Should non canon characters become canon?

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:10 am

TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:37 am It's not the fans' fault that the series is being taken down the path that it's being taken down.
But it's fans fault they approve that. Sales and reception make it clear for them that people agree on laziness Super is known for. We're going to see more things like Golden Frieza, Goku Black or character reboots for that reason, because there is no point in coming with creative things if people just accept what they're given. It saddens me this is what franchise has become after such good and original movie Battle of Gods was.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:58 am

That moment when you did something wrong just because you like Goku Black.

Even though Black as a character genuinely shits on any Non-canon villain, but I digress :lol:

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:35 am

ABED wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:39 am
But it's not well funded fan fiction. I saw a ton of people incredibly happy that The Flash multiverse making "it all count" as though those things didn't matter unless its some part of something bigger. When we say "it's on the shelf" we aren't saying it's on the level of well funded fanfiction. We're saying it's there to be enjoyed regardless because that's what it all is there for. Whether it's canon or not, the whole point of ANY of this is to be enjoyed whether it's stand alone or canon, or even fan fiction.
I guess the point is that people don't like feeling like it's obsolete, which is what it is now. If Windows 10 was the end and it just lasted forever off of minimal updates, that would be fine. But if you're told that Windows 10 is the last and then 20 years later, Wondows 11 comes out, then Windows 10 is obsolete. GT as a series is obsolete because it's never going to get another release, it's never going to be expanded upon. It just sits in its bubble as the world of Dragon Ball grows in a different direction. I can see how people have a hard time with that. I stopped caring some time ago, but my initial reaction to Super's changes was sadness that the story that existed for so long was now obsolete. Since then, I don't care. But I still sympathize. I understand the feeling even if I don't share it. And you don't have to share it nor understand it, just sympathize with it. And stop telling people that their feelings about the series are wrong just because they feel a certain way that you don't. We go around preaching how it means something to everyone, but then try to convince others to feel about it like we do.

By the same token, the powers that be are trying to give fans what they want. There's a little bit of chicken and egg going on.
They don't have to give in. They were free to do whatever they wanted, but instead, the decision was made to bring back Freeza, Trunks, Vegetto, a version of Broli, and then finally, Broli and Gogeta. Don't blame the fans on that one--Toei still has final say in what they release.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:58 am That moment when you did something wrong just because you like Goku Black.

Even though Black as a character genuinely shits on any Non-canon villain, but I digress :lol:
What are we talking about here?

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:05 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:35 am What are we talking about here?
Hm? About people in here saying that those who like Golden Frieza or Goku Black are apparently ruining the franchise :roll:

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:18 pm

I don't see a connection between Freeza and Black, though. One is a character coming back, the other one is a brand new character, stealing an existing character's body.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:25 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:18 pm I don't see a connection between Freeza and Black, though. One is a character coming back, the other one is a brand new character, stealing an existing character's body.
Try explaining that to the people who genuinely think Black is Turles 2.0 or, lol, Ginyu 2.0.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:26 pm

this whole thing of getting rid of GT and make it non cannon always gives me a head ache....

The whole problem originated with DB super, when they wanted to continue the story before GT, instead of afterwards and explore the new next generation of warriors, Pan had so much potential, Uub and even Goten and Trunks if they were to continue to train and even Bra could join, but no, they wanted to play it safe and make the Goku and Vegeta show.
Well, I'm a big GT fan and i think it would be cool to see these characters reimagined. That's it, really.

Yeah, same way they brought and reboot broly for the new DB super era. I agree with you, seing a new Baby is better than have him forgotten at all.

At the end dragon ball fandom is dividing into three:
1) the cult fans= nostalgic people who watch DB on TV as it was being first aired and that know and accept GT as part of what Toriyama was involved in, as the ORIGINAL work.

2) the new fans= people that watched Kai or DB super as their first encounter with DB and became a fan of the series, they would accept stuff not created by toriyama.

3) the gamefans= people who knows dragon ball mostly cause either plays videogames or cardgames.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:44 pm

Saiya6Cit wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:26 pm Yeah, same way they brought and reboot broly for the new DB super era. I agree with you, seing a new Baby is better than have him forgotten at all.
The things is, those characters are not getting forgotten. In fact, i'd say the easiest way to make them forgotten is to rewrite them.

If someone is getting forgotten, it means no one needs to see them reimagined as they're not popular or are irrelevant.
If they are not forgotten, then also one needs to see them reimagined, cause they're fine the way they are. Movie and GT characters are still appearing in games and Heroes. They're doing just fine.

That's especially dumb for someone as popular as Broly. He was never forgotten and wouldn't be for a looong time. His character was still making a lot of money. What's the point of rewriting him other than now having TWO characters to milk money? Old Broly didn't even get erased or became less popular, he is the one appearing in Heroes now and getting new SSJ4 variant, not the new Broly. And he will still appear in most of games as well.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:45 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:51 am The problem I found with the "making non-canon characters canon" thing was that, in light of the new movie's announcement, it became an extremely predictable discussion and showed a severe lack of creative ambition in the fandom at large. 98% of discussions about predicting the next Super movie revolved around "who's gonna be made canon next, Cooler or Janemba?" As much as people talk about modern DB being creatively bankrupt, I had faith from the outset that they weren't going to do the exact same thing twice in a row. However, by the looks of things, Superhero will be digging up the past in a not altogether different way, just with the Red Ribbon Army this time.

The only characters I would be kinda interested in getting the Broly treatment are characters that had wasted potential in their debuts like the Shadow Dragons. For all GT's flaws, Baby was the one character executed well in my view, so I'm not hankering for his return, plus we have had more than enough Saiyan revenge plots recently. As for Cooler and Janemba, I think they both served their purposes as well. Cooler may have some more gas in the tank in terms of developing his relationship with Freeza, but he'll always be Freeza-lite to me. Janemba, I have no clue what people expect out of him. One of his most iconic abilities is his unique Lego-block teleportation effect, but the animators admitted it would be too laborious to do with modern technology, so it's like what's even the point in bringing him back.
I mostly agree with this, although the Red Ribbon connection feels more of natural story point to me, and less of a "Hey, everyone loved these guys, right? So let's bring them back!" But yes, all of the talk of Cooler, Janemba, etc. being made canon feels like the Dragon Ball fandom is setting a ceiling for itself. It's one of the reasons I'm happy Raditz has stayed dead and that he's not that popular in general; I think it better serves his character.
TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:37 am A pat on the back note saying, "I wouldn't have done it, but got job, guys," is not really the same. And your comments about GT are just as valid for Broli and Gogeta. But, those were made into canon. So, I guess fans might naturally wonder if GT--or elements of it--could get the same treatment. After all, Toriyama did
Sure, but I personally didn't ever need for them to be made canon. Even if they were only relegated to the Z movies, they would've been legacy characters to me. And their place in the Z movies is still cemented, as that came first. I think it's cool we're seeing them again, but I feel that way moreso because we're seeing the characters again than because of some canon. And honestly, I still wouldn't want any other major Z movie villains or GT characters/forms coming into Super. I still don't feel like GT is invalidated because nothing's being done with it. I mean, my favorite DBZ movie is Movie 2, but I highly doubt we'll be seeing Dr. Wheelo show up anywhere anytime soon.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:58 am That moment when you did something wrong just because you like Goku Black.

Even though Black as a character genuinely shits on any Non-canon villain, but I digress :lol:
He's clearly speaking as someone who doesn't like the concept of Goku Black (plus things like Golden Frieza, etc.), not saying you're wrong for liking the character.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:42 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:45 pm I mostly agree with this, although the Red Ribbon connection feels more of natural story point to me, and less of a "Hey, everyone loved these guys, right? So let's bring them back!" But yes, all of the talk of Cooler, Janemba, etc. being made canon feels like the Dragon Ball fandom is setting a ceiling for itself. It's one of the reasons I'm happy Raditz has stayed dead and that he's not that popular in general; I think it better serves his character.
Yeah, I can appreciate that the RRA wasn't purely brought back for hype. You could almost miss their involvement in the trailers, plus it seems to be made up of all new members. I'm still iffy on the whole idea of their return, but I'll have to wait to judge.

I'm not sure about how natural it feels though. Dragon Ball's modern direction hasn't felt organic in a long time. For most of Super, it felt like Toriyama and co. wanted to take a fairly straightforward, consistent and purposeful direction for the most part.
  • Beerus arc -- Introduces the higher levels of godhood and hints at the multiverse's existence.
  • Universe 6 arc -- Gives us our first proper glimpse of a parallel universe and its fighters.
  • Zamasu arc -- Centres on a corrupted Kaio from Universe 10 attacking the Future timeline.
  • Universe Survival arc -- Toriyama just goes "fuck it" and tells his boys to throw the strongest mortals from eight out of the twelve universes in a massive rumble.
At first the Golden Freeza arc felt like a brief detour, but the Broly, Moro and Granola arcs all seem to take more notes from that movie, dialling the scale back to Universe 7 while dialling up the nostalgic/fanservicey elements (though the anime's Tournament of Power also felt like one long nostalgia tour). With Superhero, I no longer have any idea what purpose or intention the creators have in mind for this series. While rarely outright bad, it's starting to feel kinda random and arbitrary.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:11 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:32 am No.

I can't think of any non-canon character from the Movies or GT who would be a worthwhile addition to the Canon cast. They are all very generic and forgettable.
And just like how DBS Broly made a more interesting Broly, the same can be said for any character from the movies or GT, or specials. And if they bring an already existing character into the main canon, we can assume they will have a similar base but be about as different as OG Broli to DBS Broly.

I, myself, don't hate GT. It had a lot over interesting ideals. I would be very interested in seeing a different take on Baby and the shadow dragons. The end results will be something bad, something meh, or something good. All of which has no effect on your enjoyment of Z.

Also, what's up with so many comments about how other people act, react, and enjoy their fandom?
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:01 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:11 pm Also, what's up with so many comments about how other people act, react, and enjoy their fandom?
I don't feel like this is what's been happening.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:08 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:35 am
ABED wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:39 am
But it's not well funded fan fiction. I saw a ton of people incredibly happy that The Flash multiverse making "it all count" as though those things didn't matter unless its some part of something bigger. When we say "it's on the shelf" we aren't saying it's on the level of well funded fanfiction. We're saying it's there to be enjoyed regardless because that's what it all is there for. Whether it's canon or not, the whole point of ANY of this is to be enjoyed whether it's stand alone or canon, or even fan fiction.
I guess the point is that people don't like feeling like it's obsolete, which is what it is now. If Windows 10 was the end and it just lasted forever off of minimal updates, that would be fine. But if you're told that Windows 10 is the last and then 20 years later, Wondows 11 comes out, then Windows 10 is obsolete. GT as a series is obsolete because it's never going to get another release, it's never going to be expanded upon. It just sits in its bubble as the world of Dragon Ball grows in a different direction. I can see how people have a hard time with that. I stopped caring some time ago, but my initial reaction to Super's changes was sadness that the story that existed for so long was now obsolete. Since then, I don't care. But I still sympathize. I understand the feeling even if I don't share it. And you don't have to share it nor understand it, just sympathize with it. And stop telling people that their feelings about the series are wrong just because they feel a certain way that you don't. We go around preaching how it means something to everyone, but then try to convince others to feel about it like we do.

By the same token, the powers that be are trying to give fans what they want. There's a little bit of chicken and egg going on.
They don't have to give in. They were free to do whatever they wanted, but instead, the decision was made to bring back Freeza, Trunks, Vegetto, a version of Broli, and then finally, Broli and Gogeta. Don't blame the fans on that one--Toei still has final say in what they release.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:58 am That moment when you did something wrong just because you like Goku Black.

Even though Black as a character genuinely shits on any Non-canon villain, but I digress :lol:
What are we talking about here?
That is a really bad analogy. GT, like any piece of art, is what it is. It's not a piece of software that has to change by it's nature. GT isn't obsolete. Again, it's there for people to watch and enjoy. Streaming and home video keeps it alive. And I do think those people are foolish. What the hell does it even mean for something like GT to be "valid"? I don't sympathize with them. It's a silly thing to get upset about.

I absolutely blame the fans on fan-service issue. If there isn't anything to appeal to, there's no fan-service.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:13 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:11 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:32 am No.

I can't think of any non-canon character from the Movies or GT who would be a worthwhile addition to the Canon cast. They are all very generic and forgettable.
And just like how DBS Broly made a more interesting Broly, the same can be said for any character from the movies or GT, or specials. And if they bring an already existing character into the main canon, we can assume they will have a similar base but be about as different as OG Broli to DBS Broly.

I, myself, don't hate GT. It had a lot over interesting ideals. I would be very interested in seeing a different take on Baby and the shadow dragons. The end results will be something bad, something meh, or something good. All of which has no effect on your enjoyment of Z.

Also, what's up with so many comments about how other people act, react, and enjoy their fandom?
In fact I was not happy with Broly being the antagonist of the movie. Of course New Broly is better than Old Broly, it's not hard to be better than a literal screaming lunatic who is mad because the MC cried when he was a baby. But at the same time, I would have preferred a fresh new villain for the movie, maybe a Saiyan from ancient times, or from one of the erased universes (assuming that the plot point from the end of the ToP wasn't wasted completely).

That New Broly turned out to be better is not a surprise because Old Broly genuinely was dogshit as a character, I still remember that I was disappointed when it was revealed Broly was the antagonist. I'd like to avoid a repeat of that.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:15 pm

The new Broly isn't better. At least the old Broly had a presence. This new one is a hollow retread and comes with a cliched backstory.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:02 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:15 pm The new Broly isn't better. At least the old Broly had a presence. This new one is a hollow retread and comes with a cliched backstory.
He's a better fleshed out character. OGB did have more presence, but he was more of a "force of nature" that needed to be defeated. NuBroli was a character I kind cared about and disliked how he was being used by others. And I like that Goku has another rival that's technically stronger than him.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:04 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:15 pm The new Broly isn't better. At least the old Broly had a presence. This new one is a hollow retread and comes with a cliched backstory.
Yeah i'm still surprised people call old Broly a screaming savage when that's exactly what new Broly is. Somehow when people talk about Broly they think about awful movie 10 version. Broly in his debut talked a lot after transformation and was pretty inteligent overall, he was only gloomy because of device Paragus put on him. New Broly is basically movie 10 Broly, except that instead of screaming one word he just screams no words. He is only maybe a better character before transformation, but any sign of anger turns him into M10 Broly instantly giving us exactly what people hate OG Broly for, but times 5.

And i'll keep saying that having most stupid reason to fight Goku is better than no reason. Back in M8, Paragus had his things to settle with Vegeta, while Broly had things to settle with Goku. That created interesting scenario and justified both characters roles in that movie. In case of new Broly, both Paragus and Broly hate Vegeta, they do not know who Goku is. Goku is thrown there because he is main character. His involvement in that fight is not justified in any way other than stopping rampaging Broly who lost control over himself. When old Broly attacked someone like Gohan, he did that on purpose since he knew it will hurt Goku.
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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:32 pm

Broly is another one of those cases (like with GT due to Super) where my appreciation for the older version deepened due to the new version. I actually like the new Broly...but he's a different character with a few of the same surface-level traits. Z Broly has an incredible, frightening presence, and watching clips of him in Japanese (with the original dialogue), or even playing as him in FighterZ has contributed to my improved opinion of him. The current Broly would not even exist as is without Z Broly's popularity.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should non canon characters become canon?

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:43 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:02 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:15 pm The new Broly isn't better. At least the old Broly had a presence. This new one is a hollow retread and comes with a cliched backstory.
He's a better fleshed out character. OGB did have more presence, but he was more of a "force of nature" that needed to be defeated. NuBroli was a character I kind cared about and disliked how he was being used by others. And I like that Goku has another rival that's technically stronger than him.
But he's not fleshed out, he has a stock "my father abused me" motivation.
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