Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:36 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:34 pm That kind of works for DC, though. Albeit, I think the creation of the current Earth-0 wasn't handled the best (I really liked the early Rebirth Superman stuff before Superman Reborn).
Well Rebirth wouldn't have been a thing if a lot of longtime fans didn't hate the New 52. Rebirth intially was largely a return to the post-Crisis pre-New 52 continuity/status quo. And even now Rebirth is no longer the status quo. Whether it works or not, it's extremely convoluted, and I don't need that for Dragon Ball or any manga.

Also, Rebirth Superman worked because it was a good story with great new character dynamics. Not because it's a reboot. That same type of storytelling should be possible without having to un-canon something. But regardless, my main point here is that you can't decanonize something that was canon. Even with reboots and Flashpoint/Crisis/Convergence type stories, they still acknowledge the previous versions of events as having happened. If the reboot comes as a result of previous events, there is no logical way they can't be canon. Point A still led to point B which led to Point C.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:06 pm

Maybe it wouldn't be "simple", but just as long as it's not convoluted, then alternate canons or whatever would be fine. DC's problem was that it got convoluted, not that it did reboots altogether. Dragon Ball could reboot without going overboard. And the value in doing so is for the sake of the story. All new possibilities for the story are created by altering reality like that.

Yeah, sure technically it's all still "canon", that's fine. They can choose to acknowledge or not acknowledge the previous events if they want, but the end result would still be the same. They would still be taking the story in new and interesting directions.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:37 pm

I can't imagine a Dragon Ball reboot with writing a character out being interesting or rewarding. Even with some of Roshi's less-than-stellar antics, the thought of seeing the story without him does not sound in any way appealing to me. There's no one else I would want written out, either.

And we have enough different animated versions of the original story, like the 3 OG DB movies and Path to Power. That's enough for me.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:21 am

I could do with a reboot of Roshi. I think it's okay that he's attracted to women and pervy and all, but some of his more hands-on moments and the like are in poor taste. We know that there are scumbags out there like that, but we're not meant to root for them. So, I'd be okay with Roshi getting rewritten to be less of the physical and more of the oggling type of perv. I could ago go without the thought that Gohan would let Goku sleep on his balls. But, these are characters (moreso Roshi) that can't really be "made non-canon." Just retcon his antics and I think that would be fine.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:50 am

TheGreatness25 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:21 am I could do with a reboot of Roshi. I think it's okay that he's attracted to women and pervy and all, but some of his more hands-on moments and the like are in poor taste. We know that there are scumbags out there like that, but we're not meant to root for them. So, I'd be okay with Roshi getting rewritten to be less of the physical and more of the oggling type of perv. I could ago go without the thought that Gohan would let Goku sleep on his balls. But, these are characters (moreso Roshi) that can't really be "made non-canon." Just retcon his antics and I think that would be fine.
Like, I'm all for #Antics...in the appropriate context. A project aimed at kids (which is, like, 99% of Dragon Ball projects) is not the place for those things.
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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:26 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:37 pm I can't imagine a Dragon Ball reboot with writing a character out being interesting or rewarding. Even with some of Roshi's less-than-stellar antics, the thought of seeing the story without him does not sound in any way appealing to me. There's no one else I would want written out, either.

And we have enough different animated versions of the original story, like the 3 OG DB movies and Path to Power. That's enough for me.
The story wouldn't necessarily have to start over. The timeline could be altered in some manner and then continue moving forwards from the present. Like suddenly Roshi is Goku's grandfather who took him in as a baby. Or Vegeta's not around anymore because now Goku is said to be the sole survivor of the Saiyan race. Or Goku and Chichi were never married. That sort of thing.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by BeaBumby » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:58 am

I like Roshi and I feel like I shouldn't
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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:51 am

BeaBumby wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:58 am I like Roshi and I feel like I shouldn't
I love Roshi. I think it's ok to enjoy fictional characters no matter what their actions or nature may be.

Why exactly do you feel that way about Roshi? Personally I think that if you like someone or something, you shouldn't deny it or let anything stop it.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:02 am

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:51 am
BeaBumby wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:58 am I like Roshi and I feel like I shouldn't
I love Roshi. I think it's ok to enjoy fictional characters no matter what their actions or nature may be.
I agree to an extent. But it’s also kind of does matter as to why you like certain characters.


If you like a loud and racist character (actually racist not a Freeza type character whose racism is only applied to fictional species) do you like them because they express their bigoted views in a comedic way that you find funny i.e their own ignorance and audacity is what you enjoy or do you agree with what they’re saying?


One big difference between fictional characters and realreal people is you can separate certain aspects of a character you don’t like to enjoy the whole where you can’t really do that with people. I don’t like Roshi’s sexual lechery but can enjoy the character in spite of that because I like him as the kooky old man who is also a wise mentor who gives sage advice to Goku and Krillin. I would not condone or enjoy a real life Master Roshi.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:58 pm

Either way you slice it, there are countless fictional characters people enjoy because they feel they're entertaining to watch onscreen, even if (or because) their actions are reprehensible. There's a reason so many people love villainous characters. However (and I'm not getting too deep into this, as I know there was recently a thread that got way out-of-control concerning Roshi) the way Roshi's pervertedness was depicted in Dragon Ball, especially with it being a children's manga/anime, does reflect a generally lax cultural attitude in Japan on things like sexual assault, which is an issue society in general doesn't take seriously enough. You don't have to hate Roshi to see that. Sure, the response to it by the characters doesn't condone it, but after he's reprimanded, it's usually forgotten and/or laughed at and treated as harmless. Whereas Lunch firing bullets into a crowd to get better seats at the Tenkaichi Budokai...obviously everyone knows that wouldn't fly in real life.

Depending on the degree of the joke, I occasionally find it funny, but usually only when Roshi gets whacked upside the head (which I guess is pretty often, but I find that itself more funny than the pervyness). If the pervertnedness was all there was to Roshi's character, it would be easy to write him off. But there is so, SO much more to him that is the beating heart of the series. He's the one who instills in Goku and Krillin the desire to be better people, and to continually better themselves as martial artists. He instills in them the mentality that there are always bigger fish, no matter how tough you are. His dynamic with Tenshinhan in the Tenshinhan and King Piccolo arcs is my favorite mentor/pupil relationship that Toriyama has ever written. His sacrifice using the Mafuba against King Piccolo.... At his best, he is one of Dragon Ball's greatest characters. The dialed-up pervy jokes are an unfortunate product of the time, but they overall don't diminish the character's enormous impact on the series.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by BeaBumby » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:32 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:51 am
BeaBumby wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:58 am I like Roshi and I feel like I shouldn't
I love Roshi. I think it's ok to enjoy fictional characters no matter what their actions or nature may be.

Why exactly do you feel that way about Roshi? Personally I think that if you like someone or something, you shouldn't deny it or let anything stop it.
I appreciate the mentor side of Roshi.
The Roshi that fought both Goku and Krillin to teach them there are stronger opponents out there, and you should rise even further beyond your potential. The Roshi that convinced Tien he isn't the cold-blooded killer he thought he was.

Jackie Chun, essentially.
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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:33 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:32 pm Jackie Chun, essentially.
Didn't "Jackie Chun" try to fondle Ran Fan's butt when she was knocked out?
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Re: Should Canon Characters become Non Canon?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:17 pm

Jackie Chun has all of Roshi's quirks, down to the pervyness, he's just showcasing the martial artist side of himself more fully. But there's no real difference between Chun and "serious" Roshi besides the glued-on wig.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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