GT vs Super

[nhienphan2808]

I can definitely understand your points even if I don't fully agree. Because I view GT as the end of Goku's journey, I find the massive power gap between him and the others to be pretty plausible, considering his personality, where he is as of EoZ and all his continued training, and with how Vegeta is more laid back in GT. I would still wager that even though the other characters show up in Super more regularly, other than Vegeta (and then Frieza, 17, and somewhat Gohan), it still feels like Goku is FAR above the rest. But I get what you mean in that they still get to be in on the action, it's just that for me it's not handled that much better than in GT because (aside from the exceptions I named) they're kind of just there. It's not as if they have any impact on the outcomes of fights when they join in.

They don't "need" to get in on the action, or even impact the story heavily. What i mean is in Super they are IN the fighting narrative. They don't fight a lot, and only 3 of them is useful, and it was not done very well. but they are still fighters in Super when they are used. They are involved in the drama, they build a fighting story with Goku. Vegeta is Goku's classmate in the Champa's arc, Trunks' father in the Black arc, and a friend all around in the Tournament Arc to push Goku. Frieza is a shocking fighting partner, a point of tension and surprise. 17 is an old friend that wins the tournament by fighting. Same dynamics in Z when everybody BUILT a FIGHTING story with Goku as long as they are useful. Say for example , Yamcha or even Bulma, the "adventure" characters in DB, faded out because they are not fighters, but now Goku had Gohan or Vegeta to fight with him, and so on, till Super with Frieza, Jiren and Goku.

Whereas in GT, no one of them help Goku' narative AT ALL. GT Goku is "removed" from everyone else, not just far above them in power. And it's because they are all the same : not fighting anymore. You could make Goten, a non-fighter by this point, job the same way as GT Vegeta for GT Goku to save him now, and the idea that Vegeta is the same as Goten in how much he's into fighting anymore, is just..... sad. Vegeta with a son who's the main character in Black arc >>>>> Goku-copy and useless SSJ4 Vegeta. That's what i mean by: GT is a Jojo adventure show that "removed" everyone else from OP fighter Goku.

[super michael]

GT character I think the gag was funny and they didn't go overboard, which didn't make the characters annoying and brainless. DBS anime they went overboard with the gag, which made their characters annoying and brainless.

Characters develop in GT, which the same can't be said for DBS anime, they actually are worse than their DB/DBZ.

There is adventure in GT, which is something DBS lacks.

GT feels more like Toriyama writing, while DBS anime I don't know what Toei was thinking.

GT had blood in battle, while DBS there was hardly any blood. Even when Freeza did death beam on Gohan in RoF, there was no blood at all. In DBZ Freeza death beam caused a lot of blood.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

They don't "need" to get in on the action, or even impact the story heavily. What i mean is in Super they are IN the fighting narrative. They don't fight a lot, and only 3 of them is useful, and it was not done very well. but they are still fighters in Super when they are used. They are involved in the drama, they build a fighting story with Goku. Vegeta is Goku's classmate in the Champa's arc, Trunks' father in the Black arc, and a friend all around in the Tournament Arc to push Goku. Frieza is a shocking fighting partner, a point of tension and surprise. 17 is an old friend that wins the tournament by fighting. Same dynamics in Z when everybody BUILT a FIGHTING story with Goku as long as they are useful. Say for example , Yamcha or even Bulma, the "adventure" characters in DB, faded out because they are not fighters, but now Goku had Gohan or Vegeta to fight with him, and so on, till Super with Frieza, Jiren and Goku.

Whereas in GT, no one of them help Goku' narative AT ALL. GT Goku is "removed" from everyone else, not just far above them in power. And it's because they are all the same : not fighting anymore. You could make Goten, a non-fighter by this point, job the same way as GT Vegeta for GT Goku to save him now, and the idea that Vegeta is the same as Goten in how much he's into fighting anymore, is just..... sad. Vegeta with a son who's the main character in Black arc >>>>> Goku-copy and useless SSJ4 Vegeta. That's what i mean by: GT is a Jojo adventure show that "removed" everyone else from OP fighter Goku.

I understood what you meant, I'm just saying I didn't really need Piccolo (my favorite character) or the humans (whom I'm a fan of) to be a part of the fighting narrative if they were constantly going to be made jokes out of. And Vegeta, Frieza, and 17 were characters I mentioned as positives.

Honestly, I like how Vegeta is used in GT because it shows he's evolved into a fully different guy since Boo-EoZ. It went with the idea that his desire to train was tied to being better than Goku and that only, which make sense because Goku is unique amongst his race with constantly pushing his limits. Vegeta didn't start doing that until after his first fight with Goku, as he was a naturally elite warrior. His character in GT makes perfect sense to me. Whereas in Super they've made him like Goku in that he wants to get stronger for himself (while still being stronger than Goku), which works fine because he's no longer obsessed with being stronger than Goku. But I'd say Vegeta's attitude toward his training is much more akin to Super than in anything else.

As for Goten, how he's used in GT for me is leagues better than anything in Super, same for present Trunks. In Super they don't even age or fight. GT at least went with the notion that they aren't fighters, but it gave them unique older personalities.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

But I'd say Vegeta's attitude toward his training is much more akin to Super than in anything else.

I meant to say "Vegeta's attitude toward his training is much more akin to Goku in Super than in anything else."

[The Monkey King]

The highs of Dragon Ball Super (Ultra Instinct, Goku Black, DBS Broly) far outweigh any aspect of DBGT.
I never feel the need to go back and re-watch any part of DBGT because it's all aggressively mediocre, with not one stand out fight scene to its name.

For that DBS is the superior product in my eyes.

Also in ways the DBS and GT overlap, Super's version was done miles better.

Goku meeting with Freeza once again in the afterlife, was much more enjoyable in Super with them haggling the terms of Freeza's assistance in the ToP while in GT it was just a stupid gag battle with Cell. #17's reappearance in Super was much better than it was in GT with him actually playing a pivotal role in the arc and not just fusing with himself to become a super boring villain.
Also Goku Black >>> Baby Vegeta, in terms of screen presence alone Goku Black was a much more entertaining antagonist to watch. Gogeta's fight against Broly is objectively leagues beyond Gogeta vs Shenron in all aspects.

Not to mention, DBGT gave us the return of Kid Goku... who asked for that? GT isn't called Goku Time for nothing, everyone else is useless except for Goku. Even his hyped up apprentice in the form of Uub amounts to nothing.
Even when there were 7 evil dragons, enough antagonists for each Z-Fighter to get some shine, nope couldn't have that! Goku solos them all.
Meanwhile in Super gave many characters time to shine especially surrounding the Tournament of Power, Gohan and Piccolo vs the Universe 6 Namekians is one of the most underrated fights in the franchise, everyone calls #17 the MVP of the tournament, Freeza's recruitment battle against Goku was amazing, Vegeta vs Broly is one of the best fights he's ever had.

There's a reason why GT is half the length of Super, it's just underwhelming and boring, if that wasn't the case it would've run on for longer.

[Hellspawn28]

GT character I think the gag was funny and they didn't go overboard, which didn't make the characters annoying and brainless.

Characters develop in GT, which the same can't be said for DBS anime, they actually are worse than their DB/DBZ.

GT feels more like Toriyama writing, while DBS anime I don't know what Toei was thinking.

GT had blood in battle, while DBS there was hardly any blood. Even when Freeza did death beam on Gohan in RoF, there was no blood at all. In DBZ Freeza death beam caused a lot of blood.

I'm surprise to see someone say those things about GT because GT was mostly criticized for everything that you mention. GT was mostly hated for not feeling it like it was written by Toriyama. The Super 17 saga feels like something that Toriyama would never write in my opinion. GT also hated on for having bad humor in the Black Star Dragon Ball hunt and the other characters besides Goku & Pan doing nothing besides job or be plot devices (Vegeta & Piccolo come to mind).

GT barely had any blood outside Vegeta getting stab by the One Star Shadow Dragon. I do remember GT being criticize for being more lighthearted than DBZ.

[TheMikado]

The short answer is "the advent of Super has only deepened my appreciation for GT."

And this is all that needs to be said

[MCDaveG]

Super, the anime version for me was and still is that kind of continuation that I would love as a kid back then, as GT is kinda lackluster in comparison…

But! GT is to me far better than Moro and Granola arcs in the manga, as it takes some really daring story and design ideas!
My main gripes with GT ever since I saw it for the first time are the “forshadow” Super 17 arc which was quite unnecesary and kinda boring start of thw Shadow Dragons arc, which was brilliant idea. Also, I am probably one of the few who prefer the “story continues” Z ending before the GT’s definitive one, altough it is a good one, but completely destroyed me as a kid! Also, wasted Uub and killing the excitement of the team of Goku, Goten and Trunks right away by getting Pan in and making her one of the most obnoxious character ever.

But Super really paid off and I am kind of dissapointed that it lost the juice after Tournament of Power in my opinion.
I also doubt that the manga continuation will get adapted on screen.

Only thing where GT wins no contest, is the production. The art, the music, leagues over Super, that looks like crap until the Tournament of Power where it starts to look interesting.

[Hellspawn28]

I do think the causal fans like Super more than GT. I see more people that talk about Super more lighty than they do with GT. When GT is brought up, I still see causal fans that are like "Skip GT. Toriyama didn't make it" or "GT sucks. They made Goku into a little kid again".

[DBPirate]

I vastly prefer Super and find it to be the most rewatchable DB anime. Perhaps not the best stories, but when I'm putting Dragon Ball on, it's probably Super. It has its issues, as do aspects of the rest of the series, but they're not glaring enough to be a problem for me. I think Super blended the comedy/character interactions of the original series with the action of Z really well and I loved its additions to the lore.

I can't really get behind the "GT had better ideas" thing. I don't find any of GT's ideas -- Goku turning into a kid for the entire show, SS4, the Black Star Dragon Balls, Super 17 -- particularly interesting. The show just dropping Uub after one episode is also really off-putting to me.

[BeaBumby]

I like elements of both for various reasons. Pan is cute in GT (although gets shafted) and Super has these cool ideas for new characters and a few cool fights. It also has marginally better queer representation than GT, what with it's transphobia and such. It's not a competition.

oh dear what happened in GT?

[sunsetshimmer]

oh dear what happened in GT?

Nothing. Having "better queer representation" is just silly argument to me, especially considering GT was made in kinda different era.
And i don't remember anything transphobic in GT honestly unless guy dressing up as a girl for gag scene is transphobic.

[JulieYBM]

I like elements of both for various reasons. Pan is cute in GT (although gets shafted) and Super has these cool ideas for new characters and a few cool fights. It also has marginally better queer representation than GT, what with it's transphobia and such. It's not a competition.

oh dear what happened in GT?

The Trunks cross-dressing episode and Episode #51. I wrote a thread on Twitter about the latter here: https://twitter.com/JulieYBM/status/136 ... u1HXw&s=19

oh dear what happened in GT?

Nothing. Having "better queer representation" is just silly argument to me, especially considering GT was made in kinda different era.
And i don't remember anything transphobic in GT honestly unless guy dressing up as a girl for gag scene is transphobic.

Telling oppressed people to not demand better "because of the era" can continually be applied. There's no improvement unless we refuse to compromise.

Stop trying to make "Hey, this is insulting, do better" a controversial statement.

[sunsetshimmer]

The Trunks cross-dressing episode and Episode #51. I wrote a thread on Twitter about the latter here: https://twitter.com/JulieYBM/status/136 ... u1HXw&s=19

You just wrote that Oceanus Shenron reverting to her ugly form before death is transphobic and she dies "in shame" because of that even though she reverted to her form because she couldn't keep illusion anymore. And you actually did compare that to...deadnaming, wow Sorry, i can't take any of that seriously. Not to mention Oceanus being trans character was never even mentioned. GT just shown us that she is as ugly as other dragons and her pretty form is just disguise used to trick people + force field. You're overreacting and thinking too much about non-existing issues.

And i fail to see how Trunks dressing as a girl is insulting in any way. OG series did that with Goku. GT made a followup to that and that was only for gag purposes. You can't possibly think that whoever made that idea was like "let's just make fun of trans people in that episode".

[BeaBumby]

I like elements of both for various reasons. Pan is cute in GT (although gets shafted) and Super has these cool ideas for new characters and a few cool fights. It also has marginally better queer representation than GT, what with it's transphobia and such. It's not a competition.

oh dear what happened in GT?

The Trunks cross-dressing episode and Episode #51. I wrote a thread on Twitter about the latter here: https://twitter.com/JulieYBM/status/136 ... u1HXw&s=19

oh dear what happened in GT?

Nothing. Having "better queer representation" is just silly argument to me, especially considering GT was made in kinda different era.
And i don't remember anything transphobic in GT honestly unless guy dressing up as a girl for gag scene is transphobic.

Telling oppressed people to not demand better "because of the era" can continually be applied. There's no improvement unless we refuse to compromise.

Stop trying to make "Hey, this is insulting, do better" a controversial statement.

While that may make me feel kinda bad, I doubt the it was the writers' intent to be transphobic. Perhaps in this case it's just what it means at face value, and it doesn't have any transphobic meaning behind it

[WittyUsername]

Liú Xīng Lóng having a “true form” doesn’t exactly add anything to the episode in question, but it doesn’t really come across as a trans joke. I definitely wouldn’t put it past Toei (or Toriyama) to make a joke like that, especially back in the 90s, but Liú is never referred to as a man. The idea seemed to be that she has a vanity complex, which is why she disguised herself in a more attractive form, rather than her monstrous true form.

[MyVisionity]

Julie is 100% correct. The transphobia is definitely there, in both GT and the first series.

While that may make me feel kinda bad, I doubt the it was the writers' intent to be transphobic. Perhaps in this case it's just what it means at face value, and it doesn't have any transphobic meaning behind it

The writers' intentions are irrelevant. Oppression does not rely upon intent.

Nothing simply means what it is at face value. Especially when it involves things like transphobia and other forms of oppression.

[SupremeKai25]

I vastly prefer Super and find it to be the most rewatchable DB anime. Perhaps not the best stories, but when I'm putting Dragon Ball on, it's probably Super. It has its issues, as do aspects of the rest of the series, but they're not glaring enough to be a problem for me. I think Super blended the comedy/character interactions of the original series with the action of Z really well and I loved its additions to the lore.

I can't really get behind the "GT had better ideas" thing. I don't find any of GT's ideas -- Goku turning into a kid for the entire show, SS4, the Black Star Dragon Balls, Super 17 -- particularly interesting. The show just dropping Uub after one episode is also really off-putting to me.

I agree with you. I genuinely don't know what was so "good" about GT ideas.

The first arc is just an attempt at reproducing the Original DB but in space. Baby is literally a rehash of the villain from Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, his backstory, motivations, and goal are literally identical. Super 17 is a non-character, he's literally nothing. No personality, no backstory, no motivations, no goals, nothing, the most boring and bland villain imaginable. The rest of his arc is just a rehash of the Janemba movie (funny how Toei kept rehashing their movies for GT ). The Shadow Dragons are just trash conceptually, they are all fodder for Goku and the final one is just a generic pure evil monster.

It is poetic that the dragon born from Grandpa Gohan's Dragon Ball is the one that ends up helping Goku, but this doesn't redeem the fact that the other 6 Dragons are genuine trash in terms of villains.

[MasenkoHA]

The first arc is just an attempt at reproducing the Original DB but in space. Baby is literally a rehash of the villain from Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, his backstory, motivations, and goal are literally identical. Super 17 is a non-character, he's literally nothing. No personality, no backstory, no motivations, no goals, nothing, the most boring and bland villain imaginable. The rest of his arc is just a rehash of the Janemba movie (funny how Toei kept rehashing their movies for GT ). The Shadow Dragons are just trash conceptually, they are all fodder for Goku and the final one is just a generic pure evil monster.

It is poetic that the dragon born from Grandpa Gohan's Dragon Ball is the one that ends up helping Goku, but this doesn't redeem the fact that the other 6 Dragons are genuine trash in terms of villains.

Don’t confuse concepts with execution.


Conceptually dragon balls with dire consequences might have been interesting, but yes it ended up being a rehash of the original arc in Dragon Ball (that fans continue to confuse for the entire series…for some reason) but in space and even more boring.


The villains escape from hell was barely a thing in the Janemba movie so doing something more with it could have been at least fun. And hey for being connected to some important characters (18 and Kuririn) 17 was mostly forgotten about after becoming Cell’s tail snack so going back to him could have been interesting…but yeah it was all boring and Super 17 was super generic and even the emotional stakes of 18 having to fight her brother after he killed her husband felt hollow.


And finally the idea of over relying on the dragon balls for a get out of jail free card and show actual consequences could have been a great idea but the shadow dragons were lame villains.


This is what fans mean when they said GT had good ideas but bad execution.


Super is almost the antithesis of GT, which may be why fans are so divided on the two, because it really doesn’t have that many interesting or ground breaking ideas but at least it’s mostly dumb fun.

[PurestEvil]

Super is almost the antithesis of GT, which may be why fans are so divided on the two, because it really doesn’t have that many interesting or ground breaking ideas but at least it’s mostly dumb fun.

Eh, the Zamasu saga was a pretty good idea, and it was executed unsatisfactorily.