Japanese vs English names

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:38 am

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:13 am
OmegaRockman wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:23 am I don't know why I can roll with this one thing when so many other dub pronunciations make me cringe. It's weird.
It's not weird, because "Saiyan" is an English term that belongs to the dubbed version.
It’s not though

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:15 am

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:13 am
OmegaRockman wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:23 am I don't know why I can roll with this one thing when so many other dub pronunciations make me cringe. It's weird.
It's not weird, because "Saiyan" is an English term that belongs to the dubbed version. Trying to apply some kind of Japanese pronunciation to the word will only sound forced and awkward.
You and I have been through this before. "Saiyan" is a spelling used in Japan that pre-dates FUNimation's English dub and has been used within the TV series itself, on merchandise, and even within music.

(Your "but it wasn't used directly in the manga" caveat doesn't float with me, because of course it wasn't: the dialog was written in Japanese, and there was no logical place for Toriyama to write the Latin letters "S - A - I - Y - A - N" anywhere.)

Please don't continue down this road.
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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:54 am

VegettoEX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:15 am You and I have been through this before. "Saiyan" is a spelling used in Japan that pre-dates FUNimation's English dub and has been used within the TV series itself, on merchandise, and even within music.
Nobody said that the spelling hasn't been used in Japan or that it doesn't predate Funimation. Obviously it has and does. However, this does not mean that "Saiyan" is somehow a Japanese word or that it demands a "Japanese" pronunciation. Why would anyone expect that just because it's appeared written with the Latin alphabet in Japan?

It's been written out with the Latin alphabet, but has it actually been spoken aloud in any Japanese material?

I truly do not believe that we would even be discussing the "Saiyan" spelling today had it not been for its usage within the Funi dubbed version and subtitles. I doubt that the Japanese content and merchandise would be of much consideration.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:08 am

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:54 am Nobody said that the spelling hasn't been used in Japan or that it doesn't predate Funimation. Obviously it has and does. However, this does not mean that "Saiyan" is somehow a Japanese word or that it demands a "Japanese" pronunciation. Why would anyone expect that just because it's appeared written with the Latin alphabet in Japan?

It's been written out with the Latin alphabet, but has it actually been spoken aloud in any Japanese material?

I truly do not believe that we would even be discussing the "Saiyan" spelling today had it not been for its usage within the Funi dubbed version and subtitles. I doubt that the Japanese content and merchandise would be of much consideration.
To put this as politely but as carefully and direct as possible:

Your posts are borderline incomprehensible on this subject, I don't agree with your assessment or logic in what I can understand, I don't actually believe you have the full base of knowledge and context to be having this discussion, I'm not personally going to engage with you further on it, and I would caution other members to not read this user's posts on the subject matter as any sort of legitimate analysis on the topic.
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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:28 am

Sorry if you found it incomprehensible. I certainly thought it was clear enough.

You've stated your personal position on the matter. Let's allow the other members to make up their own minds on what is "legitimate analysis" and what is not, shall we?

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:33 am

I agree with Vegetto EX.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Desassina » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:40 am

MyVisionity, this happened to me before, and I would too advise you to step out. Know where you are. Sometimes we're too engaged with a subject to let things settle in our minds. It's not worth it.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Aim » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:16 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:25 am
Aim wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:00 am Spirit Bomb ideally should be Genki Dama or Genki Sphere.

Solar Flare would be Taiyo-ken, not sure how ideally one would have it, possibly just leave it as Taiyo-ken or have it be Taiyo-fist or “Treme Sun Fist” (as in extreme, but it wouldn’t match the mouth flaps.).
"Spirit Bomb" is an accurate translation of Genki Dama.

Taiyōken literally means Sun/Solar Fist or Attack.

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:19 am
Even worse when it's shortened to "KP".
When had that ever been a thing? I know this fandom had weird fascinations with acronyms *cough* EOZ *cough* but I’ve never seen KP. Seems like fans are willing to spell out King Piccolo.
I've seen K.P. on this forum before.
It’s not though, there’s no ‘bomb’ in Genki Dama, if anything it’d be Spirit Sphere, but I went with Genki Dama or Genki Sphere based on the fact it’s not just spirit energy but Genki.

As for Taiyoken, https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/mar ... explained/ don’t think solar cuts it.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:26 pm

Why not Spirit Sphere?
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Adamant » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:20 pm

Aim wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:16 pm
As for Taiyoken, https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/mar ... explained/ don’t think solar cuts it.
太陽 is literally just the common Japanese word for the sun. "Solar" is a perfectly accurate translation.
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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:36 pm

Aim wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:16 pm It’s not though, there’s no ‘bomb’ in Genki Dama, if anything it’d be Spirit Sphere, but I went with Genki Dama or Genki Sphere based on the fact it’s not just spirit energy but Genki.
Dama can refer to any kind of rounded object. In this case, a bomb. The attack functions as an explosive anyhow.

"Spirit Sphere" and the like may be more technically accurate, but "bomb" is still fairly accurate.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Super Sonic » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:42 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:36 pm
Aim wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:16 pm It’s not though, there’s no ‘bomb’ in Genki Dama, if anything it’d be Spirit Sphere, but I went with Genki Dama or Genki Sphere based on the fact it’s not just spirit energy but Genki.
Dama can refer to any kind of rounded object. In this case, a bomb. The attack functions as an explosive anyhow.

"Spirit Sphere" and the like may be more technically accurate, but "bomb" is still fairly accurate.
It also sounds cooler.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Aim » Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:39 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:36 pm
Aim wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:16 pm It’s not though, there’s no ‘bomb’ in Genki Dama, if anything it’d be Spirit Sphere, but I went with Genki Dama or Genki Sphere based on the fact it’s not just spirit energy but Genki.
Dama can refer to any kind of rounded object. In this case, a bomb. The attack functions as an explosive anyhow.

"Spirit Sphere" and the like may be more technically accurate, but "bomb" is still fairly accurate.
It does not at all act like a bomb. This is really reaching.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Aim » Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:47 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:26 pm Why not Spirit Sphere?
I was thinking more so because it’s specifically the Genki kind of energy, something specific so I thought that would probably fit better. Thoughts? Maybe Mike can give some input.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Desassina » Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:14 am

Why not be more descriptive in title instead of using nouns?

"The Sphere of Energy"

Like Kaioken was once "The Fist of Lords" in some countries. You can have these names separate from their chants since they're usually gibberish in battle.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:26 am

Super Sonic wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:42 am
MyVisionity wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:36 pm
Aim wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:16 pm It’s not though, there’s no ‘bomb’ in Genki Dama, if anything it’d be Spirit Sphere, but I went with Genki Dama or Genki Sphere based on the fact it’s not just spirit energy but Genki.
Dama can refer to any kind of rounded object. In this case, a bomb. The attack functions as an explosive anyhow.

"Spirit Sphere" and the like may be more technically accurate, but "bomb" is still fairly accurate.
It also sounds cooler.
Agreed Spirit Sphere sounds like something the KidsWb edit of Dragon Ball Z Kai would have used for spirit bomb if they had remembered spirit ball was already taken as the english name for Yamucha’s sokidan attack.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by NitroEX » Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:53 am

I used to strictly follow the English Funimation names but I feel I've outgrown many of them now, especially after realizing how flawed some of them really are. The Japanese equivalents work in most cases but for an English dub, I feel some of them would require translating or adapting.

As much as it's blasphemous to say, I can't get behind an English speaker saying Kuririn as it sounds closer to a stutter to me, or someone affecting a Japanese accent (similar to hearing "Torankusu"). I also can't take Makankosappo seriously from an English speaker, in that particular case a translation is preferable (just not one as silly as "Special Beam Cannon").

It really is a case by case thing for me at this point rather than choosing one side or the other. I've even grown to prefer a few fan-translated names too and wish we had an uncut dub that adapted more of the names faithfully. I enjoyed hearing the Bang Zoom dub using terms like Shenlong, and Blooma, I think it would be very easy for me to switch to those despite growing up with the Funimation variants. The only ones I would struggle with are Ki and Sai-yan (as "energy" and Say-en are so deeply ingrained) but I think I could unlearn them if a new uncut and faithful dub miraculously got made tomorrow.
"Spirit Sphere" and the like may be more technically accurate, but "bomb" is still fairly accurate.
My problem with Spirit Sphere is that it doesn't really convey the size of the attack. With bomb you at least get the sense it's big and devastating. Bombs also typically work on a timer and that matches fairly well with the buffer period needed for the attack.

Spirit Sphere honestly just sounds like censorship more than anything and I'm sure it would be interpreted as such by general audiences.
Desassina wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:14 am Like Kaioken was once "The Fist of Lords" in some countries. You can have these names separate from their chants since they're usually gibberish in battle.
Interesting, this might be a better way of going about it actually. So basically having an English translation of a technique when it's introduced but every time afterwards sticking with the original Japanese name as shorthand during battle, for example.
The characters could then use either name interchangeably depending on the context.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Aim » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:23 pm

ZeroIsOurHero wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:43 pm
Aim wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:20 pm I’m the same. In general Dragon Ball fans are a bit brain dead anyway. You can see it even on kanzenshuu. A lot of it has to do with the way Funimation has marketed the series. Just America doing what they do best really.
Can you please stop with this weird self-superior attitude? Just because someone watches the show differently from you doesn't mean they're brain dead or a fake fan. Not being a hardcore fan isn't some sort of crime.

And why do you feel the need to blame America for this? It's not like the president is the head of Funimation or something like that. Sorry if I'm making assumptions, but I've noticed that anime fans constantly raging at America while worshipping Japan tends to be a red flag.
It’s not self superior, just like how I wouldn’t be opposed to people sticking to English names for parts of native land in my country, however, it doesn’t change the fact that there is a right and a wrong, the brain dead comment refers to the fact so many accuse me of doing what they do. The English fandom threw a fit over Funimation doing the series justice.

I’m not going to sit here and compromise and say “yeah, you’re right, both are equal”, no; they aren’t. One is simply a 2000s sci fi parody, the other is the actual story by Toriyama.

America is blamed because it’s America that does/did these god awful dubs, and they still can’t be bothered fixing common mistakes. It’s so typical, taking a foreign item and changing it so much you’d think an American wrote it. I literally thought years and years ago Dragon Ball was made by some American guy. Understand?

Last thing, I’m not a hardcore fan, I can barely name every character off my fingers, I just like the stories and explanations to how things work in fictional universes. Wanting something to stick to the original (for a reason, it’s meant to be that way) isn’t hardcore. Anyone who watches abridged and says “yeah! This is just another VALID interpretation of the series and is just as canon as the original” is coping hard.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Aim » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:26 pm

Desassina wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:14 am Why not be more descriptive in title instead of using nouns?

"The Sphere of Energy"

Like Kaioken was once "The Fist of Lords" in some countries. You can have these names separate from their chants since they're usually gibberish in battle.
Idk, I don’t think it’s referred to in Kienzan’s case as “The Energy That Looks Like a Disk”. I don’t see an issue with Genki Sphere or even really Spirit Sphere, just looking it up Genki is different from typical ki from what I know.

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Re: Japanese vs English names

Post by Aim » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:34 pm

NitroEX wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:53 am I used to strictly follow the English Funimation names but I feel I've outgrown many of them now, especially after realizing how flawed some of them really are. The Japanese equivalents work in most cases but for an English dub, I feel some of them would require translating or adapting.

As much as it's blasphemous to say, I can't get behind an English speaker saying Kuririn as it sounds closer to a stutter to me, or someone affecting a Japanese accent (similar to hearing "Torankusu"). I also can't take Makankosappo seriously from an English speaker, in that particular case a translation is preferable (just not one as silly as "Special Beam Cannon").

It really is a case by case thing for me at this point rather than choosing one side or the other. I've even grown to prefer a few fan-translated names too and wish we had an uncut dub that adapted more of the names faithfully. I enjoyed hearing the Bang Zoom dub using terms like Shenlong, and Blooma, I think it would be very easy for me to switch to those despite growing up with the Funimation variants. The only ones I would struggle with are Ki and Sai-yan (as "energy" and Say-en are so deeply ingrained) but I think I could unlearn them if a new uncut and faithful dub miraculously got made tomorrow.
"Spirit Sphere" and the like may be more technically accurate, but "bomb" is still fairly accurate.
My problem with Spirit Sphere is that it doesn't really convey the size of the attack. With bomb you at least get the sense it's big and devastating. Bombs also typically work on a timer and that matches fairly well with the buffer period needed for the attack.

Spirit Sphere honestly just sounds like censorship more than anything and I'm sure it would be interpreted as such by general audiences.
Desassina wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:14 am Like Kaioken was once "The Fist of Lords" in some countries. You can have these names separate from their chants since they're usually gibberish in battle.
Interesting, this might be a better way of going about it actually. So basically having an English translation of a technique when it's introduced but every time afterwards sticking with the original Japanese name as shorthand during battle, for example.
The characters could then use either name interchangeably depending on the context.
Yeah Kuririn is more an actual Japanese name, Kurin or Kurilin sounds probably more fitting, maybe even Krillin, though I’m thinking also of matching mouth flaps.

The Genki Dama isn’t necessarily big though, when introduced it’s quite small, at least with Spirit Sphere a sphere can really be any size, it’s just an abstract shape.
Though I also think if Toriyama wanted to convey the idea of the technique working like a bomb he would have done so.

For Makankosappo, I’d like to know what that sounds like to Japanese audiences, do they understand the whole

“ Makankosappo is made up of five kanji: "demon/devil/magic", "pierce/penetrate", "light", "kill", and "cannon"”

Or does it just sound like a silly name? If so then something like “Devil Light Cannon”, or “Demon Light of Death”, or whatever.

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