GT vs Super

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Skar
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Skar » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:51 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:08 pmSo actually Jiren is an extremely original character conceptually, being the complete opposite of Goku, who challenges Goku's views on friendship and strength.
I think only original in the sense that I never expected to see that type of antagonist in DB. I haven't seen much anime but I'm pretty sure the most common antagonist is someone misunderstood and has to learn the value of friendship.

I understand if you think he's a conceptually great antagonist but I think they did the absolute bare minimum for what could be considered an antagonist. I don't really have a problem with Jiren though and I think he serves his purpose for a tournament arc just that he's pretty forgettable.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:22 pm

Original or not, Jiren is just about the least compelling antagonist in all of Dragon Ball. I liked him as a brick wall for Goku to have to overcome, but as a character there's nothing interesting about him to me.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Kappa » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:00 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:09 pm If Black was written by the fans, he'd legit have been a version of Goku who never hit his head and became evil. Or, Goodness, Evil Goten.
Goten Black was a good concept though. Black should've been Goten from U6 or from an unseen timeline. ( that grew up in a bad environment)

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:07 pm

If Black had been written by the fans his subtextual queerness would be textual instead.

And we'd all be happier.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:20 pm

Kappa wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:00 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:09 pm If Black was written by the fans, he'd legit have been a version of Goku who never hit his head and became evil. Or, Goodness, Evil Goten.
Goten Black was a good concept though. Black should've been Goten from U6 or from an unseen timeline. ( that grew up in a bad environment)
I would have loved if Black had been Goten instead. We had already had an evil Goku before with Turles and technically Ginyu Goku. btw, your avatar is my favorite version of Goten thus far. :)
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:22 pm

I still maintain that Black being the possessed corpse/body of that timeline's dead Goku was way more interesting and less convoluted than what we got.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Kappa » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:31 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:07 pm If Black had been written by the fans his subtextual queerness would be textual instead.

And we'd all be happier.
Yeah, I'd love that :thumbup:
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:20 pm
Kappa wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:00 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:09 pm If Black was written by the fans, he'd legit have been a version of Goku who never hit his head and became evil. Or, Goodness, Evil Goten.
Goten Black was a good concept though. Black should've been Goten from U6 or from an unseen timeline. ( that grew up in a bad environment)
I would have loved if Black had been Goten instead. We had already had an evil Goku before with Turles and technically Ginyu Goku. btw, your avatar is my favorite version of Goten thus far. :)
Yeah, it would've been awesome. And same here dude, I love GT Goten :)

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:33 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:22 pm I still maintain that Black being the possessed corpse/body of that timeline's dead Goku was way more interesting and less convoluted than what we got.
I would've been onboard with this, too.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:33 pm

Kappa wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:00 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:09 pm If Black was written by the fans, he'd legit have been a version of Goku who never hit his head and became evil. Or, Goodness, Evil Goten.
Goten Black was a good concept though. Black should've been Goten from U6 or from an unseen timeline. ( that grew up in a bad environment)
I disagree.

To me, Black clearly couldn't be anyone else but a God. His refined mannerisms, the way he talked, how he saw himself as a wise individual who "observed the truth of all things" and mortals as useless creatures, his elegance, politeness, etc. He had to be a God. A Saiyan wouldn't act like that, not even one raised and educated by Zamasu.

"Goten Black" is the same as "Gohan Black"; it sounds cool on paper, because both Goten and Gohan are very important to Trunks, but in reality it wouldn't work with the premise of Black's character (as explained above).
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:20 pm
Kappa wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:00 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:09 pm If Black was written by the fans, he'd legit have been a version of Goku who never hit his head and became evil. Or, Goodness, Evil Goten.
Goten Black was a good concept though. Black should've been Goten from U6 or from an unseen timeline. ( that grew up in a bad environment)
I would have loved if Black had been Goten instead. We had already had an evil Goku before with Turles and technically Ginyu Goku. btw, your avatar is my favorite version of Goten thus far. :)
Not an evil Goku btw. Turles is an evil Goku because he is precisely how Goku would act like if he never hit his head. He'd be a merciless Saiyan conqueror.

Black was not a merciless Saiyan conqueror. He was a righteous God who exterminated humanity, believing it to be justice. Goku, or any Saiyan really, is too stupid to care about justice.
jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:22 pm I still maintain that Black being the possessed corpse/body of that timeline's dead Goku was way more interesting and less convoluted than what we got.
Since Future Goku died many years before the FT arc, shouldn't he be a literal skeleton? Or even worse, just ashes, if the Androids somehow blew up his burial place. So how would Zamasu possess him if there was no body left?

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:41 pm

The Future Trunks arc had a good idea in the form of an evil Kaioshin who is motivated by a misguided sense of “justice,” but bringing back Future Trunks and giving us an evil Goku with dark clothing felt a little too much like fan fiction concepts. Those were clearly done to give the story more commercial appeal. Same goes with bringing back Vegetto.

Also, the direction they took with Future Mai will always be weird to me. She’s always just been a one-note comic relief minion to a comic relief villain. It’s odd to suddenly turn her into a serious freedom fighter and love interest for Trunks. She could’ve easily been a new character entirely.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:45 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:41 pm Also, the direction they took with Future Mai will always be weird to me. She’s always just been a one-note comic relief minion to a comic relief villain. It’s odd to suddenly turn her into a serious freedom fighter and love interest for Trunks. She could’ve easily been a new character entirely.
That...and the idea that she was a 40-ish-year-old woman in a little girl's body wooing a little boy, unbeknownst to him. :wtf:
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:52 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:41 pm but bringing back Future Trunks
This is excusable because they incorporated Future Trunks into the storyline in a very significant way. Without Trunks and his time travels, there is no arc. As Black states, Trunks disrupting time was one of the main reasons why he hated mortals, and was also the reason why two Zamases from different eras teamed up. It wasn't a cheap cameo, they actually incorporated it into the story and villain's motivation in a very unique and significant way.

I actually love that scene where Black explains why Trunks' time travel is wrong, because they put flashbacks to the Cell arc, reminding people that Trunks indeed disrupted time when he saved Goku, who was supposed to die of a heart illness. It's such a good way to connect everything, DBZ and DBS, the Present and Future, it's just a very interesting turn of events. In a way, the seeds for Zamasu's hatred were already planted in the Cell saga, where time was disrupted twice (by Trunks and Cell).
and giving us an evil Goku with dark clothing felt a little too much like fan fiction concepts.
To be fair, most fanfic concepts weren't as elegant and stylish as Black :think:

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:23 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:45 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:41 pm Also, the direction they took with Future Mai will always be weird to me. She’s always just been a one-note comic relief minion to a comic relief villain. It’s odd to suddenly turn her into a serious freedom fighter and love interest for Trunks. She could’ve easily been a new character entirely.
That...and the idea that she was a 40-ish-year-old woman in a little girl's body wooing a little boy, unbeknownst to him. :wtf:
The whole thing with Pilaf gang being kids again, that was never explained in the Super series was super weird… and Mai, the Mai from the OG Dragon Ball being a girlfriend of Trunks… Okayyyy :wtf: I have accepted that, as there was no other of course but it was Super weird!
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:35 pm

Pilaf and the gang, as kids, were introduced in BoG, right? right off the bat, they started as kids without any explanation whatsoever, am I correct?

If it wasn't for that panel Toyo drew about that wish during the android arc, we wouldn't know why they are now kids.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:42 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:35 pm Pilaf and the gang, as kids, were introduced in BoG, right? right off the bat, they started as kids without any explanation whatsoever, am I correct?

If it wasn't for that panel Toyo drew about that wish during the android arc, we wouldn't know why they are now kids.
I am pretty sure one of the trio made a comment how they used the dragon balls to make themselves kids in the BoG movie
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:21 pm

BoG states that Pilaf used the Dragon Balls to wish that him, Mai and Shu would become young again, and Shenlong made them kids (or babies, according to the manga) as a result, which wasn’t what Pilaf had in mind. Of course, now that I think about it, that doesn’t make much sense. I mean, when Piccolo Daimao wished to regain his youth, he didn’t turn into a child.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:24 am

There was something in that line, that they made the error somehow and yeah, in BOG movie, it was one of the gags and parts of the story, but when you watch Super as standalone series due the BOG being recreated there in horrible fashion, that plot point is completelly missing. But we’ve got stuff like Namekian Book Of Legends uttered by Shenron and everyone is like, yeah, sure, what about the SSJ God? :lol:

Frankly, Super as a series was quite garbage until the Tournament of Power arc. The lowest production standards and even though the first four arcs were solid in main story points and I have liked Zamasu arc to some extent, that going back and forth to the future and past was weird.
I prefer the manga version over this.

I always value Super storywise as being over GT and the true succesor to Z, but it’s pain to watch. On the other hand GT looks and sounds awesome.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Desassina » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:49 pm

This parallel between Toriyama and Cameron explains my own opinion about the subject:

Dragon Ball <=> Terminator
Dragon Ball Z <=> T2: Judgement Day
Dragon Ball GT <=> T3: Rise of the Machines
Dragon Ball Super <=> Terminator Genisys

While GT did not have the same feel due to it being a story without Toriyama - he did make a difference in the newest movies compared to the nineties ones - it did not try to gain ground by appealing to the same continuity, because it did not matter to anyone who just wanted to have more animation in the same style, and without the alternative to make us consider what is canon and what is not, people just followed the previous entries through with this one. Super is the opposite: it's trying to fit in with a production that can't keep up with today's prime time anime and manga by new authors.

Terminator 3 used some of the cinematography that was present in the previous movies, so it felt closer to them in spite of its writing quality and a few continuity problems perceived by fans, which sometimes are not warranted. Genisys had all the publicity of being closer to the originals without delivering.

My vote goes to GT.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:26 pm

Desassina wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:49 pm This parallel between Toriyama and Cameron explains my own opinion about the subject:

Dragon Ball <=> Terminator
Dragon Ball Z <=> T2: Judgement Day
Dragon Ball GT <=> T3: Rise of the Machines
Dragon Ball Super <=> Terminator Genisys

While GT did not have the same feel due to it being a story without Toriyama - he did make a difference in the newest movies compared to the nineties ones - it did not try to gain ground by appealing to the same continuity, because it did not matter to anyone who just wanted to have more animation in the same style, and without the alternative to make us consider what is canon and what is not, people just followed the previous entries through with this one. Super is the opposite: it's trying to fit in with a production that can't keep up with today's prime time anime and manga by new authors.

Terminator 3 used some of the cinematography that was present in the previous movies, so it felt closer to them in spite of its writing quality and a few continuity problems perceived by fans, which sometimes are not warranted. Genisys had all the publicity of being closer to the originals without delivering.

My vote goes to GT.
That's an extremely apt analogy. :clap:
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:39 pm

Really? Super feels much closer in spirit to the original than GT ever did.
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