When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

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Cursed Lemon
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:44 am

ABED wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:32 pm
Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:33 pm Lukewarm take: Goku historically was never dumb, just naive and sheltered. Only in DBS did he become an idiot, and an obnoxious one too. The VERY FIRST SCENE of him whining incessantly about doing farm work was jarringly out of character.
How was it out of character?
In the very first episode of DBZ we see him gathering firewood by...punching down a tree. He didn't sit there whinging endlessly about how he didn't want to do it, he just did it, but in true "Goku" fashion. That's his character.

Or apparently not. Maybe Goku being a dumbass is now canon.
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:42 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:44 am
ABED wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:32 pm
Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:33 pm Lukewarm take: Goku historically was never dumb, just naive and sheltered. Only in DBS did he become an idiot, and an obnoxious one too. The VERY FIRST SCENE of him whining incessantly about doing farm work was jarringly out of character.
How was it out of character?

In the very first episode of DBZ we see him gathering firewood by...punching down a tree.
He didn't sit there whinging endlessly about how he didn't want to do it, he just did it, but in true "Goku" fashion. That's his character.

Or apparently not. Maybe Goku being a dumbass is now canon.
Almost the entirety of the first episode is filler, including this. But either way, gathering firewood probably isn't as tedious for Goku as doing farmwork. It's something he was used to doing as a kid as well.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:20 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:44 am
ABED wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:32 pm
Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:33 pm Lukewarm take: Goku historically was never dumb, just naive and sheltered. Only in DBS did he become an idiot, and an obnoxious one too. The VERY FIRST SCENE of him whining incessantly about doing farm work was jarringly out of character.
How was it out of character?
In the very first episode of DBZ we see him gathering firewood by...punching down a tree. He didn't sit there whinging endlessly about how he didn't want to do it, he just did it, but in true "Goku" fashion. That's his character.

Or apparently not. Maybe Goku being a dumbass is now canon.
You completely missed the key difference. Goku getting firewood is for himself and his family. Farming was so his family could make money. He's not farming for himself. He has ZERO problem with hunting and fishing and getting firewood. DBS didn't make him different in that regard.
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:03 am

Yeah Goku’s problem was having to spend about eight hours out of his day farming for income instead of spending that time training. Taking 5 minutes out of his day to collect firewood or catch a fish for his family is nothing.

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:47 am

Guys.

He punched down the tree. He didn't slowly chop down a 20-foot-wide redwood-ass tree with an axe for the entire day, like a normal human being. He punched it.

He could've flown over the field with his arms hooking into the dirt and had the entire plot tilled in under five minutes.

But instead he rode a tractor. Because in DBS, he's a dumbass.
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:58 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:47 am Guys.

He punched down the tree. He didn't slowly chop down a 20-foot-wide redwood-ass tree with an axe for the entire day, like a normal human being. He punched it.

He could've flown over the field with his arms hooking into the dirt and had the entire plot tilled in under five minutes.

But instead he rode a tractor. Because in DBS, he's a dumbass.
The point of the scene was to show Goku doing a "job." He doesn't view chopping down firewood with his bare hands as a job; it's something he has to do to feed himself and his family. I don't look at scenes like this that are clearly written to show a specific plot point as indicative of a character's intelligence; it just comes down to the writing. That said, maybe having Goku working and office job would've been a more effective way of showing it.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:14 pm

Just assume he’s paid by the hour and doing his farming job lickity split does him no favors. Just like most 9-5 jobs in real life!

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:16 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:58 am
Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:47 am Guys.

He punched down the tree. He didn't slowly chop down a 20-foot-wide redwood-ass tree with an axe for the entire day, like a normal human being. He punched it.

He could've flown over the field with his arms hooking into the dirt and had the entire plot tilled in under five minutes.

But instead he rode a tractor. Because in DBS, he's a dumbass.
The point of the scene was to show Goku doing a "job." He doesn't view chopping down firewood with his bare hands as a job; it's something he has to do to feed himself and his family. I don't look at scenes like this that are clearly written to show a specific plot point as indicative of a character's intelligence; it just comes down to the writing. That said, maybe having Goku working and office job would've been a more effective way of showing it.
Yes. And the writing is bad, making Goku into a complainer and an idiot which he never was previously. That's the point.
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:44 pm

It's a commentary on the futility of labor under capitalism.
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by The Monkey King » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:46 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:14 pm Just assume he’s paid by the hour and doing his farming job lickity split does him no favors. Just like most 9-5 jobs in real life!
Can't assume that when it makes no logical sense, since farmers make money from the produce they sell, hours be damned.

Come to think of it Goku using a tractor is really dumb, even in the first chapter of the manga he got fire wood in an instant by punching a tree stump into pieces rather than cutting at it with an axe for hours.

Goku has zero reason not to do his job with his super human abilities :lol:

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:50 pm

"Children should see Gokuu using human means to produce goods so that they, too, can aspire to be good little workers for capitalism."

"Kids might imitate Gokuu if he uses his fists, use a tractor instead since fewer people have those!"
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:56 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:16 pm Yes. And the writing is bad, making Goku into a complainer and an idiot which he never was previously. That's the point.
Maybe, but I doubt the writers were actively trying to make him an idiot with that scene. The point of the scene, badly written or not, was to show he didn't want a job. Chopping firewood with his bare hands was not a job for Goku, and there's never any indication prior to Super that he wants one. That's my point.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:51 pm

Goku not caring about being seen as a villian by the other Universes in the TOP arc because he just cares about fighting...

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:03 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:16 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:58 am
Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:47 am Guys.

He punched down the tree. He didn't slowly chop down a 20-foot-wide redwood-ass tree with an axe for the entire day, like a normal human being. He punched it.

He could've flown over the field with his arms hooking into the dirt and had the entire plot tilled in under five minutes.

But instead he rode a tractor. Because in DBS, he's a dumbass.
The point of the scene was to show Goku doing a "job." He doesn't view chopping down firewood with his bare hands as a job; it's something he has to do to feed himself and his family. I don't look at scenes like this that are clearly written to show a specific plot point as indicative of a character's intelligence; it just comes down to the writing. That said, maybe having Goku working and office job would've been a more effective way of showing it.
Yes. And the writing is bad, making Goku into a complainer and an idiot which he never was previously. That's the point.
He wasn't previously forced to do farm work as a means to make a living. He had no need for it.
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:24 pm

I don’t understand why Goku needs to work to make a living to begin with. Not only is he good friends with one of the richest people in the world (Bulma), but his brother in law is apparently the most beloved figure on the planet.

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:42 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:24 pm I don’t understand why Goku needs to work to make a living to begin with. Not only is he good friends with one of the richest people in the world (Bulma), but his brother in law is apparently the most beloved figure on the planet.
Well, in the anime, in episode 1, I think, Mr. Satan gives him money which makes Goku retire, basically.

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:00 pm

We should all aspire to be like Gokuu: coaxing our rich friends into helping us escape the cruel system that is capitalism. :D
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:33 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:00 pm We should all aspire to be like Gokuu: coaxing our rich friends into helping us escape the cruel system that is capitalism. :D
Sadly I didn’t know any rich girls when I was a kid to make marriage promises to.

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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:36 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:33 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:00 pm We should all aspire to be like Gokuu: coaxing our rich friends into helping us escape the cruel system that is capitalism. :D
Sadly I didn’t know any rich girls when I was a kid to make marriage promises to.
It's very saddening for my poor Sapphic soul. :(
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Re: When do you think DBS made Goku too stupid?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:39 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:44 am
ABED wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:32 pm
Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:33 pm Lukewarm take: Goku historically was never dumb, just naive and sheltered. Only in DBS did he become an idiot, and an obnoxious one too. The VERY FIRST SCENE of him whining incessantly about doing farm work was jarringly out of character.
How was it out of character?
In the very first episode of DBZ we see him gathering firewood by...punching down a tree. He didn't sit there whinging endlessly about how he didn't want to do it, he just did it, but in true "Goku" fashion. That's his character.

Or apparently not. Maybe Goku being a dumbass is now canon.
It's like giving someone a list of chores they may need to do around the house and they'll goan about doing that, but witll spent hours and hour doing mundane things to grind out in a video game, or make sure they've don literaly everything in a 200 hour game.
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