FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

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FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Shiningboltsurge » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:43 pm

One issue I see come up on this forum is how misrepresented DBZ is in the English anglosphere. It's conditioning is dissident to the original language version, and its blunders tend to bleed into other foreign language dubs.

I've known this for 10 years, but have reconfirmed it from time to time. It's also shocking how little attention these acts have drawn. Maybe it's because of the time it was made? A time where most didn't even EXPECT dubs to be faithful? A time where plotlines were altered as a matter of course?

This was the case in some of the sub branches of the original production companies, starting with France's infamous A&B group.

In addition, they pumped Toei's titles all over Europe and paved the way for Hiam Saban entering the business (who himself also made waves in France before moving over to America). With Italy sometimes being the head of this business as well.

Then that business model was seen as viable. So began the dawn of former classics getting butchered, reprocessed, and peddled via French products--without the heart and soul of the original. That would serve as the westernized base for other languages across the most adjacent and prominent regions. Before this base operation later came over to America through saban doc harmony gold and then the last hurrah being well 4kids signaling the death of trends that really started in the 70’s in France

Of course, the native Japanese audience never consumed these adulterated products--but everyone else did. Thus, one could almost argue that the hackjobs viewed by the rest of the world are more "canon" than the original version itself.

This is the legacy of overseas DBZ--a legacy of unregulated business practices, fostered by the minds of foreign dubbing companies.
Last edited by Shiningboltsurge on Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:24 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids descriptualization of the series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:31 pm

This post seems to be quite interesting and thought provoking... but I cant read it because its a block of text. Please use the enter key more!
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids descriptualization of the series

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:18 am

Whatever vibe or aura you’re trying to give off, I don’t think it’s working, boss.

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids descriptualization of the series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:43 am

OMG You are right Masenko HA. All of this guys posts are fucking nonsense.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids descriptualization of the series

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:28 pm

They had to follow public TV guidelines for Kai which wasn't their fault. The hate that 4kids gets is dumb when most of their censorship is no different from what Funimation and Saban did back in the day.
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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids descriptualization of the series

Post by Shintoki » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:02 pm

to quote Kaboom's signature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

2 hours of practice a day would do wonders :thumbup:
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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Fionordequester » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:08 pm

For the sake of constructive criticism, I'm going to rewrite your wall of text with proper pronunciation, with some liberties taken to get across what I think you're trying to say.

Please study this carefully--this isn't something I'll do in the future.
Shiningboltsurge wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:43 pm One issue I see come up on this forum is how misrepresented DBZ is in the English anglosphere. It's conditioning is dissident to the original language version, and its blunders tend to bleed into other foreign language dubs.

I've known this for 10 years, but have reconfirmed it from time to time. It's also shocking how little attention these acts have drawn. Maybe it's because of the time it was made? A time where most didn't even EXPECT dubs to be faithful? A time where plotlines were altered as a matter of course?

This was the case in some of the sub branches of the original production companies, starting with France's infamous A&B group.

In addition, they pumped Toei's titles all over Europe and paved the way for Hiam Saban entering the business (who himself also made waves in Italy before moving over to America).

Then that business model was seen as viable. So began the dawn of former classics getting butchered, reprocessed, and peddled via French products--without the heart and soul of the original.

Of course, the native Japanese audience never consumed these adulterated products--but everyone else did. Thus, one could almost argue that the hackjobs viewed by the rest of the world are more "canon" than the original version itself.

This is the legacy of overseas DBZ--a legacy of unregulated business practices, fostered by the minds of foreign dubbing companies.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:21 pm

WOW! THAT WAS AWESOME. I thought no one could decipher that!

And I think 4kids gets too much of a bad rap.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Fionordequester » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:08 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:21 pm WOW! THAT WAS AWESOME. I thought no one could decipher that!

And I think 4kids gets too much of a bad rap.
Aw, thx friend! Though, regarding 4Kids, I'm pretty mixed. I notice their dubs tended to have better performances than a lot of their contemporaries...but it seems like they accomplish that by throwing out large chunks of the original script.

Like, you watch Yu-Gi-Oh Uncut, and you get the most accurate dubbing the series has ever had...but then get some incredibly awkward performances from the actors involved (Kaiba in Episode 1 being the most glaring example...and the most hilarious :lol: )
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Shintoki » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:07 pm

Fionordequester wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:08 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:21 pm WOW! THAT WAS AWESOME. I thought no one could decipher that!

And I think 4kids gets too much of a bad rap.
Aw, thx friend! Though, regarding 4Kids, I'm pretty mixed. I notice their dubs tended to have better performances than a lot of their contemporaries...but it seems like they accomplish that by throwing out large chunks of the original script.

Like, you watch Yu-Gi-Oh Uncut, and you get the most accurate dubbing the series has ever had...but then get some incredibly awkward performances from the actors involved (Kaiba in Episode 1 being the most glaring example...and the most hilarious :lol: )
i stand by the notion that 4kids was one of the worst dubbing companies to ever stumble upon anime, they are the sole reason why one piece reputation in the west is tarnished whereas it's a global phenomena outside of NA.

they made it miracelously work with Yugioh but even then, their lucky didn't stick much once they started being cheapskates about paying for uncut versions of their dub. :evil:
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DragonBallFoodie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:19 am

Dont forget that they dubbed a lot anime that will never get a redub ever. Shaman King looked like it was going to have been going to but no, Diskotek released it subbed.

But I actually and despite all that like 4kids, sure I used to DESPISE them because of One Piece (And keep in mind I'm from Latin America and we used 4kids as a basis in 2006, but it was only recently, that it was redubbed on 2019) but I like them now because they finally seemed to be turning around and doing right by anime. Toonzai was bringing new viewers into the fray and used the mostly well dubbed and lightly edited Nicktoons dub, even if they had to edit it a bit more. They started an uncut anime website where their properties were shown subbed uncut, and last but not least their Saturday Morning Block was the last bastion of an institution that lasted 50 years. And now Kids without cable or internet have nil choices on TV.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:25 am

Shintoki wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:07 pm
Fionordequester wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:08 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:21 pm WOW! THAT WAS AWESOME. I thought no one could decipher that!

And I think 4kids gets too much of a bad rap.
Aw, thx friend! Though, regarding 4Kids, I'm pretty mixed. I notice their dubs tended to have better performances than a lot of their contemporaries...but it seems like they accomplish that by throwing out large chunks of the original script.

Like, you watch Yu-Gi-Oh Uncut, and you get the most accurate dubbing the series has ever had...but then get some incredibly awkward performances from the actors involved (Kaiba in Episode 1 being the most glaring example...and the most hilarious :lol: )
i stand by the notion that 4kids was one of the worst dubbing companies to ever stumble upon anime, they are the sole reason why one piece reputation in the west is tarnished whereas it's a global phenomena outside of NA.

they made it miracelously work with Yugioh but even then, their lucky didn't stick much once they started being cheapskates about paying for uncut versions of their dub. :evil:
4Kids' dubs of the early seasons of Pokemon (roughly Indigo through sometime in Johto) is regarded as one of their better dubs, and the scripts appeared to be mostly accurate to the original changes and such aside and that's not mentioning their rather notorious localization things like Westernizing names of Japanese foods in sometimes ludicrous ways and digitally painting over Japanese text on signs and stuff, and even 20+ years later it still is a decent dub for the time. Nostalgic memories aside, and i do definitely agree that One Piece was their big mistake which granted they didn't actually want to do but Toei played hard ball and kept some other licenses for shows they wanted held up, they were more or less forced to take it.
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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Shiningboltsurge » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:12 pm

Fionordequester wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:08 pm For the sake of constructive criticism, I'm going to rewrite your wall of text with proper pronunciation, with some liberties taken to get across what I think you're trying to say.

Please study this carefully--this isn't something I'll do in the future.
Shiningboltsurge wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:43 pm One issue I see come up on this forum is how misrepresented DBZ is in the English anglosphere. It's conditioning is dissident to the original language version, and its blunders tend to bleed into other foreign language dubs.

I've known this for 10 years, but have reconfirmed it from time to time. It's also shocking how little attention these acts have drawn. Maybe it's because of the time it was made? A time where most didn't even EXPECT dubs to be faithful? A time where plotlines were altered as a matter of course?

This was the case in some of the sub branches of the original production companies, starting with France's infamous A&B group.

In addition, they pumped Toei's titles all over Europe and paved the way for Hiam Saban entering the business (who himself also made waves in Italy before moving over to America).

Then that business model was seen as viable. So began the dawn of former classics getting butchered, reprocessed, and peddled via French products--without the heart and soul of the original.

Of course, the native Japanese audience never consumed these adulterated products--but everyone else did. Thus, one could almost argue that the hackjobs viewed by the rest of the world are more "canon" than the original version itself.

This is the legacy of overseas DBZ--a legacy of unregulated business practices, fostered by the minds of foreign dubbing companies.
thank I wrote on a iPhone keyboard that constantly trying to autocorrect every syllable, so I just came up with the idea to delineate the have it saved them edit back over it, because I don’t trust that it’ll still be around it I try scrolling writing drafting. Leaving me thinking better to have an existent draft to do modified into a final then none at all well at least you cap off that I can’t say thanks enough.

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:31 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:21 pm WOW! THAT WAS AWESOME. I thought no one could decipher that!

And I think 4kids gets too much of a bad rap.
I think 4Kids get a bad rap because they were everything purists hate about anime dubbing. Changed character names, westernizing anything related to Japan, replacement scores, removing even the slightest references to death, absurd censorship like the hand guns in Yu-Gi-Oh, and never releasing shows they licensed on bilingual DVDs. I do have a lot of nostalgia for their dubs though, and the voice actors were all pretty great to be fair, better than a lot of Funimation's cast.
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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:44 am

Are you saying that if these dubbing companies were "better regulated" they'd be more accurate?
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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Shintoki » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:09 pm

Shiningboltsurge wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:12 pm
Fionordequester wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:08 pm For the sake of constructive criticism, I'm going to rewrite your wall of text with proper pronunciation, with some liberties taken to get across what I think you're trying to say.

Please study this carefully--this isn't something I'll do in the future.
Shiningboltsurge wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:43 pm -snip-
thank I wrote on a iPhone keyboard that constantly trying to autocorrect every syllable, so I just came up with the idea to delineate the have it saved them edit back over it, because I don’t trust that it’ll still be around it I try scrolling writing drafting. Leaving me thinking better to have an existent draft to do modified into a final then none at all well at least you cap off that I can’t say thanks enough.
Image
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:34 pm

Shintoki wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:07 pm
i stand by the notion that 4kids was one of the worst dubbing companies to ever stumble upon anime, they are the sole reason why one piece reputation in the west is tarnished whereas it's a global phenomena outside of NA.
You say that but somehow Funimation didn’t ruin Dragon Ball Z’s reputation despite doing things that were just as bad.


One Piece is actually quite popular among anime fans in America at least since Funimation got ahold of it. The only reason it didn’t succeed as a “kiddie phenomenon “ like Pokemon and Yugioh was because it was airing on a channel that nobody really cared about anymore during a time the Saturday Morning Cartoon era wasn’t necessarily dying but definitely on its way out. It didn’t fail because stupid third graders realized how bad the 4kids dub was.

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Shiningboltsurge » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:31 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:34 pm
Shintoki wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:07 pm
i stand by the notion that 4kids was one of the worst dubbing companies to ever stumble upon anime, they are the sole reason why one piece reputation in the west is tarnished whereas it's a global phenomena outside of NA.
You say that but somehow Funimation didn’t ruin Dragon Ball Z’s reputation despite doing things that were just as bad.


One Piece is actually quite popular among anime fans in America at least since Funimation got ahold of it. The only reason it didn’t succeed as a “kiddie phenomenon “ like Pokemon and Yugioh was because it was airing on a channel that nobody really cared about anymore during a time the Saturday Morning Cartoon era wasn’t necessarily dying but definitely on its way out. It didn’t fail because stupid third graders realized how bad the 4kids dub was.
4kids one piece was literally reviled as it was contemporary, it actually had the outlook towards it soften in retrospect’ the rage was from back then and it died on toonami next to dbz and naruto in its prime, with new dubbed eps having guns acknowledging death albeit euphemistic, was a thing and everything and it still went under for “financial reasons” even then when it happened and died ANN forums were set ablaze with how the series was doomed and diseased from the 4kids era. With the funi dub premiering in the same y7 guidelines on tonami from Jpn ep number 144 and was the only real holdover Image yes this is real https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=maI3Bs-Ungo https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/ph ... hp?t=30172 , https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/ph ... c&start=15 with American z being looked even then on in munch favorable light as the success 4kids deprived because well it was at least transparently coherent and intact for the later majority of its run. they failed at trying to be season 3 good god

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:51 pm

Shiningboltsurge wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:31 pm ] 4kids one piece was literally reviled as it was contemporary, it actually had the outlook towards it soften in retrospect’ the rage was from back then and it died on toonami next to dbz and naruto in its prime, with new dubbed eps having guns acknowledging death albeit euphemistic, was a thing and everything and it still went under for “financial reasons” even then when it happened and died ANN forums were set ablaze with how the series was doomed and diseased from the 4kids era. With the funi dub premiering in the same y7 guidelines on tonami from Jpn ep number 144 and was the only real holdover Image yes this is real https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=maI3Bs-Ungo https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/ph ... hp?t=30172 , https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/ph ... c&start=15 with American z being looked even then on in munch favorable light as the success 4kids deprived because well it was at least transparently coherent and intact for the later majority of its run. they failed at trying to be season 3 good god
You don’t think dubbed Yu-gi-oh and Dragon Ball Z weren’t hated by online fandoms back in their hey day? The only difference is the 5 and 6 year olds that enjoyed those dubs are now old enough to justify their nostalgia. “The changes 4Kids did Yu-gi-oh weren’t that bad” is a fairly new revisionism. That was not popular opinion back around 2001-2005. Same with Dragon Ball Z. It’s not like Funimation during their days under Saban didn’t edit out episodes worth of content, make ridiculous cover ups for death and move and jumble scenes around.

Of course 4Kids One Piece is probably worse but it didn’t bomb because its target audience saw through the changes it it bombed because it aired on a channel nobody was really watching

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Re: FUNimation vs 4kids description of the series

Post by Shiningboltsurge » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:42 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:51 pm
Shiningboltsurge wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:31 pm ] 4kids one piece was literally reviled as it was contemporary, it actually had the outlook towards it soften in retrospect’ the rage was from back then and it died on toonami next to dbz and naruto in its prime, with new dubbed eps having guns acknowledging death albeit euphemistic, was a thing and everything and it still went under for “financial reasons” even then when it happened and died ANN forums were set ablaze with how the series was doomed and diseased from the 4kids era. With the funi dub premiering in the same y7 guidelines on tonami from Jpn ep number 144 and was the only real holdover Image yes this is real https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=maI3Bs-Ungo https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/ph ... hp?t=30172 , https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/ph ... c&start=15 with American z being looked even then on in munch favorable light as the success 4kids deprived because well it was at least transparently coherent and intact for the later majority of its run. they failed at trying to be season 3 good god
You don’t think dubbed Yu-gi-oh and Dragon Ball Z weren’t hated by online fandoms back in their hey day? The only difference is the 5 and 6 year olds that enjoyed those dubs are now old enough to justify their nostalgia. “The changes 4Kids did Yu-gi-oh weren’t that bad” is a fairly new revisionism. That was not popular opinion back around 2001-2005. Same with Dragon Ball Z. It’s not like Funimation during their days under Saban didn’t edit out episodes worth of content, make ridiculous cover ups for death and move and jumble scenes around.

Of course 4Kids One Piece is probably worse but it didn’t bomb because its target audience saw through the changes it it bombed because it aired on a channel nobody was really watching
But it died next to dbz and naruto in its prime and it still went down like the Hindenburg, with toei literally getting phone about as one reviewer put “ Cheap North American synth garbage“ displacing the anime’s actual music and left a mark on toei that they truly took that entire throw down to heart were even they consider it a catastrophe not to be replicated toei was made to highlight the dubpiece as it was one called yes it Had that nickname, being the issue after a massive prolonged campaign and along with them FUNimation had to convince toonami to air the then next us season by telling “things would be different ” and displaying to them how in detail this shook the industry pretty munch to It’s core and left residual marks on the landscape like a destructive tremor

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