Does Toriyama's tendency to hold no characters sacred help the series in the long run?

[Cure Dragon 255]

We all know Toriyama's MO to hold nothing sacred and do as he pleases... but I started wondering if that indeed helped more than it harmed.

Me, Demon Prince Piccolo, Kunzait and so on rightly argue that OG Dragon Ball is important, is the true unargueable beggining of the story and so on. But I realized this also helped keep Dragon Ball relevant in the long run and I dont mean Super. Dont like a saga? Go and read watch the saga you like at your leisure, there's very little truly needed context in terms of characters and plot. As much as I hate to admit it Z managed to be succesful in the west due to the very light context.

And dont get me wrong, I HATE that OG Dragon Ball is treated like an unnecesary Comedic Prequel TM. And I think that the fact that countries other than the USA AND Other english speaking regions, starting from the original, helped not only OG but Z itself too, that's why DBZ is a sorta cool show most people have watched at least once in the usa but is almost religion in Latin America for example. The context of Dragon Ball may not be important, but watching Goku grow up and stronger against increasingly evil characters until he is faced with the incarnation of evil that is Piccolo Daimao is nothing short of awesome.

Compare trying to start, say, Naruto or One Piece from the 2nd half. You'd have a hard time indeed.

[JulieYBM]

As a writer myself I feel like the most important thing a writer can do is write what they find fun to write. If that means for Toriyama not really holding anything sacred then I think that's fine. Of course, I think in a way he certainly does hold some things sacred, such as his 'going against the grain' type ideas which inevitably lead to boring and unfulfilling elements, like Gokuu being comically written as alien a personality. So yeah, I'm bored of that and find that ot comes across as tired and old.

At the end of the day, if you're willing to go through the absolute nightmarish Hell that is creating a work of art it should be because you creates what you felt like.

[ABED]

I'm not sure what you mean here by "holding nothing sacred". I thought the title was referring to irreverent tone, but it's more about how the simplicity and user friendliness of its continuity lead to the original DB series being seen as the irrelevant red-headed step child of the franchise. Could you explain what you mean by "holding no characters sacred"?

[Saiya6Cit]

I feel you Bro.

You would be surprised how many people I know who have not read the manga ir even watched original DB anime and they are Dragon Ball hardcore fans. Personally I don't discriminate, if you can tell bardock, from goku from goten, you pass the test!

I agree, dragon ball Z is an action based show, it has a bit about friendship and personal growth but specially since perfect cell it's all about "aaaaahhh"" and increasing the Ki, true, there is not much plot going on. I have always said it is the most american influenced anime (kakarot coming to earth its practically superman and we all know it) and mirai trunks saga was heavinly inspired by that X-men arch, hence it's sucess in america. DBZ It is not a deep anime and I also agree it does not matter if you did not watch DB first, you can still understand everything.

DB was all about adventure and had a sense of folklore, DBZ is like an entire different show, period.

that's why DBZ is a sorta cool show most people have watched at least once in the usa but is almost religion in Latin America for example

Hhahha i am from Mexico, allow me to clarify why

We only have two tv stations in the whole country, yes, only televisa and tv azteca have the "open broadcasting" the others are latino versions of (CNN, FOX, NBC, MTV you name it) but you have to pay for that. TV stations wanted to have lots of rating so they could sell ads right? so they hooked up all housewives with a formula: Handsome men in romance stories that end in "to be continued" with several archs and stuff... and with that, TELENOVELAS are born in the 90s.

Dragon Ball was telenovela for children. Simple as that. Tv stations found out about it and they would never stop airing dragon ball, dragon ball or dragon ball GT. Sometimes they would air two of them at different times. We mexicans LOVE dragon ball. Visit my Wacky and mexican DB gallery for proof: https://www.deviantart.com/saiya6cit/ga ... mexican-db

[capsulecorp]

Yes, certainly. Being able to continually move forward and surprise people with new and interesting characters is a big part of the series' success and if Toriyama had felt it was necessary to make sure every existing character was treated "fairly" and given lots of time to shine, "wins", and so on, the story's pace would have suffered dramatically.

Now, if only he'd find it in himself to retire Vegeta.....

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I'm not sure what you mean here by "holding nothing sacred". I thought the title was referring to irreverent tone, but it's more about how the simplicity and user friendliness of its continuity lead to the original DB series being seen as the irrelevant red-headed step child of the franchise. Could you explain what you mean by "holding no characters sacred"?

That's what I took from it, that with Dragon Ball it's relatively easy to jump on anywhere compared to plenty of other anime/manga. And that this may have indirectly led to OG Dragon Ball being neglected.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a double-edged sword. I enjoy the simplicity of Toriyama's storytelling and characters. No matter what arc you jump in at, you'll be able to pick up the character dynamics as they currently are pretty quickly. That said, if you're jumping in at the start of Z (ie the Raditz arc), you still have no idea just how deep Bulma, Krillin, and Roshi's relationships with Goku go. And when Tien and Yamcha show up in the arc, you figure they're friends, but you have none of the backstory or character dynamics that make their spots as Z senshi more meaningful. It's not essential to understanding the story at hand, but the added context makes everything much more impactful and rewarding later on.

Despite my signature, I don't necessarily blame Toei for splitting the anime; I see how that can benefit them from a marketing standpoint. In many ways, the Piccolo Jr. arc feels like a natural ending, and the Saiyan saga a new beginning. It definitely hasn't hurt the series itself as a whole, but the idea that the "important stuff" begins with Raditz is just flat out incorrect and unfortunately is an assessment a lot of DB fans have. The King Piccolo arc should be mentioned in the same breath as the Saiyan, Freeza, Android, and Boo arcs. I think the simplicity of DB is what draws fans to all of it, but at the same time it allows for the beginning portion to be easily dismissed (I've even heard people referred to OG DB as filler). I have little doubt that if the early arcs were grouped with the Z-portion in the anime, they would be more renowned and successful.

[Cure Dragon 255]

NO NO NO ABED! You misunderstood. I just said that this helped the popularity of Z and Dragon Ball in General. Because since sagas are easy to jump into any, it makes it easier to read and enjoy. I think you can enjoy ANY saga at any order at your leisure (EVEN WITHOUT A DIVIDE LIKE THE ANIME DID)and you can enjoy with because its so light in needing context.

But I think it IS still a terrible thing that Funimation did and made the second half of the series all that anyone cares about.

EDIT: Demon Prince Piccolo explained what I meant to say! Thanks man!

[JulieYBM]

I think the episodic nature of the arcs make the stories fresher and emphasize the more unique aspects of said arc more. This is why I do not mind how the arcs in Super aren't flowing into one another like the arcs did in the original comic. I like the vague wiggle room.

[ABED]

That is what I wrote, but I still don't get what "hold no characters sacred" means in this context.

[capsulecorp]

That is what I wrote, but I still don't get what "hold no characters sacred" means in this context.

It means that when he's tired of writing stories that include, say, Tien, he simply stops including Tien. Tien isn't considered "sacred", meaning its ok if we don't always know what he's up to, or that he doesn't play an important role in every story, doesn't deserve "a win" now and then.

[ABED]

Okay, but in that case, letting a character leave the series when they don't have a place in the narrative shows more "respect" (for lack of a better word) than keeping them around doing nothing.

[goku the krump dancer]

Its like an athlete playing way past his prime, after a while its just time to hang it up. Given that they've included Tien, Krillin and Piccolo in quite a few major storylines since the Super era started can anyone honestly say they've done anything worth while besides beat up some riff raff?

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I don't think the OP is saying that discarding Tien, Yamcha, etc. means Toriyama is disrespecting the characters or that moving past them is inherently a bad thing. It's moreso asking if this approach somehow lends to people disregarding OG DB. Whereas had these characters stayed relevant in the story, would OG Dragon Ball be more acknowledged?

That said, I definitely agree with the sentiment that we don't need them past their prime, unless they're going to be given power ups that can feel earned within the story or just given actually useful roles on the sidelines. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of their appearances in Super. I've since come to appreciate the natural shift away from them in Z.

[ABED]

Roshi's "antics" aside, his place in the narrative as the wise old master of martial arts is organic. He doesn't have to contribute physically anymore, but his take on events is always welcome.

[TekTheNinja]

I'd say there's two issues with that.
One is that some characters being phased out doesn't feel quite so natural. I think Tenshinhan practically just giving up and excepting himself as one of the fodder characters is specifically out of character for him, but there are other smaller examples of a character's lack of relevance coming from behaving out of character to force them out as well, I tend to point to "Yamcha cheated on Bulma" as an excuse to break them up, which is something even Yamcha's seiyu found questionable if I remember correctly.

The other issue is that some characters are held sacred, indicating a sort of bias rather than a natural plot progression. Gohan is an interesting example here because even though I consider him a rather wasted and shafted character later on in the series, wherever the plot seems it necessary that he becomes more powerful again, he gains an asspull powerup.
That's not even getting into Vegeta, whose personality and motivations often regress to keep him striving for the same things he seemingly got over to stay strong and in the plot.
See, if truly no characters were held as sacred, Vegeta would have been phased out of the plot after the Boo arc, but he remains the second most relevant character in DBS.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Isn't Gohan's entire character based on a convenient power-up? At 4 years old, he's able to become many many MANY times stronger than Goku in Dragon Ball (and thus anyone Goku had to fight) without an ounce of training. The explanation is that he has hidden potential due to being a Saiyan-human hybrid...and for the most part fans just go with that unquestioningly. I can understand feeling like the nature of Gohan's power-up in, say, the Boo arc feels unsatisfying, but it doesn't feel any more like a convenience than his original rage boosts to me.

[ABED]

Genetics isn't an... I can't say that ridiculous term. Sure, it's something you have to go with, but being the beneficiary of genetics isn't dumb especially since it leads to a great story. It's not simply an excuse to give Gohan enough power to fight the bad guys.

The power arc in the Buu saga is unsatisfying because it doesn't lead anywhere.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Genetics isn't an... I can't say that ridiculous term. Sure, it's something you have to go with, but being the beneficiary of genetics isn't dumb especially since it leads to a great story. It's not simply an excuse to give Gohan enough power to fight the bad guys.

The power arc in the Buu saga is unsatisfying because it doesn't lead anywhere.

I don't disagree with any of that. I don't find the power-up in the Boo saga to be satisfying at all, while Gohan's rage boosts in the Saiyan arc particularly are some of my favorite scenes and character moments for him. And genetics works fine as a reason, but Gohan having his hidden power brought out magically is still following the same line that he has dormant power. It may be unsatisfying, and it's not as compelling of storytelling, but it's not any more ridiculous of a power-up than a rage boost. That said...I think you pinpointed why fans accept the rage boosts more willingly and have more of an issue with later power-ups; the former feels a lot more pivotal and engaging. EDIT: I don't like saying that term either, so I adjusted my wording a bit lol.

[ABED]

Genetics isn't an... I can't say that ridiculous term. Sure, it's something you have to go with, but being the beneficiary of genetics isn't dumb especially since it leads to a great story. It's not simply an excuse to give Gohan enough power to fight the bad guys.

The power arc in the Buu saga is unsatisfying because it doesn't lead anywhere.

I don't disagree with any of that. I don't find the power-up in the Boo saga to be satisfying at all, while Gohan's rage boosts in the Saiyan arc particularly are some of my favorite scenes and character moments for him. And genetics works fine as a reason, but Gohan having his hidden power brought out magically is still following the same line that he has dormant power. It may be unsatisfying, and it's not as compelling of storytelling, but it's not any more ridiculous of a power-up than a rage boost. That said...I think you pinpointed why fans accept the rage boosts more willingly and have more of an issue with later power-ups; the former feels a lot more pivotal and engaging. EDIT: I don't like saying that term either, so I adjusted my wording a bit lol.

Well stated.

[MasenkoHA]

In the Saiyan arc Gohan still had to train to make himself semi useful in battle. The whole point of Piccolo taking him under his wing is Gohan could be useful but as is he’s not much help if his power only came out in short burst.

Mystic Gohan just gets his power up. He doesn’t have to train to control his powers he’s just handed his power up on a golden platter. In that sense it’s actually satisfying that he ultimately fails. And again I will praise Super, even if they don’t do much with it at the end, for having Gohan realize his shortcomings, have Piccolo call him out on his arrogant streak that was never addressed in the original story, and make him train to get back to par.