GT vs Super

[Majin Buu]

They aren't fans of Uub, they are fans of an idea. He doesn't have much of a personality.

You've made this point before and I always have the same reply: That doesn't mean the writers couldn't have fleshed out one for him. That just strikes me as a lazy excuse to do little with him.

And I don't think any writer is obligated to move forward with Uub. Gotenks and Gohan at different points were supposed to take that spot and failed. This could just be another example of that. Pan taking this "role" is far more satisfying. You keep misunderstanding his role in the narrative. His primary function isn't to give Goku a successor. He's not a superhero passing on his mantle. That's a tertiary concern for Goku. What he is is a sparing partner.

Again, I'm not saying Uub needed to be the hero or the new main character like people say about Gohan or Gotenks (And I'm on record as not being a "less Goku in my Dragon Ball please" type fan), just simply make him more of a presence in the story. I don't think that's a lot to ask for.

I keep wondering why people latch onto "Goku's successor" as if it's that kind of story. What exactly is he supposed to take over? Is his role to be Earth's protector? Because that's not Goku's role. If that were, why introduce him at the last minute?

Because it's an element Toriyama bothered to incorporate with the character, an element that I think justifies him being more present in a post-manga plot.

Lastly, I didn't think I had to make it explicit, but I thought it was quite clear that I was stating MY opinion. Hence the I statement.

And I was stating how your opinion comes off to me.

[sunsetshimmer]

Even Trunks, despite initially being billed as one of the three main characters, got pushed to the sidelines after they returned to Earth.

That's bigger issue than lack of Uub to me. I wish we got more Uub sure, but throwing away Trunks is something i still don't get.
I mean he was infected on Earth so it's okay and he actually had badass rescue scene when Baby tried to kill Pan. I don't mind his role in Super 17 arc for most of time either. But lack of his presence was really noticable in last arc. I think he should be fighting dragons along with Goku and Pan.

For the people who hate it when Goku gets all the spotlight, DBS would probably be preferable to GT

It's funny because despite Goku getting all the spotlight in GT he doesn't really do that much on his own and wouldn't beat a single main villain without others helping him. Against every of 3 main villains, someone saved his life in near death scenario at least once.

[ABED]

They aren't fans of Uub, they are fans of an idea. He doesn't have much of a personality.

You've made this point before and I always have the same reply: That doesn't mean the writers couldn't have fleshed out one for him. That just strikes me as a lazy excuse to do little with him.

And I don't think any writer is obligated to move forward with Uub. Gotenks and Gohan at different points were supposed to take that spot and failed. This could just be another example of that. Pan taking this "role" is far more satisfying. You keep misunderstanding his role in the narrative. His primary function isn't to give Goku a successor. He's not a superhero passing on his mantle. That's a tertiary concern for Goku. What he is is a sparing partner.

Again, I'm not saying Uub needed to be the hero or the new main character like people say about Gohan or Gotenks (And I'm on record as not being a "less Goku in my Dragon Ball please" type fan), just simply make him more of a presence in the story. I don't think that's a lot to ask for.

I keep wondering why people latch onto "Goku's successor" as if it's that kind of story. What exactly is he supposed to take over? Is his role to be Earth's protector? Because that's not Goku's role. If that were, why introduce him at the last minute?

Because it's an element Toriyama bothered to incorporate with the character, an element that I think justifies him being more present in a post-manga plot.

Lastly, I didn't think I had to make it explicit, but I thought it was quite clear that I was stating MY opinion. Hence the I statement.

It's not a lot to ask for BUT FOR ME (because apparently me stating MY opinion about how apathetic I am towards Uub comes across to you as stating it as some objective fact) I don't care for the whole successor angle. He's on Earth during the Baby arc and then helps out towards the end. I am okay with that. I prefer the story go with a trio of characters I find interesting with a fun dynamic. I enjoy it far more than making good on some promise to make him the protector of Earth or whatever mantle Goku is said to have.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I don’t think Oob needed to be the main character of GT, but he could’ve been more significant than he was. Of course, the show in general gave practically everyone outside of Goku and Pan the shaft. Even Trunks, despite initially being billed as one of the three main characters, got pushed to the sidelines after they returned to Earth.

For the people who hate it when Goku gets all the spotlight, DBS would probably be preferable to GT. Vegeta gets nearly the same amount of focus as Goku, and the other characters get their time to shine as well.

You know, I agree on Trunks. A lot of people disregard GT Trunks because he isn't Future Trunks, but I like that he's got his own unique personality and a far different one from when he was a kid. I was really enjoying his role right up until they returned to Earth and he was suddenly sort of dropped.

As for the larger issue of Goku get all the glory and other characters getting the shaft in GT, while in Super other characters get "shine," I'm of two minds here. On one hand, I've made it no secret that I'm a huge fan of the non-Saiyan characters in Dragon Ball, even down to some of the non-fighting characters. Prior to Super, I sometimes expressed frustration with their lack of prominence in the Boo saga and GT. But now...honestly I find that their "shine" in Super often feels pretty artificial and unearned. And even when it's pretty cool, like Krillin's mini-PTSD arc, it doesn't lead anywhere meaningful. It's not that I expected Krillin to be a TOP finalist, but it wouldn't have taken much to make him slightly more impactful in the TOP, even if you wanted to give him a comical elimination. Tien was even worse, and Yamcha may as well have been left out of the show. Yamcha is meant to be a punchline without being a "literal" punchline, so for me Super's meta approach to him quickly wore thin. I find that ultimately, I prefer the "weaker" characters being phased out of the main cast (like in Boo and GT) to this artificial build-up. I don't have an issue with GT focusing heavily on Goku because it's his "last hurrah" chronologically in the story at this point, and he's the central character, and I like Vegeta taking more of a backseat. GT followed fully on Vegeta conceding to Goku being number 1 and being content with it, while Super has Vegeta still wanting to be #1 for different reasons, not directly competing with Goku, and also being a family man like in GT. Both approaches are fine, but I like how GT fully committed to the idea from the Boo arc to show Vegeta no longer has the urge to be the strongest. Furthermore, I do actually like how Super utilized characters like 17 and 18, as well as Bulma.

[Hellspawn28]

I like Super way more than I did with GT. I was so let down by GT that I remember I refuse to admit that it was bad for a while back in the early 2000s. Super is a fun show that has Toriyama finger prints on it while GT didn't. GT give Piccolo, Vegeta, and other characters things to do other than be plot devices. There is more original ideas that they try to do in GT unlike in Super. Super did rehash Piccolo Daimao with Moro, but at least they try to do something different with it in my opinion.

[MyVisionity]

Super as a series is very artificial, so it's no surprise that the way it treats its characters feels just as fake.

GT, with all of its absurdities and "just go with it" attitude, at least felt organic. Not enough to be a credible continuation of the series, but organic all the same. It makes sense that characters who aren't Goku and Vegeta would fade into the background. That was the direction that started in Z and is realized in the Boo saga.

If GT had been a greater attempt at continuing on with the story, then it would make more sense to see new characters like Oob and Pan supporting Goku, rather than using the old ones.

However, GT was not so much about covering new ground as it was about celebrating old ground. Pilaf back, Chibi Goku back, DB hunt back, outer space back, Tsufuru back, Oozaru back, Jinzoningen back, etc etc. It's all really just a "greatest hits" series under the guise of a continuation, meant to memorialize the series much like the 10th anniversary movie, before calling it quits.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

If GT had been a greater attempt at continuing on with the story, then it would make more sense to see new characters like Oob and Pan supporting Goku, rather than using the old ones.

However, GT was not so much about covering new ground as it was about celebrating old ground. Pilaf back, Chibi Goku back, DB hunt back, outer space back, Tsufuru back, Oozaru back, Jinzoningen back, etc etc. It's all really just a "greatest hits" series under the guise of a continuation, meant to memorialize the series much like the 10th anniversary movie, before calling it quits.

This is a good point, although I feel like you could say the same for a lot of elements of Super being a "greatest hits" as well for Z in particular. The difference is that Super doesn't seem to have a clear ending in sight, whereas GT was meant to be a grand send-off. I'm still fine with Trunks as a major role over Oob because (like with Gohan) it means we get to see him as an adult. I actually wish GT had done more with Goten as well, as I really like his persona in GT.

[nhienphan2808]

To me Super is Dragon Ball, in character dynamic and themes, just more derpy and silly, and not very good. GT is not Dragon Ball. I would take bad DB over not DB anyday.

[MyVisionity]

I agree with the above to an extent. Although I'm not sure if I would take bad DB over non-DB. Especially in a revival era.

[jamiljamtheman]

What makes GT “not Dragon Ball”? That is an interesting take, and its interesting to me since GT was my major introduction to Dragon Ball.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

What makes GT “not Dragon Ball”? That is an interesting take, and its interesting to me since GT was my major introduction to Dragon Ball.

I was going to ask this as well. I'm not putting down anyone's opinion, just curious for more elaboration on this take. I wouldn't call GT great Dragon Ball or even necessarily good Dragon Ball...but it still feels like Dragon Ball to me ultimately. Even if it's half-baked Dragon Ball lol.

[LoganForkHands73]

"It really makes you feeeeeeeel like a Dragon Ball GT."

-- IGN

[MyVisionity]

I guess you could call GT a combination of half-assed DB and non-DB.

The increased focus on love and family are very non-DB in my view.

There's hardly anything about training or getting stronger.

The BGM sounds very non-DB to me, as well as the opening and ending themes.

The half-assed points are more obvious so I won't go into those.

[nhienphan2808]

Gt tries to pay tribute to early OG DB, the adventure part of it. But early DB, the part where everybody embarks on this Grand Tour to get the Dragon Balls, takes up only the first 2 volumes when Toriyama just wanted to parody Journey to the West. That's it. Right after that from then on DB has been and was all about fighting and becoming stronger. Goku decides on this motivation pretty much right after Pilaf (even when he decides to "adventure" with Bulma that's he wanting to get strong like Grandpa Gohan) It's not about the adventures anymore. The Namek arc opens with a journey of sorts, but it skips the adventure part entirely and went straight to the fighting.

Not to say GT has no fighting aspects and Z or Super has no plot no flow, it's just even in the Super 17 or Baby Saga it's dominated by the adventure theme, it took second place, while it has been the MAIN theme since volume 3 of the manga. GT is more like JoJo than Dragon Ball, inadequate comparison but yknow, adventure and stuff.

As Super keeps the theme of fighting and getting stronger as the forefront, it feels more like Dragon Ball.

[jamiljamtheman]

Ah I can see where you’re coming from with this. I don’t necessarily agree with it, because GT is still a show about battles, transformations, and saving the world/galaxy, through and through. The journey helps set up and provide context for the battles that follow.

It doesn’t take too long before Goku encounters the likes of Ledgic, Luud, Doll Taki, Muki Muki, and eventually General Rilldo and Baby. And eventually, he passes his limits out of necessity and gains a new transformation.

Then after the Baby saga is done, the show stays more focused on fighting than adventure or anything else—for better or worse.

[sunsetshimmer]

it's just even in the Super 17 or Baby Saga it's dominated by the adventure theme

Where did you have adventures in Super 17 arc?
Baby arc also had almost no adventures except for first few episodes when Goku and gang were still in space. After Baby landed on Earth it became pretty much typical DBZ.

[Hellspawn28]

GT's plot holes bother me way more than the ones in Super. The Black Star Dragon Balls still make my head hurt.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Fair points, but the adventure aesthetic was pretty much dropped once the Baby arc hit into high gear. It kind of went back to the Z formula. Weirdly enough though, the things you guys say make GT "not Dragon Ball" are actually the things that draw me closer to the series. It certainly could have been executed a lot better, but I enjoy the more increased focus on friends and family since it's meant to cap off the series. It makes sense that it would lean further into sentimentality. The fights are pretty dull though, I'll give you that, and for a follow-up to s series that became rooted in martial arts, that is a serious problem. I love the GT soundtrack and score because of how different it is from DB and Z, and I just enjoy the tracks themselves. Even if it didn't entirely pay off, I enjoy the series having a completely different tone and flavor. Yet to me, it never strayed so far off to where it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. I can appreciate it as an experiment at making an ending following Toriyama's original story.

[nhienphan2808]

Fair points, but the adventure aesthetic was pretty much dropped once the Baby arc hit into high gear. It kind of went back to the Z formula. Weirdly enough though, the things you guys say make GT "not Dragon Ball" are actually the things that draw me closer to the series. It certainly could have been executed a lot better, but I enjoy the more increased focus on friends and family since it's meant to cap off the series. It makes sense that it would lean further into sentimentality. The fights are pretty dull though, I'll give you that, and for a follow-up to s series that became rooted in martial arts, that is a serious problem. I love the GT soundtrack and score because of how different it is from DB and Z, and I just enjoy the tracks themselves. Even if it didn't entirely pay off, I enjoy the series having a completely different tone and flavor. Yet to me, it never strayed so far off to where it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. I can appreciate it as an experiment at making an ending following Toriyama's original story.

I can see your point. I know one popular and FAIR negative criticism of Z is that it has no good flow and story and focused too much on fighting and that's why some say OG Dragon Ball is better where there's still a story to it and everything is tied together smoothly. But to me, there's a difference between a good story and a good Dragon ball story. And if i want a good story with adventure and drama MAIN elements. i would look to JoJo and not Dragon Ball.

For those that asked about Super 17 Saga, I think the difference is while it's true that it's mainly fighting, only Goku is "fighting" in it. He is like very far above everyone else, removed from the themes that others set, which is not "fighting", merely "adventuring". In Z and Super, while he is also the hero of the day, he is not so far "removed" from others. Others would be as much fighters as he is for that one arc. There are more heroic characters like Trunks and Gohan, but It's about fun and games and the sense of competition for all of them in Z/Super. The talk that GT Goku is too OP is valid. He was the only "fighter" in "adventure" -ing GT. And there was no feeling that he's getting stronger. He just saves the day because he's by default the strongest. That's why even with "defeating a main strong guy" in Super 17, it seems more like JoJo to me than Dragon Ball.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I can see your point. I know one popular and FAIR negative criticism of Z is that it has no good flow and story and focused too much on fighting and that's why some say OG Dragon Ball is better where there's still a story to it and everything is tied together smoothly. But to me, there's a difference between a good story and a good Dragon ball story. And if i want a good story with adventure and drama MAIN elements. i would look to JoJo and not Dragon Ball.

For those that asked about Super 17 Saga, I think the difference is while it's true that it's mainly fighting, only Goku is "fighting" in it. He is like very far above everyone else, removed from the themes that others set, which is not "fighting", merely "adventuring". In Z and Super, while he is also the hero of the day, he is not so far "removed" from others. Others would be as much fighters as he is for that one arc. There are more heroic characters like Trunks and Gohan, but It's about fun and games and the sense of competition for all of them in Z/Super. The talk that GT Goku is too OP is valid. He was the only "fighter" in "adventure" -ing GT. And there was no feeling that he's getting stronger. He just saves the say because he's by default the strongest. That's why even with "defeating a main strong guy" in Super 17, it seems more like JoJo to me than Dragon Ball.

I can definitely understand your points even if I don't fully agree. Because I view GT as the end of Goku's journey, I find the massive power gap between him and the others to be pretty plausible, considering his personality, where he is as of EoZ and all his continued training, and with how Vegeta is more laid back in GT. I would still wager that even though the other characters show up in Super more regularly, other than Vegeta (and then Frieza, 17, and somewhat Gohan), it still feels like Goku is FAR above the rest. But I get what you mean in that they still get to be in on the action, it's just that for me it's not handled that much better than in GT because (aside from the exceptions I named) they're kind of just there. It's not as if they have any impact on the outcomes of fights when they join in.

While I understand Trunks and Goten not being much of fighters following EoZ, I definitely feel GT could have developed Pan's strength more. I wouldn't even mind if Goku and Pan were the only two characters whose power we witnessed growing, and if the core of GT was more definitively about a grandfather-granddaughter bond, with Goku training her. I understand the "Goku OP" criticism of GT, but over time that has become less and less of a negative for me when I view it as the end of his journey...and probably the closest thing to an ending we'll have for awhile.

For me, the biggest overall sin of GT is the dull fights. The only one I remember enjoying the fight choreography for was Gohan vs Goten...although even that, I'm not sure if it was the actual fight choreography or the scenario I enjoyed more. It's not an exclusive criticism of GT, as even the Z anime has some fights that aren't that interesting or well choreographed, but in GT it's the norm rather than the exception.