I dare say majority of the Android story played out the way it did to his editor's input.



Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:14 pm I have to defend Julie this time around, there is nothing political about admitting how inhumane the whole weekly manga publication is. Many mangaka end up sick or dying.
Its hectic for sure but it's not like Mangaka aren't aware of what they sign up for, well some aren't I guess but still.
I am so sorry if I offend you by saying this but what a crock of shit. I wish you are never under the sort of pressure mangaka are.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:46 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
It's 6 years into the same story. It was long in the tooth. How many long running series don't eventually run into a brick wall? DB had done almost everything you could do. Regardless of the schedule, anyone's going to run out of ideas eventually.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Looking back, most transformations in Z were just lazy ways to extend the fight

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:51 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:46 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:23 pm Yeah, the relentless schedule honestly is a very plausible reason for any lack of motivation or drop in creativity. With Cell and Boo, it was pretty clear Toriyama wasn't writing with the same creative fervor, and I'm a fan of those arcs.
It's 6 years into the same story. It was long in the tooth. How many long running series don't eventually run into a brick wall? DB had done almost everything you could do. Regardless of the schedule, anyone's going to run out of ideas eventually.
Sure, but that doesn't mean the schedule didn't contribute to his fatigue. That's just human. The two things (long-running story and intense, hectic schedule) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

Post Reply