Should non canon characters become canon?

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SupremeKai25
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:21 pm

I don't see the """trauma""" at all.

When I look at Old Broly, all I see is a manchild who destroys an entire galaxy because a baby next to him cried a lot.

Normally a villain being a manchild wouldn't be a problem, but Broly is meant to be an unstoppable killing machine, so the fact that his "backstory" portrays him as the ultimate manchild isn't exactly a point in his favour. Manchildren don't evoke fear or terror, they become memes, and that's why Broly's backstory is genuinely a meme.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:21 pm I don't see the """trauma""" at all.

When I look at Old Broly, all I see is a manchild who destroys an entire galaxy because a baby next to him cried a lot.

Normally a villain being a manchild wouldn't be a problem, but Broly is meant to be an unstoppable killing machine, so the fact that his "backstory" portrays him as the ultimate manchild isn't exactly a point in his favour. Manchildren don't evoke fear or terror, they become memes, and that's why Broly's backstory is genuinely a meme.
Koyama’s Broly is also really boring. When fans have to defend him with “Well nothing outright said Goku’s crying triggered him!” without providing an alternative explanation for why he has it out for Goku it doesn’t speak well of his characterization which is….non existent.

Toriyama’s Broly at least resembles an actual character.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:30 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:21 pm I don't see the """trauma""" at all.

When I look at Old Broly, all I see is a manchild who destroys an entire galaxy because a baby next to him cried a lot.

Normally a villain being a manchild wouldn't be a problem, but Broly is meant to be an unstoppable killing machine, so the fact that his "backstory" portrays him as the ultimate manchild isn't exactly a point in his favour. Manchildren don't evoke fear or terror, they become memes, and that's why Broly's backstory is genuinely a meme.
Do you really need to be told that ceaseless crying unmitigated by an uncaring hospital staff mixed in with nearly being killed and then raised by an abusive parent is going to lead to trauma?
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:31 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:19 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:08 pm The movie makes a point about how Goku and Broly’s fates are intertwined, due to them having been born on the same day. Paragus suggests that Broly’s hatred towards Goku is because Goku awakened his “fighting instincts” as a Saiyan. You can also make the potential argument that Broly associates Goku with his traumatic experience of having been stabbed and left for dead as an infant.
Too bad the movie failed to convey that characterization effectively
I said it was a potential argument that you could use. The official explanation the movie gives is that Broly is obsessed with Goku because of his Saiyan instincts. That’s what Paragus plainly states. The crying is just a visual metaphor.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:35 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:30 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:21 pm I don't see the """trauma""" at all.

When I look at Old Broly, all I see is a manchild who destroys an entire galaxy because a baby next to him cried a lot.

Normally a villain being a manchild wouldn't be a problem, but Broly is meant to be an unstoppable killing machine, so the fact that his "backstory" portrays him as the ultimate manchild isn't exactly a point in his favour. Manchildren don't evoke fear or terror, they become memes, and that's why Broly's backstory is genuinely a meme.
Do you really need to be told that ceaseless crying unmitigated by an uncaring hospital staff mixed in with nearly being killed and then raised by an abusive parent is going to lead to trauma?
When it involves the subject doing this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7jEiiT5RDo

Yes.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:58 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:35 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:30 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:21 pm I don't see the """trauma""" at all.

When I look at Old Broly, all I see is a manchild who destroys an entire galaxy because a baby next to him cried a lot.

Normally a villain being a manchild wouldn't be a problem, but Broly is meant to be an unstoppable killing machine, so the fact that his "backstory" portrays him as the ultimate manchild isn't exactly a point in his favour. Manchildren don't evoke fear or terror, they become memes, and that's why Broly's backstory is genuinely a meme.
Do you really need to be told that ceaseless crying unmitigated by an uncaring hospital staff mixed in with nearly being killed and then raised by an abusive parent is going to lead to trauma?
When it involves the subject doing this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7jEiiT5RDo

Yes.
I dunno, I don't have magical powers but I'm willing to bet a life time of being traumatized and raised to kill while using your magical powers is going to lead to some bad shit happening.

Which is besides the point, really. The point is that making fun of trauma (and hyper-sensitivity) is honestly tired and bad, actually.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:32 pm

I don't see much of a character i new Broly beyond a hackneyed stab at giving depth. A sad backstory isn't depth.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:38 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:58 pm I dunno, I don't have magical powers but I'm willing to bet a life time of being traumatized and raised to kill while using your magical powers is going to lead to some bad shit happening.

Which is besides the point, really. The point is that making fun of trauma (and hyper-sensitivity) is honestly tired and bad, actually.
I mean, that part of the backstory isn't what people are making fun of. In fact, people actually loved it when Broly's canon backstory focused more on the "raised to kill by an abusive parent" angle. Again, what people are making fun of is the laughably bad "Broly hates Kakarot because he cried too much" plot point. Making fun of trauma isn't good, but making fun of ridiculous plot contrivances is in my opinion.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:51 pm

I'm not that crazy about the screaming "Kakarot" and never have been, but I don't feel like that takes away from Z Broly's menacing screen presence or appeal design-wise. I feel the former gets overemphasized in favor of the things that work about him on-screen.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Peach » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:18 am

I would like to see Cooler remade and Pikkon included in a modern story.

But I think we should stop caring about "canon" and just be happy whenever high quality Dragon Ball is made - regardless of who makes it or whether Akira adds his rubber stamp of approval. This franchise will outlive its original creator and will continue to receive movies, shows, and specials every couple of years made by tons of different authors. Much like Lupin the Third.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Zephyr » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:40 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:25 pmWhen fans have to defend him with “Well nothing outright said Goku’s crying triggered him!” without providing an alternative explanation for why he has it out for Goku it doesn’t speak well of his characterization which is….non existent.
But....WittyUsername already mentioned the actual reason in this thread. Twice!

Have some screenshots, too.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:52 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:16 pm
Kappa wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:00 pm Well, I'm a big GT fan and i think it would be cool to see these characters reimagined. That's it, really.
Why not just create new characters?
Because, think of writing characters as like, uhhh...inventing a child. Your child. And you have to raise it until your book or series is complete. Unless you kill them.haracter development is extremely difficult to get exactly right. Not to mention that character development is extremely difficult to get exactly right.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:06 pm

If they decided to have Toriyama recreate Coola, I want to see him as a good guy. We never had a good guy in Freeza's race outside of Heroes.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:47 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:06 pm If they decided to have Toriyama recreate Coola, I want to see him as a good guy. We never had a good guy in Freeza's race outside of Heroes.
A lot of fanmade pitches I've seen for a Cooler reboot emphasise him being the black sheep of the clan, which I might be on board with if it's done well. Making him a straight hero may be too much in light of Frost pulling the same card (for real in the manga, at least at first) but being made persona non grata by his father for not pursuing the family business as expected, explaining why nobody ever mentions him. The only issue is that, like Tarble, there'd be few ways to make his return feel natural at this point.

Many old "non-canon" characters have at least something cool going for them that could stand to be expanded upon, but in most cases, they can be easily transplanted onto a new character without digging up the old one wholesale. We've seen that with characters like Hit, who basically fills Paikuhan's role as a friendly rival to Goku but with a few new twists. One example I'd like to see is something taken from Tullece. Alone, the dude doesn't interest me, he's just another evil Saiyan, but a small nugget of his offscreen backstory is that he gathered a loyal squad of friends and followers after many adventures and battles across the galaxy, like a true Goku foil. You could take that one tiny detail and expand it into something more unique and interesting.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:34 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:52 pm
ABED wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:16 pm
Kappa wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:00 pm Well, I'm a big GT fan and i think it would be cool to see these characters reimagined. That's it, really.
Why not just create new characters?
Because, think of writing characters as like, uhhh...inventing a child. Your child. And you have to raise it until your book or series is complete. Unless you kill them.haracter development is extremely difficult to get exactly right. Not to mention that character development is extremely difficult to get exactly right.
So because it's difficult, they shouldn't create new characters.

And putting characters out of continuity into continuity isn't character development.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:21 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:47 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:06 pm If they decided to have Toriyama recreate Coola, I want to see him as a good guy. We never had a good guy in Freeza's race outside of Heroes.
A lot of fanmade pitches I've seen for a Cooler reboot emphasise him being the black sheep of the clan, which I might be on board with if it's done well. Making him a straight hero may be too much in light of Frost pulling the same card (for real in the manga, at least at first) but being made persona non grata by his father for not pursuing the family business as expected, explaining why nobody ever mentions him. The only issue is that, like Tarble, there'd be few ways to make his return feel natural at this point.

Many old "non-canon" characters have at least something cool going for them that could stand to be expanded upon, but in most cases, they can be easily transplanted onto a new character without digging up the old one wholesale. We've seen that with characters like Hit, who basically fills Paikuhan's role as a friendly rival to Goku but with a few new twists. One example I'd like to see is something taken from Tullece. Alone, the dude doesn't interest me, he's just another evil Saiyan, but a small nugget of his offscreen backstory is that he gathered a loyal squad of friends and followers after many adventures and battles across the galaxy, like a true Goku foil. You could take that one tiny detail and expand it into something more unique and interesting.
If Freeza is an conservative then maybe make Coola into a different kind of threat that still aligns him against Gokuu? Maybe as a neoliberal?

Freeza: wants to control the people by controlling the housing market.
Gokuu: wants to destroy the housing market to give the people guaranteed housing.
Coola: wants to make the housing market 'nicer' without actually solving the root issue: the existence of a housing market.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:29 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:21 pm If Freeza is an conservative then maybe make Coola into a different kind of threat that still aligns him against Gokuu? Maybe as a neoliberal?

Freeza: wants to control the people by controlling the housing market.
Gokuu: wants to destroy the housing market to give the people guaranteed housing.
Coola: wants to make the housing market 'nicer' without actually solving the root issue: the existence of a housing market.
One of the single worst understandings of how markets work. And once again, the cure is worse than the disease. Nope the issue isn't scarcity or insane housing laws that limit the building of new houses, interest rates being pushed to insane low thus inflating housing bubbles. Nope, it's that there should be no market for housing. M'kay.

For whatever lack of understanding Toriyama has about the Japanese real estate bubble, at least that's all surface level social commentary. He didn't forget to have fun and tell a story.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:47 pm

What would you guys's reaction be if they decided to take characters from fanmade DB games? For example, the DB-based characters from Warriors of the Universe (Literally nobody has heard of this Android game outside of the Americas {mainly South Americans} so just Google it, I don't have the time to tell u about it), Erbito and the Berserker Saiyan. Erbito is basically just Goku wearing a Boo arc Vegeta outfit with Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue, and the Berserker Saiyan is basically the fusion of Z Broli and Cumber. He has what seems to be a new Super Saiyan form that makes him taller, more muscular, his eyes go blank, and his hair gets bigger and red. Hell, they don't have to take just the Dragon Ball-based characters. They could even take the knockoff versions of Deadpool (AKA Hunter), the Flash and Reverse Flash (Voltz and Reverse Voltz), Ichigo (Kashi), Naruto (Kaaru), and the two female characters who are surprisingly original - Yukiko (ice powers) and Arashi (wind powers). Me, my friends, and a lot of South Americans would probably love to see a Warriors of the Universe anime. I'm so excited I might make a thread about it!
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Goten_jr » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:04 am

GT as a series is obsolete because it's never going to get another release, it's never going to be expanded upon. It just sits in its bubble as the world of Dragon Ball grows in a different direction. I can see how people have a hard time with that.
For me personally i think GT only becomes fully "obsolete” when Dragon Ball Super goes past the EOZ.As long as Modern DB stays/ends in the 10 year timeskip.GT is going to be the only Official/Toriyama approved Story (atleast in Anime form) that Is Set up after the Original Ending

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:38 am

Goten_jr wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:04 am
GT as a series is obsolete because it's never going to get another release, it's never going to be expanded upon. It just sits in its bubble as the world of Dragon Ball grows in a different direction. I can see how people have a hard time with that.
For me personally i think GT only becomes fully "obsolete” when Dragon Ball Super goes past the EOZ.As long as Modern DB stays/ends in the 10 year timeskip.GT is going to be the only Official/Toriyama approved Story (atleast in Anime form) that Is Set up after the Original Ending
Since the new movie is very close to the End of Z (Pan is no longer a baby), it's actually looking very likely that Super will replace GT as the Canonical sequel to DBZ.

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