Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
TheGreatness25
I Live Here
Posts: 4924
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:09 am

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:59 pm
Aim wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:29 pm
Because I want you to change how you interact with media. Don't like something? Ignore it. Like something? Enjoy it! What does it matter if it falls under a 'canon' when the reality of the situation is that the IP holders often just ignore things they made up previously to create a type of work they want to create in the now?
If Aim is anything like me, then the argument of "Just enjoy what you enjoy!" isn't relevant. I don't think that Aim ever said anywhere that something being non-canon automatically makes it unenjoyable. I know I never said anything like it. The idea of an established canon for me is what part of the story can I pay attention to and know that those events exist in the current direction of the story and which events don't. Me saying that GT isn't canon isn't me saying that I don't enjoy it--it's me saying that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what happened in the series because it doesn't count in the current main story.

Anyway, I didn't want to get all in the weeds over this. I don't particularly care that much, I guess. And to be fair, it's not like I participate in any discussions that warrant such a deep knowledge of the story. I guess I'm curious how the fans who say that there's no canon or everything is canon see things.

User avatar
dva_raza
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:46 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by dva_raza » Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:04 am

...you've got the canon in Toriyama's head (whatever that may be) AND the canon in various Toei employees' heads (whatever that may be). The movies are all canonical in the Toei canon. Even tho they can't happen, the TV episodes contain elements from some of those movies, so...they HAVE to happen, even tho they can't. It's a cartoon for children, so they don't care. Besides, they're already making up story facts only to replace them later on once Toriyama contradicts them in the comic. I think he even contradicts himself sometimes. And that makes it hard to know what's canonical. Whatever's most recent, I guess. I mean, if Toriyama ever DID state the official canon, he would probably make new stuff that contradicts that eventually.

"We all know there’s a definite storyline that we consider to be the main one", you say, but WE aren't the ones who get to decide what's canonical. Tho, of course, we're all allowed our own personal 'headcanons'.

Toriyama Canon(?):
Dr Slump
Jaco the Galactic Patrolman
Dragon Ball Minus
Dragon Ball
Dragon Ball Online
Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods (except for where retconned in Dragon Ball Super)
Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F'
Dragon Ball Super

Toei Canon 1(?):
Dr Slump & Arale - episodes and movies
Dragon Ball (animation) - episodes and movies
Dragon Ball Z - episodes, TV-specials, and movies
Dragon Ball GT - episodes and TV-special

Toei Canon 2(?):
Dr Slump & Arale - episodes and movies
Dragon Ball (animation) - episodes and movies
Dragon Ball Z - episodes, TV-specials, and movies
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods (except for where retconned in Dragon Ball Super [animation])
Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F'
Dragon Ball Super (animation)

I would assume that it's quite possible that some non Toei things could be considered canonical by Toei, since elements from them appear in their own animations. Like how Tarble is mentioned in Battle of the Gods.
Didn't Toriyama directly declare the latest Broly movie to be the first canon movie? (Not sure about this, I read it somewhere)
If he did, I think then there is relevance to the concept of "canon" , otherwise why would the word be used so much when talking about DB?

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:32 am

dva_raza wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:04 amDidn't Toriyama directly declare the latest Broly movie to be the first canon movie?
No, he didn't.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:37 pm

Y'all niggas have overcomplicated the fuck out of this canon debate. To me it's rather simple: anything that Toriyama wrote either in the manga or to accentuate and/or extend the manga, because Toriyama has proven since the original publication that when it comes to the story he's telling, he tends to ignore any other material besides his own and will freely contradict anything else when he feels like it.

And the anime will even adjust accordingly, contradicting itself (ie Vegeta going from beating the shit out of Gohan and leaving and then the next episode ignoring it, or their depictions of Hell zig-zagging) and just expecting the audience to understand that anything that wasn't covered in the manga should just be ignored because this is just a cheap merchandise vehicle anyway and who's even gonna be watching this in 20 years right? The manga is the foundation for everything else in the franchise that sprouts from it. Dassit.

(I also think that just the Super manga is canon, because the anime includes a few things that were unique to the DB/Z anime like Kid Vegeta with bangs and Frog Ginyu still being on Earth. The manga skipped over the movies IIRC and just continues where RoF left off. And on top of that, Toriyama appeared more involved in crafting the manga story and making sure his outline came through. So it's DB Manga-->BoG-->RoF-->DBS Manga)

There doesn't need to be an official statement about what's canon or not because it's not that friggin' hard to figure out.

From what I've always understood for damn near 20 years is that canon and continuity are basically synonymous, but somewhere down the line people started complicating it for no reason because they want to pick and choose what they want to prop up. Who cares?
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:58 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:37 pm Y'all niggas have overcomplicated the fuck out of this canon debate. To me it's rather simple: anything that Toriyama wrote either in the manga or to accentuate and/or extend the manga, because Toriyama has proven since the original publication that when it comes to the story he's telling, he tends to ignore any other material besides his own and will freely contradict anything else when he feels like it.

And the anime will even adjust accordingly, contradicting itself (ie Vegeta going from beating the shit out of Gohan and leaving and then the next episode ignoring it, or their depictions of Hell zig-zagging) and just expecting the audience to understand that anything that wasn't covered in the manga should just be ignored because this is just a cheap merchandise vehicle anyway and who's even gonna be watching this in 20 years right? The manga is the foundation for everything else in the franchise that sprouts from it. Dassit.

(I also think that just the Super manga is canon, because the anime includes a few things that were unique to the DB/Z anime like Kid Vegeta with bangs and Frog Ginyu still being on Earth. The manga skipped over the movies IIRC and just continues where RoF left off. So it's DB Manga-->BoG-->RoF-->Manga)

There doesn't need to be an official statement about what's canon or not because it's not that friggin' hard to figure out.
Just want to co-sign on all this. QFT. 100 percent. Etc etc

From what I've always understood for damn near 20 years is that canon and continuity are basically synonymous, but somewhere down the line people started complicating it for no reason because they want to pick and choose what they want to prop up. Who cares?
Again in agreement. This isn’t even specific to Dragon Ball fandom. Canon and continuity have always been interchangeable in fandom speak. Bordering on distinction without a difference.


Like if you want to split hairs to use your Vegeta beating up Gohan example. It’s technically “non-canon” because Toriyama had nothing to do with it but its part of the anime’s main continuity because it happened in the tv series. But all that means in the grand scheme of things is it doesn’t matter if it got quickly contradicted later on because Toriyama didn’t write it. It didn’t occur in some alternate pocket dimension it’s just something the Toei staff added in to pad for time to fill out a half hour and didn’t impact the source material.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:08 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:37 pm The manga is the foundation for everything else in the franchise that sprouts from it. Dassit.
This is why canon discussions (especially in this fandom) are pretty pointless to begin with (that's not a slight at the OP for asking the question). I may have overcomplicated the definition, but this is still a sentiment I agree with, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter how people want to mix-and-match the anime and everything else. If it fits, it fits, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. The issue is that people are always going to want to bring up the canonical merits of the different anime and all of the post-OG manga material; that's why all these debates and confusion persist to this day. I guess I'm so disassociated from caring about an actual canon in any of the fandoms I'm involved with that it's led me to dismiss the notion altogether, since it has no impact on the actual work itself.

I mean ffs, even Harry Potter fans argue over canon, and that extends to the movies as well, plus Cursed Child and the Fantastic Beasts movies. Yet the only things I'd actually consider clear "canon" in that instance are the original 7 books, as that's where everything else spawned from.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:24 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:58 pm


Like if you want to split hairs to use your Vegeta beating up Gohan example. It’s technically “non-canon” because Toriyama had nothing to do with it but its part of the anime’s main continuity because it happened in the tv series. But all that means in the grand scheme of things is it doesn’t matter if it got quickly contradicted later on because Toriyama didn’t write it. It didn’t occur in some alternate pocket dimension it’s just something the Toei staff added in to pad for time to fill out a half hour and didn’t impact the source material.
Yeah, it's the anime continuity that's more complicated because Toei has its cake and eats it too. They put in stuff to pad the time but also rigidly adhere to the manga at the same time, so they basically just do the Men In Black flash to the audience when something they're covering from the manga contradicts past filler. Other series like Yu-Gi-Oh and Yu Yu Hakusho tended to just roll with the contradictions and form their own details around them to make a more separate (bust mostly similar) continuity.

For Dragon Ball it's like, remember when Goku's old ship projected a fake moon with no moonlight that made Gohan turn into an ape and then Piccolo destroyed it? WELL DON'T.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:36 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:37 pm(I also think that just the Super manga is canon, because the anime includes a few things that were unique to the DB/Z anime like Kid Vegeta with bangs and Frog Ginyu still being on Earth. The manga skipped over the movies IIRC and just continues where RoF left off. And on top of that, Toriyama appeared more involved in crafting the manga story and making sure his outline came through. So it's DB Manga-->BoG-->RoF-->DBS Manga)
Vegeta with bangs also appears in the manga. Toyotaro ignores the "Namekuseijin Book" that was later revealed to be a Toriyama's thing (Toei mentioned this in its continuity).
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:37 pmThere doesn't need to be an official statement about what's canon or not because it's not that friggin' hard to figure out.
So to you, canon would be only what Toriyama does. Noble way to see things. But then please answer these questions:
Grimlock wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:55 pmThen tell me, when Toriyama retires and/or passes away, what's the status of Toei's, Toyotaro's and whoever else was brought on board to come up with stories for Dragon Ball gonna be? Are they all going to be deemed "non-canonical" by default? If so, by whom? What if Toriyama after no longer coming up with stories also doesn't say that only his works are canonical? What if Shueisha also doesn't say a single word about this? What's it gonna be?

And if it's just what Toriyama does is canonical, then Neko Majin and Dragon Ball Online are canonical. Why do we have people ignoring them? Why do we have people saying that the retellings "retconned" the movies when we don't have any information that Toriyama was involved with the retellings and saying that the anime and manga are canonical and the movies aren't?
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:37 pmFrom what I've always understood for damn near 20 years is that canon and continuity are basically synonymous, but somewhere down the line people started complicating it for no reason because they want to pick and choose what they want to prop up.
Random people saying "canonicity and continuity are the same thing" doesn't mean it's a fact that they are synonymous. Use it, it's very helpful.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:07 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:36 pmSo to you, canon would be only what Toriyama does. Noble way to see things. But then please answer these questions:
Why would those questions need to be answered? Who cares what other people do with Dragon Ball whenever Toriyama is not around? They will make stuff up, play in the sandbox, like they always have in his absence. It's completely irrelevant to the reality that Toriyama's stories and respective works follow the same continuity and is overall consistent with itself. That's the canon (in the truest sense of the word), the body of work from which all the adaptations and spin-offs spring out of.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 7478
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:16 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:36 pm
So to you, canon would be only what Toriyama does. Noble way to see things. But then please answer these questions:
Grimlock wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:55 pmThen tell me, when Toriyama retires and/or passes away, what's the status of Toei's, Toyotaro's and whoever else was brought on board to come up with stories for Dragon Ball gonna be? Are they all going to be deemed "non-canonical" by default? If so, by whom? What if Toriyama after no longer coming up with stories also doesn't say that only his works are canonical? What if Shueisha also doesn't say a single word about this? What's it gonna be?

And if it's just what Toriyama does is canonical, then Neko Majin and Dragon Ball Online are canonical. Why do we have people ignoring them? Why do we have people saying that the retellings "retconned" the movies when we don't have any information that Toriyama was involved with the retellings and saying that the anime and manga are canonical and the movies aren't?
Well, that answer is quite simple: Yes. You don't need an official "canon" decreeing to use common sense. The manga is the story. Everything else is a spin-off or an adaptation that are ultimately beholden to the manga and will twist themselves to stay in line with it.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:26 pm

I keep seeing Dragon Ball Online getting mentioned. Unless I’m missing something all he did for that was sign off on a bunch of shit and supply some character designs. But he also did that for Dragon Ball GT.

There’s a big difference between “Toriyama actually wrote this himself or at least the broader concept for Toei/Toyotaro to use”. And “Toriyama agreed to let this thing exist for cash and contributed character designs by request”


So I dunno maybe fans ignore Dragon Ball Online because its supplementary and quite easy to ignore? If I didn’t go on Kanz I’d have no idea the damn thing even existed.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:28 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:07 pmWhy would those questions need to be answered? Who cares what other people do with Dragon Ball whenever Toriyama is not around? They will make stuff up, play in the sandbox, like they always have in his absence. It's completely irrelevant to the reality that Toriyama's stories and respective works follow the same continuity and is overall consistent with itself. That's the canon (in the truest sense of the word), the body of work from which all the adaptations and spin-offs spring out of.
The point is that the "only what Toriyama does is canonical" mentality will be completely destroyed once we get to that point. Toei (and whoever else comes up with stories) will certainly continue where Toriyama left off. Even if they don't come out and say "our stories are canonical to Toriyama's world/manga", no reason to think that they won't think their stories to be as "valid" as Toriyama's. So where would the canonicity be? They don't care about this concept, and neither should the fandom.

People will be entitled to ignore and deem these works "non-canonical", it would be just their mere opinions. But there are also people who will take those stories as canonical, and it would be their opinions. Thus rendering this whole canon stupidity completely meaningless.
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:16 pmWell, that answer is quite simple: Yes. You don't need an official "canon" decreeing to use common sense. The manga is the story. Everything else is a spin-off or an adaptation that are ultimately beholden to the manga and will twist themselves to stay in line with it.
What do you call "common sense"? People can't even agree whether to use Toriyama's interviews as part of the series or not. Some people ignore what Toriyama says, others take what he says into account. What is "common sense"? And to what extent this "common sense" goes? Because there are a number of franchises not binded just by what the author does.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:36 pm

A common thread I'm noticing in these discussions about canon is that people can't seem to ever agree on what canon itself even is. Just about anyone who is disagreeing over what is/isn't canonical has a different definition from the other person. And as long as that's the case, these debates are going to be neverending and will continue to fall on deaf ears on either end.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17541
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:37 pm

The conversation has long set sail from when I last dropped in, but I wanted to follow-up on what I initially said here with a few personal tidbits, and why all of this is ultimately contradictory, even when you make your own rules for yourself.

I don't think it's out there to say "the original version as it was originally printed is the canon." Right? Even if you don't necessarily agree with that viewpoint, you have to at least concede you understand where someone might be coming from? And agree to disagree?

OK, cool. So:

I don't consider the kanzenban ending the canonical ending to the series. I don't care if Toriyama wrote it himself. That's not what premiered in the original printing in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump.

(I would say this is my "Han shot first", but I don't know jack about Star Wars beyond attempting to make that comparison.)

(There's something to be said for "the latest version" being the "canonical" version, but the actual latest version of the manga is a weird amalgamation of both the WJ printing and the updated kanzenban ending!!!)

At the same time, I consider Gohan to be four years old when Raditz shows up, not three. But Mike, you say, in the pages of Weekly Jump it's said that Gohan's three! You're right. I guess my "out" for this is that within the pages of Jump they/Toriyama change this, not just the ancillary media.

It's Dragon Ball. As a wise absolutely canonical version of a man once said, "The only rule is: there are no rules."
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:47 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:37 pm I don't consider the kanzenban ending the canonical ending to the series. I don't care if Toriyama wrote it himself. That's not what premiered in the original printing in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump.

(I would say this is my "Han shot first", but I don't know jack about Star Wars beyond attempting to make that comparison.)
Star Wars is an apt comparison. I make enough Star Wars references so I was holding off but...you have people who will only claim the Original, UNALTERED Trilogy is the true canon. Meanwhile, that's contradictory to everything Lucas himself has said, with his three Special Edition releases. Each one was canon until the next one came out, because that's how it originally happened and it can't just be "erased" because altered versions came along. Plenty of Star Wars fans will maintain that Han shot first until the end of time, myself included. And if we're to apply the same logic to Star Wars as to Dragon Ball, technically everything spawned out of those original versions of the trilogy, so by this logic that's the only true canon regardless of the prequels, sequels, cartoons, spin-offs, books, anything else.... We don't need official word from Lucas himself or Disney/Lucasfilm telling us what is or isn't isn't canon...but then there are people who will make the case that their word on this is authoritative. And technically, both stances are right, neither is wrong.

That's why these canon debates and trying to get everyone to see it one way (on either end) is doomed to fail and pretty much always pointless in every fandom they come up in, at the end of the day. What is "common sense" to one person is not going to be seen that way by the next, and regardless of how "common sense" it is, it's still our own made up criteria ultimately. I'll even say that for my part earlier in this discussion.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:51 pm

Damn, it's almost like canon in pop culture franchises is actually rather opinionated and not something that is set in stone and unquestionable. :crazy:
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:05 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:37 pm The conversation has long set sail from when I last dropped in, but I wanted to follow-up on what I initially said here with a few personal tidbits, and why all of this is ultimately contradictory, even when you make your own rules for yourself.

I don't think it's out there to say "the original version as it was originally printed is the canon." Right? Even if you don't necessarily agree with that viewpoint, you have to at least concede you understand where someone might be coming from? And agree to disagree?

OK, cool. So:

I don't consider the kanzenban ending the canonical ending to the series. I don't care if Toriyama wrote it himself. That's not what premiered in the original printing in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump.

(I would say this is my "Han shot first", but I don't know jack about Star Wars beyond attempting to make that comparison.)

(There's something to be said for "the latest version" being the "canonical" version, but the actual latest version of the manga is a weird amalgamation of both the WJ printing and the updated kanzenban ending!!!)

At the same time, I consider Gohan to be four years old when Raditz shows up, not three. But Mike, you say, in the pages of Weekly Jump it's said that Gohan's three! You're right. I guess my "out" for this is that within the pages of Jump they/Toriyama change this, not just the ancillary media.

It's Dragon Ball. As a wise absolutely canonical versionw of a man once said, "The only rule is: there are no rules."
As for as the manga’s ending I don’t know why the answer isn’t just…they’re both canon. It’s an I prefer the original Weekly Shonen Jump ending vs I prefer the revised Kanzenban ending thing.


For the Gohan age thing I think its just generally accepted Gohan is 4 at the beginning because A. That’s what the anime ran with so it’s more engrained in fans minds B. It’s somewhat easier to accept an articulate 4 year old over an articulate 3 year old. He was originally 3 before reprints is more of a trivia footnote than anything.

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:26 pm

Ultimately, canon is inherently tied to an authority. The question is who do you consider to be the authority in regards to Dragon Ball? Toriyama? Shueisha? Toriyama is the author, so it's only natural that some people (myself included) would relent what is considered canon to the author/artist who created this made up world. And that's what I would say is the real question in regards to the JSAT special. What's the depth of Toriyama's involvement? And how much of it, if at all, does Toriyama take it into account? Like Battle of Gods, Resurrection F and Broly, he's credited for the story, but unlike those movies, he never contributed with any art for it. As far as I'm concerned, the general story of the special is canon in that regard. How much of the special is true to the story Toriyama provided and how much of it looks like what Toriyama envisioned is something that unfortunately we don't have any way of knowing.

pepd
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by pepd » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:38 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:36 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:37 pmThere doesn't need to be an official statement about what's canon or not because it's not that friggin' hard to figure out.
So to you, canon would be only what Toriyama does. Noble way to see things. But then please answer these questions:
Grimlock wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:55 pmThen tell me, when Toriyama retires and/or passes away, what's the status of Toei's, Toyotaro's and whoever else was brought on board to come up with stories for Dragon Ball gonna be? Are they all going to be deemed "non-canonical" by default? If so, by whom? What if Toriyama after no longer coming up with stories also doesn't say that only his works are canonical? What if Shueisha also doesn't say a single word about this? What's it gonna be?

And if it's just what Toriyama does is canonical, then Neko Majin and Dragon Ball Online are canonical. Why do we have people ignoring them? Why do we have people saying that the retellings "retconned" the movies when we don't have any information that Toriyama was involved with the retellings and saying that the anime and manga are canonical and the movies aren't?
if "canon" is Toriyama's story and he didn't make this hypothetical continuation, it would be non-canon, yes. Not according to anyone, but according to its definition (the "canon" definition of this premise and the one is usually implied). It would still be the official continuation of the canon tho.

We can't say Neko Majin is canon because it's a gag manga, and we haven't gotten to that point of the story (like we have with DBS) to know if Toriyama will consider it part of his story or if it was mostly or fully just a gag that didn't really happen (I sure hope most of it is canon).
With DBO, we also haven't gotten to that point of the story to know if it will be considered, properly developed, or completely ignored, and there is also that we don't really know how much involved he was, or if it he made it just for the game.
Random people saying "canonicity and continuity are the same thing" doesn't mean it's a fact that they are synonymous. Use it, it's very helpful.
The dictionaries serve the language and communication, not the other way around, even less an arbitrarily specific definition that, while valid as any other, is not the definition of the word people are referring to (fictional canon). And it means that, because that's the meaning (a valid one) people are giving it.
(Of course you can negate that meaning and stick to other definitions, but then you are stuck with discussing only the definition and not the subject, or having discussions that don't have the key term defined and are therefore meaningless)
VegettoEX wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:37 pm The conversation has long set sail from when I last dropped in, but I wanted to follow-up on what I initially said here with a few personal tidbits, and why all of this is ultimately contradictory, even when you make your own rules for yourself.

I don't think it's out there to say "the original version as it was originally printed is the canon." Right? Even if you don't necessarily agree with that viewpoint, you have to at least concede you understand where someone might be coming from? And agree to disagree?

OK, cool. So:

I don't consider the kanzenban ending the canonical ending to the series. I don't care if Toriyama wrote it himself. That's not what premiered in the original printing in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump.
That is a matter of considering the original publication vs edited version of the story, but it is still on the base of canon being Toriyama's story.
---


Anyway, regarding the tittle, for official/published canon the special is/was at least meant to be canon to the movies, since Vegeta's brother is referenced in the movies (ignored in anime's BoG, but mentioned again in Broly), but for Toriyama canon we just don't know enough production details to know.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:30 am

pepd wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:38 pmif "canon" is Toriyama's story and he didn't make this hypothetical continuation, it would be non-canon, yes. Not according to anyone, but according to its definition (the "canon" definition of this premise and the one is usually implied). It would still be the official continuation of the canon tho.
But for that to be a thing we would first need to live in a reality in which everyone's in agreement that only what Toriyama does is canonical (and it would be even better if we had an official statement saying as much). Since that reality is but a dream, things won't be that easy.

Also, we already have people ignoring/hating works that are supposedly "non-canonical", imagine if we got to that point. Would those people simply stop following Dragon Ball because everything would not be canonical? That would be really sad and moronic...
pepd wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:38 pmWe can't say Neko Majin is canon because it's a gag manga, and we haven't gotten to that point of the story (like we have with DBS) to know if Toriyama will consider it part of his story or if it was mostly or fully just a gag that didn't really happen (I sure hope most of it is canon).
I don't get much the "it's just a gag" argument, but following people's logic, "only what Toriyama does is canonical", then Neko Majin should be considered canonical by default, it is done by Toriyama. Or is there another standard/rule here?
pepd wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:38 pmWith DBO, we also haven't gotten to that point of the story to know if it will be considered, properly developed, or completely ignored, and there is also that we don't really know how much involved he was, or if it he made it just for the game.
Yeah, it's even more tricky here, but we do know Toriyama was involved for five years in its production. It's almost the same amount of time he spent doing Neko Majin. Dragon Ball Online was created and intended to be a sequel tied to the manga. This is important because it separates the game from Dragon Ball GT, which is also meant to be a sequel, but not tied to the manga.

As for Toriyama's role, you have him doing the initial designs for the main cast which I doubt it took him very long, and you also have Bardock's personality in the game much more closer to Toriyama's Bardock (in the story, Bardock helps the Time Patrol because Goku was in danger, so he cares a lot about him). A mere coincidence of the developers? Toriyama's input? Certainly a hint, though.
pepd wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:38 pmThe dictionaries serve the language and communication, not the other way around, even less an arbitrarily specific definition that, while valid as any other, is not the definition of the word people are referring to (fictional canon).
The "fictional canon" that you still want to rely on is in itself very contradictory. Even if you want to say "canon and continuity are the same thing" and that becomes accepted and acknowledged by the dictionaries, according to the Wikipedia that you used the last time, it says: "the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base", but this is not something that will become a norm. Fanbase does not determine what is canonical and what is not (unless the author or someone with such power give them that right to do so).

The "fictional canon" should at least be rooted in: "the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its author/right holder(s)/official entity" for it to make any sense at all. Once you give the power to the fanbase, things are doomed right from the start, there won't be a consensus, not everyone will agree to what others may say.

Hell, let's already apply that to Dragon Ball, let's give the power to deem works canonical or not canonical to fans: I will say Dragon Ball Online is canonical. VegettoEX will say the original ending of the manga trumps that other ending. There will be people saying Dragon Ball GT is canonical (if there are people in this very forum who would do that, please do speak up! Don't shy away, you are entitled to have that opinion!) and so on, but you'll have people disagreeing with some or all that. So no, you can't have the fanbase to say what's canonical and what's not. Under any circumstances!

But that Wikipedia page also says that "in other times", canonicity can mean "to be acknowledged by the creator(s)". So which one is it? What is the true meaning? To be acknowledged by the fanbase or by the author? How do we know and when is the time a work is to be considered by a fanbase or by the author? See, not even a consensus here!
pepd wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:38 pmbut for Toriyama canon we just don't know enough production details to know.
Shouldn't "Toriyama canon" be the movies to begin with? Or are you saying we don't know if the very lines that mention Tarble in both movies came from Toriyama? Because that would raise even more questions to be asked and more points of view to be discussed and analyzed.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

Post Reply