Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

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Desassina
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Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by Desassina » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:22 pm

There was a time when I couldn't see Dragon Ball as a Japanese production, partially due to its dub in my country when we consider its anime, but specially Toriyama's drawing style, which had an universal appeal that was due to the west, at least when it was in motion on the big screen.

Also, do Japanese authors and their public frown at others who attempt to be iconic, as if they were without a style rooted on tradition, like some artists frown at abstract painters who deal with geometry, for example? I suspect that when without regional success, the best that one could do is to attempt the world, although some of them got there by accident.

I'm sorry for the aside, but I think that it helps, because Toriyama was that kind of accident.

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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:04 pm

Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:22 pm There was a time when I couldn't see Dragon Ball as a Japanese production

This genuinely confuses me. Even in first grade when I didn’t quite understand what anime was I was able to pick up on a distinctly asian motif of the series. In its most whitewashed Saban days. Look at Gohan’s original outfit. Look at Chi Chi. LOOK AT KING KAI Even with the eastern mysticism all but removed and Power Rangers style rock music infecting the background music the characters were still identified as martial artist with Japanese characters on their gi and the lead character proclaiming he practiced the Kame Sennin style of martial arts.

But somehow people still couldn’t pick up on the fact that this was a show from the land of the rising sun? Really?

It’s indistinguishably Asian.

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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:12 pm

Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:22 pm There was a time when I couldn't see Dragon Ball as a Japanese production, partially due to its dub in my country when we consider its anime, but specially Toriyama's drawing style, which had an universal appeal that was due to the west, at least when it was in motion on the big screen.

Also, do Japanese authors and their public frown at others who attempt to be iconic, as if they were without a style rooted on tradition, like some artists frown at abstract painters who deal with geometry, for example? I suspect that when without regional success, the best that one could do is to attempt the world, although some of them got there by accident.

I'm sorry for the aside, but I think that it helps, because Toriyama was that kind of accident.
I don't know in Japan, but from my point of view and back as a kid, I was familiar with Digimon and Pokemon, that was the anime here, of course, frown upon by the local otaku, who were watching Hellsing and stuff like that on German TV. So we switched to German TV, watching Digimon in advance and then there was Dragon Ball. It definitely stand out from other more recent anime titles back then, with it's kind of oldschool kung-fu look and interesting concept and fighting that we weren't familiar with that much. Only thing simmilar to it was Sailor Moon kind of (in comparison to stuff like Monster Rancher or Detective Conan). But as I didn't understood the story much, it was kind of boring.

Then I switched channels and there was stuff like Slayers, Magic Knights Rayearth... I loved the more mature tones than I was used to with Pokemon and Digimon, but still, the artstyle was kinda animeish and not really original one and another. Until I saw fight of Son Goku Versus Vegeta in Buu arc, going Super Saiyan and everything, in French and I was like damn, this is totally dope, looking like nothing else I have saw till that moment! And as the opening ran in the next episode, I was like WHAT?! That is Dragon Ball!!!! And was hooked!
Buu arc was completely bonkers and then I have watched the DB series and afterwards Z again from beginning, as it started to air on RTL II.
The link to Japan and Asia was there for sure, as I was already fan of Jackien Chan, Bruce Lee and Jet Li kung fu movies and lot of the wuxia stuff aired here, like 36 Chambers Of Shao-lin - Kuririn, the character`s clothes, concept of chi and kung-fu - there is this awesome thread explaining all the links of DB to legends and wuxia genre to deep extent.

I have told this story on this forum countless of times since joining in 2005, but long story short, for me Dragon Ball as a whole with the artstyle, the concept, fighting and music together, is definitely original work among other anime and Toriyama has one of a time and completely uniqe "handwriting" in design field. So yeah, I think you can say it is iconic, take just Goku's hairstyle for example.

Also interesting, how most of the fighting shonen has an art that goes beyond the clichéd anime look (Sailor Moon/Ranma/Pokemon) for some reason - Hokuto No Ken, Dragon Ball, Saint Seiya, One Piece, Naruto, Jojo's Bizzare Adventure... You can show me one still from these series, manga or anime, and I can say right out what series that is as in the others, I am visually lost.
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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by Yuji » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:52 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:04 pm
Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:22 pm There was a time when I couldn't see Dragon Ball as a Japanese production

This genuinely confuses me. Even in first grade when I didn’t quite understand what anime was I was able to pick up on a distinctly asian motif of the series. In its most whitewashed Saban days. Look at Gohan’s original outfit. Look at Chi Chi. LOOK AT KING KAI Even with the eastern mysticism all but removed and Power Rangers style rock music infecting the background music the characters were still identified as martial artist with Japanese characters on their gi and the lead character proclaiming he practiced the Kame Sennin style of martial arts.

But somehow people still couldn’t pick up on the fact that this was a show from the land of the rising sun? Really?

It’s indistinguishably Asian.
That doesn't seem that far-fetched. A lot of western shows and movies focus on martial arts and borrow from Asian imagery, it would be understandable if kids think it's a western animation.

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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by Desassina » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:57 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:04 pmBut somehow people still couldn’t pick up on the fact that this was a show from the land of the rising sun? Really?

It’s indistinguishably Asian.
Imagine that being true not so many years ago when Avatar the Last Airbender came out, in case people thought that it was Japanese due to its theme, but saw that it was clearly not due to its style.

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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:00 pm

Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:22 pmAlso, do Japanese authors and their public frown at others who attempt to be iconic, as if they were without a style rooted on tradition, like some artists frown at abstract painters who deal with geometry, for example?
I'm not familiar with how Japanese people think in general and what's the accepted standard of their artists. I sincerely doubt Toriyama ever attempted to be iconic. If anything I think he just thought Dragon Ball would be this silly parody of 'Journey to the West' that wouldn't be remembered for anywhere near as long as it has, and is to this day astounded at what that simple manga he drew in 1984 evolved into.
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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:01 pm

Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:57 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:04 pmBut somehow people still couldn’t pick up on the fact that this was a show from the land of the rising sun? Really?

It’s indistinguishably Asian.
Imagine that being true not so many years ago when Avatar the Last Airbender came out, in case people thought that it was Japanese due to its theme, but saw that it was clearly not due to its style.
The filmmaking illiteracy rate really sucks, especially when combined with the importance placed on 'theme' or 'story' (which even then, the idea that Eva is 'thematically' Japanese is a weird read).
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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:52 pm

Yuji wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:52 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:04 pm
Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:22 pm There was a time when I couldn't see Dragon Ball as a Japanese production

This genuinely confuses me. Even in first grade when I didn’t quite understand what anime was I was able to pick up on a distinctly asian motif of the series. In its most whitewashed Saban days. Look at Gohan’s original outfit. Look at Chi Chi. LOOK AT KING KAI Even with the eastern mysticism all but removed and Power Rangers style rock music infecting the background music the characters were still identified as martial artist with Japanese characters on their gi and the lead character proclaiming he practiced the Kame Sennin style of martial arts.

But somehow people still couldn’t pick up on the fact that this was a show from the land of the rising sun? Really?

It’s indistinguishably Asian.
That doesn't seem that far-fetched. A lot of western shows and movies focus on martial arts and borrow from Asian imagery, it would be understandable if kids think it's a western animation.
I agree with this. A lot of kids had no clue that DBZ was Japanese. Same with most anime in general. And this includes older kids in middle school and high school. They just thought it was a badass cartoon.

I don't think I even knew what "Japan" or "Asia" was when I was a first grader.

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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:48 am

I knew Dragon Ball Z stood apart from a lot of the other cartoons I watched as a kid. But much like Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, the dubs were so Westernized that they created an essentially different product. As an 8-year-old, I didn't have much understanding of other cultures, or at least not enough to clearly recognize DB as Japanese. Or maybe it just didn't cross my mind; I just knew the characters had heavily stylized appearances. For years, I remember thinking the English version was the original version of Dragon Ball Z, and that Rock the Dragon was "the old opening." It wasn't even a question. I even remember being in an import store at the mall at age 8 and seeing the Kid Boo saga on TV subbed (it wasn't even out in the US) and being confused. Like I understood it was out there first, but I guess I wasn't aware of dubs/subs at that time so it confused me. :roll:

It wasn't until Dragon Ball began airing on Toonami, and I heard how different the music sounded, that I slowly began putting pieces together. That, and OG Dragon Ball's greater emphasis on mysticism and kung fu (not that these aren't still factors in Z, but it was more heavily emphasized early on). But yeah...going from the original Kikuchi score in the Dragon Ball dub, then onto the Faulconer and co. score, etc. was always jarring for me. It wasn't until I was actively googling information on Dragon Ball in my teens that I knew the Japanese version was the original.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:09 am

At seven years old I knew within 2 seconds of looking at Goku that that motherfucker was Chinese like Jackie Chan or some shit.
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Re: Was Dragon Ball iconic enough to distinguish itself from its roots?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:33 am

Image

When I think back to the first promo image I ever saw of DBZ, this is what comes to mind. I think all I thought as a kid was "They have eyes like Sonic the Hedgehog." You know, heavily stylized triangles, small pupils. In restrospect, the Asian/Japanese influences are obvious, particularly with Goku and Krillin's training gi and Goku's nyoibou, but as a kid I knew jack about that. I didn't know who or what the hell any of these guys were; I just thought they looked cool. :lol: Then again, I was watching Jackie Chan Adventures around this same time, so I must've known something about Chinese aesthetics.

I do think there's something about DBZ stylistically where it sometimes draws people who wouldn't normally check out anime.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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