GT vs Super

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:16 pm

The Super 17 arc pretty much exists solely as setup for the Evil Dragons. It’s there so the characters would have a reason to seek out the Dragon Balls.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:23 pm

Super's concepts are extremely underrated.

Since Zamasu was already talked about earlier I'll be brief; Zamasu conceptually (so putting the execution aside, which was also brilliant), completely puts all of GT villains to shame. Zamasu is actually a fully-fleshed character, with a well thought-out story arc, compelling motivations, an entertaining personality, and a clever plan. Conceptually, as stated by Toriyama, Zamasu represents the first time that Dragon Ball has a villain who is not originally evil, and presents a moral dilemma; and indeed Toriyama said that Zamasu was originally good like Shin. So that alone already puts him above all GT villains, by virtue of having moral nuances and depth.

Jiren, for all the shit he gets online, is actually a very complex character conceptually. He serves as a foil for Goku, where Goku got that strong thanks to his friends and bonds, Jiren got that strong by himself, without forming bonds. Which is why he then clashes ideologically with Goku. Because Goku fights not for himself but for others, while Jiren fights only for himself, because he thinks making connections is pointless (since his friends in the end couldn' thelp him defeat the Evil doer).

Broly is also complex conceptually, he is clearly not the rabid monster he was in Z. He is abused and treated like a slave by his father but at the same time he cares about his father because he's the only family he has left; that's why he snaps when Frieza kills Paragus. While Broly in Z was just a complete generic pure evil monster who straight up killed his father.

Meanwhile, even conceptually, Baby is literally Hatchyak from Plan to Eradicate the Saiyan, he's a machine created by the tuffles with the purpose of revenge.

I won't even talk about Super 17 and the Shadow Dragons because, frankly, there's nothing to talk about. I don't have material to work with because they're so bland and generic.

GT fanboys will have to tell me what they see in these GT villains conceptually, because I'm not seeing anything. :wink:

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:58 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:01 pm Super is almost the antithesis of GT, which may be why fans are so divided on the two, because it really doesn’t have that many interesting or ground breaking ideas but at least it’s mostly dumb fun.
The only really interesting idea in DBS was not only rehashed movie story but it was also thrown away right after that. I'm obviously talking about BoG story arc that introduced god ki concept that was simplified to changing colors and having just another power ups in all the next arcs, as almost all of antagonists in Super didn't have anything to do with god ki, except for Toppo and Zamasu. In case of Toppo it had some actual usage, but in case of Zamasu it was completely irrelevant. All of them could've had just regular ki and it wouldn't change anything for that arc. Afterall, Trunks didn't even have god ki and could not only fight them with his completely random new form but also sliced them in half :roll:

Second best idea of Super was introducing multiverses, but just like god ki, it was executed terribly and was simplified to having some fighters at tournaments. Fighters that could've been from U7 and it also wouldn't change anything except for U6 saiyans. They even had opportunity to put Zamasu arc in his own universe, but instead they decided to go for full fanservice and bring back Trunks rehashing entire "future is destroyed so let's stop source of it in the past at least" idea. In the end that arc used god forms and villain from other universe, but didn't really do anything with those concepts.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:14 pm

Super.

I woulda chosen GT due to it having better consistency in the quality of its art and animation, but the films and the manga give Super the edge. That said, when Super was firing on all cylinders; the quality was the best the franchise had been.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:28 pm

I like thar Zamasu nuance and depth is being the generic “I believe I’m morally superior to justify my actions” villain archetype. It wasn’t even done well ffs. How anyone is supposed to find him complex when he’s acting like an arrogant dick with a narcissism complex from the word go is beyond me.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Skar » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:37 am

By modern anime standards, I think Zamasu and Jiren would be considered pretty generic. If you compare them to similar antagonists from other anime, they probably rank at the bottom of the list in terms of complexity. They check off a few of the common tropes but don't really get much deeper than that. Nothing wrong with liking them or thinking they're good antagonists but I think it's going too far to claim they're complex or unique unless it's only comparing them to some of most forgettable antagonists within only DB.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by nhienphan2808 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:32 am

Skar wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:37 am By modern anime standards, I think Zamasu and Jiren would be considered pretty generic. If you compare them to similar antagonists from other anime, they probably rank at the bottom of the list in terms of complexity. They check off a few of the common tropes but don't really get much deeper than that. Nothing wrong with liking them or thinking they're good antagonists but I think it's going too far to claim they're complex or unique unless it's only comparing them to some of most forgettable antagonists within only DB.
DB/Z is very simple even in 80s anime standards, and everything else is of second theme to fighting, so i'd say villains like that are ok in DB standards.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:40 am

Comparing other villains to DB villains is pointless because the DB series is special since it never took itself too seriously. That's why the evil emperor of the universe wanted to use the Dragon Ball to grow a little taller.

In the context of DB, Zamasu and Jiren are both extremely complex conceptually.

"Hatchyak 2.0" is not complex.

"Evil android machine 2.0" is not complex.

"Generic pure evil dragon that wants to destroy the universe because that's what generic pure evil dragons do" is not complex.

And I would argue that Zamasu is complex even compared to other anime villains. Just because he doesn't have a sad childhood (*cue sad violin music*) doesn't mean he's more generic or cliché. In fact, I'd argue he's more unique precisely because he didn't have a sad childhood, which admittedly can't be said for Jiren.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:28 pm I like thar Zamasu nuance and depth is being the generic “I believe I’m morally superior to justify my actions” villain archetype. It wasn’t even done well ffs. How anyone is supposed to find him complex when he’s acting like an arrogant dick with a narcissism complex from the word go is beyond me.
That's literally EVERY morally grey villain, it's the point. They justify their actions because they think they are morally right.

We have word of God (Toriyama) saying that this is Zamasu's core as a character, so conceptually he is this. If you want to argue that he was executed bad, I'd still disagree completely. It's shown several times that Zamasu is trying to understand how to do the right thing, he has a literal philosophical debate with Gowasu on Good, Evil, and Justice.

Also, a morally grey villain doesn't have to be humble. So I don't see how Zamasu being narcissistic makes him generic at all. If anything, it makes him more unique; because unlike literally every other villain here, he could only trust himself. Literally.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:44 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:28 pm I like thar Zamasu nuance and depth is being the generic “I believe I’m morally superior to justify my actions” villain archetype. It wasn’t even done well ffs. How anyone is supposed to find him complex when he’s acting like an arrogant dick with a narcissism complex from the word go is beyond me.
He's as evil as every other villain in DB. Others just didn't make any dumb excuses. And he mostly repeats a single word. Complexity at its finest lol.
I'm just watching newest Shaman King anime and Zamasu could take example from Asakura Hao how to make a villain that lost faith in humanity and became evil for actual reason, but somehow didn't turn into generic "i'll kill everyone" villain.
Skar wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:37 am By modern anime standards, I think Zamasu and Jiren would be considered pretty generic. If you compare them to similar antagonists from other anime, they probably rank at the bottom of the list in terms of complexity. They check off a few of the common tropes but don't really get much deeper than that. Nothing wrong with liking them or thinking they're good antagonists but I think it's going too far to claim they're complex or unique unless it's only comparing them to some of most forgettable antagonists within only DB.
Jiren is the most generic antagonist DB could come with, especially for final arc. He has boring design, no personality, no techniques. The most memorable thing about that guy is that Goku reached new form against him and that speaks for itself. Calling that guy "complex" in any way and calling GT villains generic in comparison is that kind of bad joke you tell to people but no one laughs.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:59 am

As a side note, to claim that Zamasu is only about one word is borderline trolling. It's the equivalent of saying that Dragon Ball has no story and it's just fights.

What some people do online is unironically use memes against Super antagonists. So Zamasu repeating the word "ningen" in every episode has become a meme because it's hilarious; but the moment someone unironically tries to use this against Zamasu, it's when there is a problem. This is the moment when people are just doing a disservice to the writers.

Same thing for Jiren. He has a very stoic personality and him saying "owari da" over and over again has become a recurring meme, but his character is obviously far more than just that. Jiren is actually a very complex antagonist, at least conceptually, since he represents a mirror of Goku, and what Goku could have been like if he wasn't surrounded by comrades (I might go into this more later). I don't doubt that Jiren has a ton of fanboys, but I'd wager it's mostly because he was presented as this unstoppable wall of force, when in reality he's actually a pretty compelling character, at least on paper. He doesn't have just a huge power level but he also has a clear story arc. He starts off as a heartless warrior who believes strength is absolute, but eventually he starts fighting for others (see Toppo's speech and how it made him get one final power-up), and in the end he grows as a character and gets over his childhood trauma (that made him think strength is absolute).

GT villains even conceptually are genuinely trash. Legit tell me what character arc Super 17 and Omega Shenron have, I'll wait.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:58 am

Skar wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:37 am By modern anime standards, I think Zamasu and Jiren would be considered pretty generic. If you compare them to similar antagonists from other anime, they probably rank at the bottom of the list in terms of complexity. They check off a few of the common tropes but don't really get much deeper than that. Nothing wrong with liking them or thinking they're good antagonists but I think it's going too far to claim they're complex or unique unless it's only comparing them to some of most forgettable antagonists within only DB.
Jiren is generic by any standards.

I wouldn’t call Zamasu generic but we’ve seen his character a bajillion times and we’ve seen it done better. I won’t lie I enjoyed most of the Zamasu arc until it refused to end but it didn’t offer anything new. And I would still rank it below every arc in Super that isn’t a rehash of Z movie 14 and 15

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:56 pm

Why exactly are we comparing Dragon Ball antagonists to antagonists from other anime? It's just doing a massive disservice to these characters and the writers of Super.

Of course there might be better-written antagonists in one of the countless other stories that exist out there; but this doesn't change the fact that Zamasu and Jiren, as Dragon Ball antagonists, are absolutely unique in what they are and do. For the reasons already stated.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by capsulecorp » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:30 pm

The problem with Zamasu is that he's incredibly tropey... it just happens to be tropes that we haven't seen in Dragon Ball for awhile. He's narcissistic, egotistic, scheming and he talks a lot. Of course, some of the most beloved enemies in DB are also tropey, but they usually bring something new to the table, or offer a twist that makes them feel unique or exciting, but Zamasu just sort of feels like a character ripped from a different manga dropped into the world of Dragon Ball.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:48 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:30 pm The problem with Zamasu is that he's incredibly tropey... it just happens to be tropes that we haven't seen in Dragon Ball for awhile. He's narcissistic, egotistic, scheming and he talks a lot. Of course, some of the most beloved enemies in DB are also tropey, but they usually bring something new to the table, or offer a twist that makes them feel unique or exciting, but Zamasu just sort of feels like a character ripped from a different manga dropped into the world of Dragon Ball.
In what way did Zamasu not bring something new to the table? He is the first DB villain to undergo a negative arc and the only one not defeated by any of the Dragon fighters.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:09 pm

If Black was written by the fans, he'd legit have been a version of Goku who never hit his head and became evil. Or, Goodness, Evil Goten.

"Black = Zamasu" in itself is unique and original as a backstory. A rebellious God who burns so much with jealousy and envy, that he goes as far as to steal the body of a Saiyan for himself.

He is also unique compared to the other body-stealers, like Ginyu and Baby, because he starts becoming more and more like his host body. For instance, when he refers to his enemies using food terminology (calling Vegeta an "appetizer" and Goku the "main course); or when he makes it his goal to reach ultimate strength, whereas his counterpart laughs at that idea and is interested in Immortality instead. He even starts having fun in battles and remains composed when he's backed into a corner, because he enjoys a good challenge. Whereas Future and even Fused Zamasu are the opposite; not being influenced by Goku's love for fighting, they don't care about challenges or anything like that, and start losing their composure when things don't go their way.

So the very basis of Goku Black/Zamasu (him being a rebellious Kai who stole a Saiyan's body) is in itself original. Way more original than most theories back then anyway :roll:

Some people online shit on Black because he's very similar to Deviant Art "Evil Goku" fanarts; but at the same time, how many fanfic "Evil Gokus" were actually not Goku at all, but a jealous Supreme Kai?

That's why I disagree with the people who say "Oh but Super is the opposite of GT, lame ideas but good execution". Super is both good ideas and good execution, because if you ask me, the idea behind Goku Black or even Jiren (someone who is meant to mirror Goku as a fighter) are very original and creative.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:25 pm

An evil mirror to the protagonist is hardly new even for DB.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by Skar » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:25 pm

nhienphan2808 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:32 amDB/Z is very simple even in 80s anime standards, and everything else is of second theme to fighting, so i'd say villains like that are ok in DB standards.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that and I've liked most DB antagonists. I just think it's disingenuous to claim Zamasu and Jiren are complex when it's the bare minimum surface level complexity that you can find from these types of antagonists.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by capsulecorp » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:40 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:48 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:30 pm The problem with Zamasu is that he's incredibly tropey... it just happens to be tropes that we haven't seen in Dragon Ball for awhile. He's narcissistic, egotistic, scheming and he talks a lot. Of course, some of the most beloved enemies in DB are also tropey, but they usually bring something new to the table, or offer a twist that makes them feel unique or exciting, but Zamasu just sort of feels like a character ripped from a different manga dropped into the world of Dragon Ball.
In what way did Zamasu not bring something new to the table? He is the first DB villain to undergo a negative arc and the only one not defeated by any of the Dragon fighters.
Sorry yeah the way I worded that was not as clear as it should have been.

I don't mean "new" in the sense that he includes new elements to Dragon Ball as a story, I meant "new" as in feeling surprising or fresh or intriguing to the audience. Characters like Freeza or Buu or Beerus are obviously indebted to various past works but manage to feel completely unexpected and exciting when they appear.

For me, Zamasu is also obviously indebted to past works, but he feels overly familiar and tropey, probably because the works he's inspired by are more contemporary, or more mainstream, or overrepresented or something. Tonally he doesn't quite fit into the world comfortably and it's hard to articulate why, but I'm doing my best :D I think when people say he feels like a 90s era DBZ movie character, this is sort of what they mean.

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Re: GT vs Super

Post by BeaBumby » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:02 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:23 pm Which is why he then clashes ideologically with Goku. Because Goku fights not for himself but for others, while Jiren fights only for himself
WAITWAITWAIT

I thought Goku's whole THING was that he was a selfish fighter, that he only fought to better himself. Not really to protect his friends.
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Re: GT vs Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:08 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:02 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:23 pm Which is why he then clashes ideologically with Goku. Because Goku fights not for himself but for others, while Jiren fights only for himself
WAITWAITWAIT

I thought Goku's whole THING was that he was a selfish fighter, that he only fought to better himself. Not really to protect his friends.
False.

It is stated by Master Roshi during the fight with Jiren (ep. 130) that Goku got that far only thanks to his friends, and Goku later on tells Jiren that he won't forgive anyone who hurts his friends.

Meanwhile Jiren, being the antithesis of Goku, got that far only thanks to himself, and thinks that bonds are useless. That's why he tries to kill Goku's [eliminated] friends on the stands. To prove that bonds are easily broken.

So actually Jiren is an extremely original character conceptually, being the complete opposite of Goku, who challenges Goku's views on friendship and strength.

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