Is Goku a static character?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Is Goku a static character?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:26 pm

A static character refers to someone who remains more or less the same person by the end of a story as they were at the beginning of it, with very little in terms of character development. Does Goku fit that description?

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:37 pm

I know Totally Not Mark made a video on Goku being a "flat" character that was pretty interesting, although it's been awhile since I've watched it.

I would say that Goku is a character who overall has the same spirit that we had when we first meet him in the story...but in OG Dragon Ball and early Z, it still feels like he undergoes a lot of development. Through Muten Roshi, he learns more about the world and about what it means to be a martial artist, something which forever remains a core of the series. He learns more about the larger world in the RRA saga. In the Piccolo Daimao arc, we see how he copes with the loss of his best friend. And then 3 years later after spiritual training, he comes back as a (at the time) fully-realized martial artist, and he also seems to have a different value for life since he spares Piccolo Jr. In the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, he learns about his Saiyan heritage and even comes to embrace it in battle. By the very end of Z, Goku wears blue gi to symbolize his growth from student to master.

We do see Goku learn, grow, and undergo some change, but the core essence of who he is remains the same throughout the series. However, he is a character who impacts everyone who encounters him. Bulma, Yamcha, Oolong, Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, and even Freeza to a point (in Super) are different people from how they started from knowing Goku. Heck, even Roshi starts taking his training seriously again after fighting Goku in the 21st. So in a lot of ways, the development and growth of the other characters into better people/stronger fighters (or different people, in Freeza's case) is a testament to who Goku is.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:37 pm

Not really no. In the beginning of the story he can’t even comprehend other characters sex drive. By the Boo saga he’s using Old Kaioshin’s perversion to his advantage.

Also Goku early on had no issue killing opponents. By the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament he’s sparing enemies either out of pity or hoping for a rematch. Goku was pretty irritated when Vegeta killed the Ginyu Force, I doubt younger Goku would have gave two shits.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:37 pm

He certainly becomes smarter and more perceptive, but I'd say his priorities and outlook are more or less the same in the 21st TB arc as they were at the end of Z.

That being sad, Goku becomes so much more of a plot device during the Z portion and disengaged from the plot that it's hard to really tell at times. I actually feel like the 23rd TB saw a big leap in Goku's character that kinda just fades away after a while.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:51 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:37 pm Not really no. In the beginning of the story he can’t even comprehend other characters sex drive. By the Boo saga he’s using Old Kaioshin’s perversion to his advantage.

Also Goku early on had no issue killing opponents. By the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament he’s sparing enemies either out of pity or hoping for a rematch. Goku was pretty irritated when Vegeta killed the Ginyu Force, I doubt younger Goku would have gave two shits.
Goku still kills people after the 23rd Budokai, so I don’t see how him being against Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force qualifies as character development, unless someone wants to subscribe to that fan-theory that Kami taught him to value life.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:57 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:51 pm

Goku still kills people after the 23rd Budokai, so I don’t see how him being against Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force qualifies as character development, unless someone wants to subscribe to that fan-theory that Kami taught him to value life.
Not counting the movies he only kills like two villain after the 23rd Budokai. Both of whom were pretty mindless beast.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:05 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:57 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:51 pm

Goku still kills people after the 23rd Budokai, so I don’t see how him being against Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force qualifies as character development, unless someone wants to subscribe to that fan-theory that Kami taught him to value life.
Not counting the movies he only kills like two villain after the 23rd Budokai. Both of whom were pretty mindless beast.
Aside from killing Yakon, who is sentient enough to be able to speak, he also doesn’t voice any objections to Vegeta killing Pui Pui.

Edit: We also can’t forget that he urged Gohan to kill Cell.
Last edited by WittyUsername on Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
SuperSaiyaManZ94
I Live Here
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: Alabama, USA

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:06 pm

Goku changed significantly in most aspects as the story progressed, for when Bulma met him on that fateful day while driving on Mount Paozu he'd been living sheltered away in isolation from greater society (basically since Gohan died) and didn't know about girls or vehicles or much else beyond the simple hermit-esque life he'd led up to that point. The resulting adventure they embarked on eventually helped him grow over time, though his core character remained more or less the same in an adult with child like wonder he still was different compared to when he first started out at the beginning of the series.
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:06 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:57 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:51 pm

Goku still kills people after the 23rd Budokai, so I don’t see how him being against Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force qualifies as character development, unless someone wants to subscribe to that fan-theory that Kami taught him to value life.
Not counting the movies he only kills like two villain after the 23rd Budokai. Both of whom were pretty mindless beast.
And even then, he wishes for Kid Boo to come back reformed as a better person/one who can control his power better.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:08 pm

While it's true that Goku did go from killing his enemies to sparing them over the course of the RRA and Freeza arcs, I felt that he may have had another change in the Cell and Buu sagas. He intended to kill the androids (after sparing them for three years :roll:) and Cell, and he killed Yakon and (kid) Buu. Perhaps he learned that killing opponents is sometimes necessary, or maybe he became a tad more laid-back about death after having two experiences with it.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
DBZAOTA482
Banned
Posts: 6995
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:21 pm

No, Goku's character changes but it's much more subtle than other characters. He becomes wiser and more perspective over the course of the series. He went from not able to tell the difference between a male and female to exploiting Elder Kaioshin's perversion. He also went from killing weaker enemies without second thought to sparing them whenever possible.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:53 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:08 pm While it's true that Goku did go from killing his enemies to sparing them over the course of the RRA and Freeza arcs, I felt that he may have had another change in the Cell and Buu sagas. He intended to kill the androids (after sparing them for three years :roll:) and Cell, and he killed Yakon and (kid) Buu. Perhaps he learned that killing opponents is sometimes necessary, or maybe he became a tad more laid-back about death after having two experiences with it.
That's a very astute observation. However I'd still say his attitude about killing by Cell/Boo was much different than early on in Dragon Ball. Early on he killed without a second thought or without considering another solution. When Goku killed in Z, it was usually when there was no other way to negotiate (like with Cell, whom he planned to kill, and Boo). It was more of a conscious action due to necessity (like you suggested) rather than an afterthought.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
Saiya6Cit
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:53 am
Location: MEXICO
Contact:

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:37 am

Yes.

I always liked seing Goku as a sort of Forest Gump, some kind of person that is capable to function among the "normal" people but himself is very special. This is not precisely bad. I blame it on the hit on his head. We will never get to know the true Kakarot and that is kind of saddening however the fact that he got rid of his alien evil side has been what allowed Goku to elevate his Ki and learn techniques otherwise impossible for a saiyan. Goku is the perfect heroe and close to a god.

He does not go through as much character growth as vegeta, piccolo, gohan or even krillin, but he does not need to. Goku is there to get stronger and save earth/universe. Goku was the first shonen hero to become a father and not even that changed his essence.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:40 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:08 pm While it's true that Goku did go from killing his enemies to sparing them over the course of the RRA and Freeza arcs, I felt that he may have had another change in the Cell and Buu sagas. He intended to kill the androids (after sparing them for three years :roll:) and Cell, and he killed Yakon and (kid) Buu. Perhaps he learned that killing opponents is sometimes necessary, or maybe he became a tad more laid-back about death after having two experiences with it.
I'd say Frieza trying to attack Earth after he let him off the hook AGAIN changed his outlook. He even said in his conversation with Trunks that he should've made sure he really finished Frieza off for good instead of pulling his punch on that last blast since he proved incapable of reason.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:06 pm

I can’t say I care much for the interpretation that Goku’s outlook on killing softened as an adult. Yeah, Goku kills significantly fewer people as an adult compared to when he was a child, and he does call out Vegeta for killing the Ginyu Force, but there’s never any concrete indication in the story that this is a result of character growth. If it is, that would mean that Goku’s growth pretty much gets undone after Freeza, since he goes out of his way to urge Gohan to kill Cell, and doesn’t seem to mind it when Vegeta kills Pui Pui, on top of killing Yakon.

It’s always been a popular fan theory that Goku became more averse to killing after his training with Kami, but that wouldn’t make any sense, considering that Kami trained him specifically so he could kill Piccolo. Why would Kami go out of his way to teach Goku the importance of life, if he wanted him to kill Piccolo? Now that I think about it, FUNimation may have contributed to this belief among fans, since both the Saban dub and the UUE dub changed Goku’s reason for letting Vegeta go into an act of mercy, rather than a simple desire for a rematch.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:15 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:06 pm I can’t say I care much for the interpretation that Goku’s outlook on killing softened as an adult. Yeah, Goku kills significantly fewer people as an adult compared to when he was a child, and he does call out Vegeta for killing the Ginyu Force, but there’s never any concrete indication in the story that this is a result of character growth. If it is, that would mean that Goku’s growth pretty much gets undone after Freeza, since he goes out of his way to urge Gohan to kill Cell, and doesn’t seem to mind it when Vegeta kills Pui Pui, on top of killing Yakon.

It’s always been a popular fan theory that Goku became more averse to killing after his training with Kami, but that wouldn’t make any sense, considering that Kami trained him specifically so he could kill Piccolo. Why would Kami go out of his way to teach Goku the importance of life, if he wanted him to kill Piccolo? Now that I think about it, FUNimation may have contributed to this belief among fans, since both the Saban dub and the UUE dub changed Goku’s reason for letting Vegeta go into an act of mercy, rather than a simple desire for a rematch.
I don't know if "softened" is the correct word, but you'd still be hard pressed to say his stance on it didn't evolve. He didn't want Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force because he had them far outmatched, and they had already been dealt with; on the flip side, it's hard for me seeing Kid Goku not killing the Ginyu Force without even considering sparing them. Even that doesn't necessarily show he's averse to killing, it just shows that when it's unnecessary he's not a component for it. And while you're right that Goku spared Vegeta because of wanting an eventual re-match, he also knew Vegeta at that point was too weak to want to continue the fight, so the Earth was no longer in immediate danger (so it still wasn't "mercy," but at that moment the threat had ceased). Killing Cell was necessary, as Cell was impossible to negotiate with and was going to destroy the planet eventually. Killing Boo was necessary. Even killing Yakon and Pui Pui was necessary for where the characters were trying to get to.

So no, I don't think Goku is averse to killing or that he softened on killing. But when there's no reason for it, he doesn't favor the option. This is a far contrast to him destroying Red Ribbon Army soldiers left and right without a care, despite him far outmatching them in power. And while it may have been necessary to kill King Piccolo, Goku was motivated primarily by revenge, something we really never see from him again (since he even chose to spare Freeza). I don't even know that Kami taught him to value life necessarily, I just think Goku gained a deeper spiritual understanding during his training with Kami. Imho it's not that much a stretch to believe, as it doesn't really contradict any behavior we see from Goku later on.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
Cursed Lemon
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1377
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Location, Location
Contact:

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:23 pm

Well he was an idiot, then he got a little more grounded as time went on, then he went back to being an idiot.
Special Beam Cannon!

(゚Д゚)σ 弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌⊃

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:59 pm

I think the case of Freeza, he was going to spare him because Goku was dominating the fight at that point. When he fought Piccolo either time, he survived by the skin of his teeth both times. So no, that popular fan theory that training with Kami instilled greater degree of mercy in him is just a fan theory.

Goku is mostly static. He's a little more worldly as the story goes on (e.g., he doesn't need to pat people's crotches to tell their sex) but I don't think he grows all that much. That isn't a knock, either. It's not a hard and fast rule of fiction that main characters need to change.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

MyVisionity
Banned
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:37 pm

Goku's not a cold blooded murderer like Vegeta. That's why he called him out against the Ginyu. Killing as a result of battle on the other hand, he has no problem with.

Young Goku is also not a murderer. The Red Ribbon kills were done in the heat of battle, and usually against aircrafts and mecha, not people directly. Also, this was during the gag-heavy era of DB, where villains getting killed was not supposed to be treated especially serious. It can't really be held against Goku's character the same way.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Goku a static character?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:21 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:37 pm Goku's not a cold blooded murderer like Vegeta. That's why he called him out against the Ginyu. Killing as a result of battle on the other hand, he has no problem with.

Young Goku is also not a murderer. The Red Ribbon kills were done in the heat of battle, and usually against aircrafts and mecha, not people directly. Also, this was during the gag-heavy era of DB, where villains getting killed was not supposed to be treated especially serious. It can't really be held against Goku's character the same way.
I'm sorry, but just because it was done for gag purposes and because it was against mecha and aircrafts doesn't mean Goku wasn't a killing machine. The tone being lighter doesn't change the acts themselves, it just means they're not meant to be taken seriously, especially as they were against cartoonish bad guys. Hence why Goku killing was never mentioned as a character flaw he needed to change.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

Post Reply