GT vs Super

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am

In terms of presentation (ie. art style, animation style, hand-painted cels), Dragon Ball GT feels more in-line with Dragon Ball Z, although that has to do with it being made on the tail-end of Z's original run when that style was predominant. But some of the people who prefer GT to Super, or who just appreciate GT at all, will usually cite the art style being more "old-school" as something they like about it.

From a "fun" standpoint, along with the bright colors, costume design, action, and overall energy, Super feels more in-line with Dragon Ball Z (and maybe Dragon Ball in general). And the music screams Dragon Ball moreso than GT's, perhaps.

I think where GT feels more "authentic" to some is that (apart from its similarities I mentioned above) it's operating under the original understanding that there were 10 years of peace after the defeat of Majin Boo. So everything about the original story is intact and unchanged, and GT functions as a pure continuation/side-quest to it. Super has been filling up a good chunk of that time skip with antagonists much more powerful than Boo, God forms, multiversal tournaments...so with this in mind, it fundamentally changes how EoZ is viewed, as it no longer is following what was originally perceived as peacetime. It's been a widespread notion that (as a result of Super) EoZ is somehow being retconned. I'm not sure about a total retcon, but we've already elements "updated" like Oob in the Toyataro manga, to better match what Super's been doing. With GT, there were elements that naturally followed over from EoZ, like Golden Oozaru and then SSJ4 being the final Saiyan transformations following the previous strongest form, SSJ3, or the ideas that overusing the Dragon Balls were disrupting world order. And ultimately it was an ending to Goku's journey, cash grab side-story or not. Super is more "fun" like Z, but it's still not clear that the series has any goal aside from Goku and Vegeta becoming more and more godlike. Unlike the original manga, it doesn't really justify it's existence.

I'm not saying one approach is better or worse than the other; it all comes down to preference. I'm not even sure I'd appreciate "GT doing something different" if not for Super feeling more fun and energetic like Z. So, regarding the earlier analogy someone made, I might say they're both Terminator 3.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Desassina » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:17 am

That was a good elaboration. Congrats! I just wanted to clear up something: my comparison used the Dragon Ball Super anime series, which is what I consider inferior to GT as a production, but not as a collection of concepts and designs that you can pick apart, because they were much better used in the movies and the manga. It's fair to consider the finished product against GT instead of a still ongoing storyline.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Saiya6Cit » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:18 pm

Boy am I arriving late to this but I still get the chance to say what I wanted to say.

I know DBGT is a defective product but I like it a lot because of the music and character designs, I also like starwars and I find the space lore very appealing. I love trunks, I love Pan and I like Goku, seing all three together was entertaining for me.

In order to avoid writing too long, I will straight up tell you the main reason why I dislike Super:
They did not take the End of DBZ into account when they planned for the show and tome that was a complete lack of respect to both the creator and the fans. They ended up changing the dates of birth of Pan and Bra and looks of many characters when the the hand of Toriyama had told otherwise. But we know toriyama never loved DB the way we do, so... I am not really surprised of the fact that if the very own author does nothing, how come could we the fans have a saying on what gets to be cannon and what is not..

The animation is cheap, errors have been pointed out many times and the characters are out of character not folllowing the character development from DBZ Majin Saga (cough* vegeta cough* cough*)

why did not they created a new anime, with new characters instead of doing that to goku and vegeta?


I don't hate super because I accept that thanks to that Dragon ball is still relevant and selling merchandise, but that's all it is to me.

once more dragon ball fandom is dividing into three:

1) the cult fans= nostalgic people who watched DB on TV as it was being first aired and that know and accept GT as part of what Toriyama was involved in, as the ORIGINAL work.

2) the new fans= people that watched Kai or DB super as their first encounter with DB and became a fan of the series, they would accept stuff not created by Toriyama.

3) the gamefans= people who is involved with dragon ball mostly cause they either play videogames or cardgames.

In all three there is people who has read the manga and who hasn't.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:49 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 am In terms of presentation (ie. art style, animation style, hand-painted cels), Dragon Ball GT feels more in-line with Dragon Ball Z, although that has to do with it being made on the tail-end of Z's original run when that style was predominant. But some of the people who prefer GT to Super, or who just appreciate GT at all, will usually cite the art style being more "old-school" as something they like about it.

From a "fun" standpoint, along with the bright colors, costume design, action, and overall energy, Super feels more in-line with Dragon Ball Z (and maybe Dragon Ball in general). And the music screams Dragon Ball moreso than GT's, perhaps.

I think where GT feels more "authentic" to some is that (apart from its similarities I mentioned above) it's operating under the original understanding that there were 10 years of peace after the defeat of Majin Boo. So everything about the original story is intact and unchanged, and GT functions as a pure continuation/side-quest to it. Super has been filling up a good chunk of that time skip with antagonists much more powerful than Boo, God forms, multiversal tournaments...so with this in mind, it fundamentally changes how EoZ is viewed, as it no longer is following what was originally perceived as peacetime. It's been a widespread notion that (as a result of Super) EoZ is somehow being retconned. I'm not sure about a total retcon, but we've already elements "updated" like Oob in the Toyataro manga, to better match what Super's been doing. With GT, there were elements that naturally followed over from EoZ, like Golden Oozaru and then SSJ4 being the final Saiyan transformations following the previous strongest form, SSJ3, or the ideas that overusing the Dragon Balls were disrupting world order. And ultimately it was an ending to Goku's journey, cash grab side-story or not. Super is more "fun" like Z, but it's still not clear that the series has any goal aside from Goku and Vegeta becoming more and more godlike. Unlike the original manga, it doesn't really justify it's existence.

I'm not saying one approach is better or worse than the other; it all comes down to preference. I'm not even sure I'd appreciate "GT doing something different" if not for Super feeling more fun and energetic like Z. So, regarding the earlier analogy someone made, I might say they're both Terminator 3.
With the recent direction of Super, can't help but feel that keeping all the battles and stakes confined to U7 increasingly damages the "years of peace" ending of the original manga. While some earlier arcs had high stakes, the fact that they mostly took place away from Earth meant that post-Buu peacetime could still be upheld if you stretch the definition a bit. Then you have Moro's army rampaging across the universe for months and invading Earth, shortly after Broly's brief rampage, you'd think that would be a major enough conflict worth mentioning, right? I mean, Buu's tantrum lasted a couple days and was mostly confined to Earth, surely Moro would totally upstage him in people's memories... :? It's like saying "Yeah, the world's been totally peaceful after WW1, nothing else worth mentioning happened after that."

(Soz this was originally pasted onto the wrong thread, this is where it should be... this is why I shouldn't have so many tabs open at once, lol)

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:07 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:49 pm With the recent direction of Super, can't help but feel that keeping all the battles and stakes confined to U7 increasingly damages the "years of peace" ending of the original manga. While some earlier arcs had high stakes, the fact that they mostly took place away from Earth meant that post-Buu peacetime could still be upheld if you stretch the definition a bit. Then you have Moro's army rampaging across the universe for months and invading Earth, shortly after Broly's brief rampage, you'd think that would be a major enough conflict worth mentioning, right? I mean, Buu's tantrum lasted a couple days and was mostly confined to Earth, surely Moro would totally upstage him in people's memories... :? It's like saying "Yeah, the world's been totally peaceful after WW1, nothing else worth mentioning happened after that."

(Soz this was originally pasted onto the wrong thread, this is where it should be... this is why I shouldn't have so many tabs open at once, lol)
I think that's why some people find GT easier to "accept;" it doesn't overcrowd the 10-year time-skip with all of these universe-shattering villains, multiverse, etc. and just keeps things pretty simple. It's just something that happens afterward and doesn't require any new understanding of prior events. Super renders the EoZ feeling pretty silly as a finale...which is why they went the route of giving Oob god ki to try to explain why Goku's so impressed by his strength.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:12 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:39 pm Really? Super feels much closer in spirit to the original than GT ever did.
It surprises me when people say that GT feels closer to Toriyama when many people criticize GT for not feeling like it was written by Toriyama. Super has Toriyama's finger prints on it while GT doesn't in my opinion.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:15 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:12 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:39 pm Really? Super feels much closer in spirit to the original than GT ever did.
It surprises me when people say that GT feels closer to Toriyama when many people criticize GT for not feeling like it was written by Toriyama. Super has Toriyama's finger prints on it while GT doesn't in my opinion.
I honestly like GT, but there's a melancholy to it that is absent from Toriyama's work.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:30 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:15 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:12 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:39 pm Really? Super feels much closer in spirit to the original than GT ever did.
It surprises me when people say that GT feels closer to Toriyama when many people criticize GT for not feeling like it was written by Toriyama. Super has Toriyama's finger prints on it while GT doesn't in my opinion.
I honestly like GT, but there's a melancholy to it that is absent from Toriyama's work.
Melancholy is the word I was looking for but couldn't think of. That's very apt. It's a bit of a weird situation for me where I think I appreciate GT for not being Toriyama and not being like Super (as I only watched GT after I had seen all of Super), while I enjoy Super for not being GT and continuing with the fun feeling of Z. Without Super being around, I'm not sure I'd enjoy the melancholy of GT as much as I do currently. I guess I like both for entirely different reasons, but my enjoyment of both is pretty even.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:34 pm

There are aspects of DBS that don’t really feel like Toriyama, at least not classic Toriyama. Then there’s Minus, which feels so far removed from anything Toriyama would make that it’s kind of baffling.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:30 pm

"Melancholy" is an interesting word for... whatever the weird tonal disparity is between GT and the "canon" Dragon Ball stories. It sort of explains why the finale of GT is so effective (of course it should be melancholic! its the end of the story) and why the rest of it just feels so off and wrong. It's missing the humor and irreverence of the original story...

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:02 pm

I wouldn’t say GT is lacking in humor, but it does have some distinct moments that are clearly intended to be sad or emotional. The closest the original manga really came to being like that was when Goku decided to stay dead after Cell was defeated, and even that was eventually undone.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:19 pm

It has humor, but not the same voice. It's hard to copy another artist's voice. It's the same as when a showrunner leaves and someone new takes over, it's almost never quire the same.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:46 pm

I think a big issue I have with GT is how 'safe' it is. It sticks very close to not wanting to upset the 'rules' of Dragon Ball too much. Sure, Piccolo dies and stays dead but that melancholy isn't allowed to really affect the rest of the series too much. Gohan doesn't get a big moment where the loss of a rock spurs on character development. Things are still, mostly, status quo. GT flirts with breaking the rules but never quite does in meaningful ways that lead to new stories.

A big way this shows up, of course, is with Pan. Her development is mostly stillborn throughout the series because the rules are: girls are to be saved by boys and Gokuu gets all the victories. Those two rules are meant to reinforce the patriarchy in the young children who watch Dragon Ball. It's a wonder they ever hired Matsui Aya as their first head writer and an even bigger shame she ultimately had little affect on the series.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:36 am

The music throughout GT conveys melancholy. The music in DB and DBZ emphasized adventure.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:43 pm

Super gives other characters to do things. Gohan had a two part episode where he fights a evil space alien creature without Goku's help which is something that would never happen in GT. Piccolo and Vegeta don't feel like plot devices as well..
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:38 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:19 pm It has humor, but not the same voice. It's hard to copy another artist's voice. It's the same as when a showrunner leaves and someone new takes over, it's almost never quire the same.
Exactly. There are attempts at humor, but they usually don't work, at least not for me. It feels like "generic tropey anime".

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:29 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:43 pm Super gives other characters to do things. Gohan had a two part episode where he fights a evil space alien creature without Goku's help which is something that would never happen in GT. Piccolo and Vegeta don't feel like plot devices as well..
Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo are some of the better examples (Piccolo losing to the bug guy notwithstanding), but for me the way Super uses a lot of the secondary characters is pretty non-noteworthy. I like that GT didn't even pretend they were useful in the story, rather than giving the guise that they're useful just by having them there like Super does.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by MCDaveG » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:30 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:46 pm I think a big issue I have with GT is how 'safe' it is. It sticks very close to not wanting to upset the 'rules' of Dragon Ball too much. Sure, Piccolo dies and stays dead but that melancholy isn't allowed to really affect the rest of the series too much. Gohan doesn't get a big moment where the loss of a rock spurs on character development. Things are still, mostly, status quo. GT flirts with breaking the rules but never quite does in meaningful ways that lead to new stories.

A big way this shows up, of course, is with Pan. Her development is mostly stillborn throughout the series because the rules are: girls are to be saved by boys and Gokuu gets all the victories. Those two rules are meant to reinforce the patriarchy in the young children who watch Dragon Ball. It's a wonder they ever hired Matsui Aya as their first head writer and an even bigger shame she ultimately had little affect on the series.
This! I am fan of strong female characters and always felt, that Chi-Chi was cool up until the marriage, when suddenly in a classic Japanese way, she turns into a totally dedicated housewife, yelling at Goku for laughs. Same thing basically happens with Videl and Pan in GT is this obnoxious teenager, who in comparison to the other characters just barks but doesn't bite. I was so looking forward to her go stronger, maybe turn SSJ, as a kid watching it for the first time.
Probably only strong female characters related to the main bunch is No. 18, but her toughness and not adhering to happy housewife cooking and kids only, is played mostly for laughs as being weird.

Let's say it is an old product for young boys from different era, but that sucks and does not justify anything. Always like that moment of Chi-Chi in two of the early Z movies having some fighting bits, albeit small ones.

Hence I have high hopes for Pan in the upcoming movie and if we will see her more in the future, never to marry and kick ass.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:33 pm

Outside of obvious stand-outs like Bulma, Lunch (to a degree), and Android 18, OG DB+Z didn't do anything noteworthy with female characters either. And even the former two were damsels on certain occasions (well Lunch in a subversion of the trope). I don't feel like that's only a point against GT.

EDIT: Not sure how I forgot Videl, as I'm a big fan. But to me she's more flat and boring in Super than in GT. In GT, she has a more interesting design and bears some semblance to her former feisty personality.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:56 pm

I like Videl in Super because her fierceness doesn't come at the expense of her feminity nor does she feel constantly annoyed with those around her. Albeit, she does not get as many scenes as I would personally wrote for her but she at least avoids the pitfalls of the original comic run.

And also isn't tortured in battle for some reason.

She doesn't have nearly enough scenes in GT.
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