Does Toriyama's tendency to hold no characters sacred help the series in the long run?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
ZeroIsOurHero
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:55 pm

Re: Does Toriyama's tendency to hold no characters sacred help the series in the long run?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:05 pm

Yeah, Ultimate Gohan is such a dumb plot point. It feels like Toriyama was trying to please the angry Gohan fans who wanted him to go back to the way he was in the Cell Games, without adding the story buildup that made Cell Games Gohan so well-liked in the first place. I'm fine with Gohan's other power-ups though, I don't understand the people who say they aren't earned.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Does Toriyama's tendency to hold no characters sacred help the series in the long run?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:44 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:29 am In the Saiyan arc Gohan still had to train to make himself semi useful in battle. The whole point of Piccolo taking him under his wing is Gohan could be useful but as is he’s not much help if his power only came out in short burst.

Mystic Gohan just gets his power up. He doesn’t have to train to control his powers he’s just handed his power up on a golden platter. In that sense it’s actually satisfying that he ultimately fails. And again I will praise Super, even if they don’t do much with it at the end, for having Gohan realize his shortcomings, have Piccolo call him out on his arrogant streak that was never addressed in the original story, and make him train to get back to par.
I was referring to his rage boost against Raditz, moreso the fact that he innately possessed that power. It was a power-up that didn't require an ounce of training, just him getting mad, and in that moment he's many times more powerful than anyone we've previously seen in Dragon Ball (besides Raditz). Piccolo's training merely helped Gohan learn to control this power. The difference between it and the Mystic power-up for me is that the initial rage boost manages to be a pivotal and exciting character moment, and like you said, he has to train to learn to harness it. The Boo power-up is unsatisfying, but it's still just another way of showing Gohan has massive wells of hidden power.

EDIT: Sorry, I've re-read your post and have a more full understanding of what you're saying. You illustrated another good point as to why it works in the Saiyan saga and doesn't quite work later (aside from Gohan ultimately failing being satisfying). My point was moreso against the notion that the actual Mystic power-up was implausible for Gohan. He's always been as powerful as the story needs him to be in any given moment.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Does Toriyama's tendency to hold no characters sacred help the series in the long run?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:23 pm

But it was something that worked dramatically. Yes, he's more powerful than our heroes, but he doesn't know how to use it. It leads to SO many great things. It is this that forces Piccolo to train him and thus forge a bond that will eventually lead to his redemption. Gohan's inability to control it will help result in people's deaths because a young boy with potential is being counted on even though he's young and frightened and inexperienced. It also leads to a Gohan's arc of going from frightened child to becoming brave.

The two power boosts could not be any more different. The Buu arc boost was the result of magic and literally could've been anyone.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Does Toriyama's tendency to hold no characters sacred help the series in the long run?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:25 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:23 pm But it was something that worked dramatically. Yes, he's more powerful than our heroes, but he doesn't know how to use it. It leads to SO many great things. It is this that forces Piccolo to train him and thus forge a bond that will eventually lead to his redemption. Gohan's inability to control it will help result in people's deaths because a young boy with potential is being counted on even though he's young and frightened and inexperienced. It also leads to a Gohan's arc of going from frightened child to becoming brave.
Again, no argument there at all. That's why it's a lot easier to accept as a plot point than a random magical power boost that requires no further character growth. I just think both are equally plausible means for power increase, one is just more captivating and rewarding than the other.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

Post Reply