Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

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PurestEvil
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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:12 am

ABED wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:18 pm No, I IMAGINED something. It's not any kind of canon. There was no reason to create a new term for this common practice that predates this ridiculous term. Even your definition fails to include when people include in it things they would prefer to have seen happen.

What purpose did that term serve when it was created? Why not just "I imagine..."? If it's not a type of canon, why conflate the two?

Sorry about being inexact when I wrote "it has no meaning". I write stream of consciousness. I guess what I really mean is closer to the term doesn't serve a good function as it isn't a good shorthand for words or phrases "headcanon" is meant to denote.
I am pretty sure the word "headcanon" was made as a mockery of people who believed their own imaginary events of a story was somehow what actually happened (e.g., Gohan hated studying, Kami taught kindness to Goku, etc).
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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:50 am

Everything you should (already) know about "headcanon" (by now). And look... From the very same source that has been used before.

Synonyms for this term would be: "To me"; "I think that"; "My opinion" and etc. "Headcanon" would work as a noun that can very much be used instead of all these terms. And what do you know, English is known for having nouns even for the most useless things imaginable. So it's very odd to see someone be against this one for no legitimate reason. You're just giving it a name, no harm will come from that.

It can be a type of canon (where there's no official canon), yes. Because even that mentality "only what the author does is canonical" is not "an idea explicitly supported by sanctioned text or other media" (as per the source provided above) when it comes to Dragon Ball. If you think that "only what the author does is canonical", that would be your "headcanon", your opinion. Naturally, others will agree or disagree about that. Others would still be able to have their own "headcanon"/opinion, because your reality is not someone else's reality as well. My canon is different from yours. It really isn't that hard to understand.

It's really curious how this person is against the usage of this term but seems comfortable mixing the meanings of two different words.
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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:38 am

I'm against it because it confuses things.

There is no your canon and my canon. That's not how it works. This is what dumb terms like headcanon lead to. It's like this insipid word was born out of some need for something to be canon even though nothing was explicitly stated; Heaven forbid we just say something like imagine or wish.
Grimlock wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:50 am It really isn't that hard to understand.
Well apparently it is.

The whole reason canon as a concept was created is because people wanted to know what events in a narrative, be it biblical or literary, happened.
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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:18 am

I've never seen much confusion about this, nor I've been confused at all.

It's just the title you give to whatever you believe happened. The word 'head' already implies there's no official/direct/unquestionable support for it in the actual material. It's just shit inside your own head, that's why like PurestEvil said, it's used to lower the value of certain opinions that may come off as facts.

Language evolves, it certainly has since biblical times. And that is not bad.

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:05 am

Headcanon just means “I believe this to be true of this fictional work even though I don’t have solid info to back it up” its a completely inoffensive fandom term and I don’t know why its burning people’s biscuits now.

You can headcanon that Chi Chi is a dominatrix in the bedroom, Goten and Trunks grow up to be a couple, Yamucha favorite color is pink and Vegeta gets pegged on Friday by Bulma as part of his endurance training. They’re all imaginary characters. It’s okay.

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:02 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:05 am Headcanon just means “I believe this to be true of this fictional work even though I don’t have solid info to back it up” its a completely inoffensive fandom term and I don’t know why its burning people’s biscuits now.

You can headcanon that Chi Chi is a dominatrix in the bedroom, Goten and Trunks grow up to be a couple, Yamucha favorite color is pink and Vegeta gets pegged on Friday by Bulma as part of his endurance training. They’re all imaginary characters. It’s okay.
Ever seen someone try to argue headcanon with their own headcanon? Hell, aren't all of the power levels (except those that were officially recognized) headcanon? People argue that all the time. It's just a little bizarre--what's the word "canon" doing in there? It's almost like an oxymoron talking about the imaginary facts of the story. Just a bunch of fanfiction really.

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:09 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:02 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:05 am Headcanon just means “I believe this to be true of this fictional work even though I don’t have solid info to back it up” its a completely inoffensive fandom term and I don’t know why its burning people’s biscuits now.

You can headcanon that Chi Chi is a dominatrix in the bedroom, Goten and Trunks grow up to be a couple, Yamucha favorite color is pink and Vegeta gets pegged on Friday by Bulma as part of his endurance training. They’re all imaginary characters. It’s okay.
Ever seen someone try to argue headcanon with their own headcanon? Hell, aren't all of the power levels (except those that were officially recognized) headcanon? People argue that all the time. It's just a little bizarre--what's the word "canon" doing in there? It's almost like an oxymoron talking about the imaginary facts of the story. Just a bunch of fanfiction really.
Power level dorks are another issue entirely. I usually just ignore them. Which is why I avoid all non-Kanz Dragon Ball forums!

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:08 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:09 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:02 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:05 am Headcanon just means “I believe this to be true of this fictional work even though I don’t have solid info to back it up” its a completely inoffensive fandom term and I don’t know why its burning people’s biscuits now.

You can headcanon that Chi Chi is a dominatrix in the bedroom, Goten and Trunks grow up to be a couple, Yamucha favorite color is pink and Vegeta gets pegged on Friday by Bulma as part of his endurance training. They’re all imaginary characters. It’s okay.
Ever seen someone try to argue headcanon with their own headcanon? Hell, aren't all of the power levels (except those that were officially recognized) headcanon? People argue that all the time. It's just a little bizarre--what's the word "canon" doing in there? It's almost like an oxymoron talking about the imaginary facts of the story. Just a bunch of fanfiction really.
Power level dorks are another issue entirely. I usually just ignore them. Which is why I avoid all non-Kanz Dragon Ball forums!
Ouch... I mean, I don't disagree, but wouldn't all of these power level/feat/power scaling theorists (we'll call them) just using "headcanon?" At least it's more reasonable headcanon instead of like, "My headcanon is that Vegeta's last name is Smith." But headcanon nonetheless, right?

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by The Monkey King » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:13 pm

Sure why not?

I'm just wondering why it's never been dubbed :think:

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:36 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:18 am I've never seen much confusion about this, nor I've been confused at all.

It's just the title you give to whatever you believe happened. The word 'head' already implies there's no official/direct/unquestionable support for it in the actual material. It's just shit inside your own head, that's why like PurestEvil said, it's used to lower the value of certain opinions that may come off as facts.

Language evolves, it certainly has since biblical times. And that is not bad.
Evolution implies progress.

What makes canon difficult to ascertain in some situations is in a series without an end, as DB seems to be these days, things are thrown and out of continuity all the time.
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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by TobyS » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:57 am

ABED wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:18 pm
TobyS wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:55 am
ABED wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:08 pm No, it's just a stupid term that has no meaning. Just say "I imagine X happened." It's a lot clearer. It doesn't equate what you think or wanted to happen with canon/continuity. Saying "headcanon" is a thing is saying it's a type of canon and it's not.
Saying it has no meaning is stupid when it literally has an obvious meaning that is part of a common language of million of fans.

It means "what do you like to imagine happened off screen that is never confirmed but is technically possible and not contradicted later"

That's it. We see so little of these characters daily lives and or even lives total it's fertile soil.

If you ever speculated what a characters favourite food is, congratulations you created head canon.
No, I IMAGINED something. It's not any kind of canon. There was no reason to create a new term for this common practice that predates this ridiculous term. Even your definition fails to include when people include in it things they would prefer to have seen happen.

What purpose did that term serve when it was created? Why not just "I imagine..."? If it's not a type of canon, why conflate the two?

Sorry about being inexact when I wrote "it has no meaning". I write stream of consciousness. I guess what I really mean is closer to the term doesn't serve a good function as it isn't a good shorthand for words or phrases "headcanon" is meant to denote.
There's an obvious difference between “I imagine”

I can imagine right now that vegeta likes to wear women's underwear under his Saiyan gear. And by reading this sentence you might have imagined it too.

Headcanon is usually more permanent and usually supplements existing material rather than just being parasitic to it.

For example “kuririn and Yamcha were inspired by gokus resurrection to start training again. That's why they have gis under their clothes in yo son Goku and their friends return and why Yamcha isn't overtaken by chaozu in the Moro arc.”

That's a headcanon.

Language evolves and communities invent their own terminology which have specific and subtly different meanings.

Another explanation is that people feel silly saying imagine. Like a kid playing pretend. Rather than saying “based on my knowledge of the existing lore I think event X happened as a result of event Y” canon denotes a level of importance and authority. Head canon is a humble modifier saying you don't have the authority to declare canon but it matters to you like it's canon.

I can “imagine” gokus favourite food is beef stew but I don't really give a shit if it is or not. I'd never say that it was my headcanon that it was.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
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Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:01 am

It really isn't that complicated. "Headcanon" is basically an opinion someone treats as a fact without confirming evidence.
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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:09 am

But how can you imagine something is fact without any basis for it?

The most asinine thing is when someone has one of these unsubstantiated "facts" that get contradicted by the real story and then they get all upset about it. That's really what the problem is--you can make whatever fanfiction you want, but don't stand it up against the real thing as if it should conform to your fanfiction (not you "you," the general "you" lol).

I've seen that a lot, which is why "headcanon" just exudes deep groans from me lol

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Peach » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:38 am

The only stories that are "canon" are chapters 1-519 of the manga.

Yo! Son Goku and His Friend Return does exist in the Battle of Gods/Resurrection F, Dragon Ball Super (anime), and Dragon Ball Super (manga) continuities though. With Vegeta's brother being referenced in all three. Akira Toriyama did pen the Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return too. I would say Toriyama holds the special in high esteem to continue to reference it all these years later. If Toriyama's seal of approval and involvement is what some of you define as canon, then yeah. It definitely means that criteria.

I think Jump Festa holds the rights to the OVA though. Which causes some legal issues that prevent it from being re-released in english, recapped, and remade in Super.

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Re: Is Yo! Son Goku and his friend return! Canon?

Post by Shintoki » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:15 pm

Peach wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:38 am The only stories that are "canon" are chapters 1-519 of the manga.

Yo! Son Goku and His Friend Return does exist in the Battle of Gods/Resurrection F, Dragon Ball Super (anime), and Dragon Ball Super (manga) continuities though. With Vegeta's brother being referenced in all three. Akira Toriyama did pen the Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return too. I would say Toriyama holds the special in high esteem to continue to reference it all these years later. If Toriyama's seal of approval and involvement is what some of you define as canon, then yeah. It definitely means that criteria.

I think Jump Festa holds the rights to the OVA though. Which causes some legal issues that prevent it from being re-released in english, recapped, and remade in Super.
It always baffled me how it was never remade in super despite it being a great source for toei to remake and pad the series with so they don't get too ahead of the manga, but once you realize the legal shenanigans surrendering the production of that OVA, it all starts making sense.

oh well
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

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