Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283

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Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:28 pm

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Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 99 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

Whoops, slightly late posting again. Forgot to post it earlier.
We're creeping up on Z movie 13, and the end of Z.

Previous thread: Week 98 (DBZ 274-278)
Next thread: Week 100 (DBZ 284-288)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 432 - Seize the Future!! A Decisive Battle With the Universe at Stake (DBZ episode 279)
Dub title: Battle for the Universe Begins
Originally aired 20th of September 1995

Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Shigeyasu Yamauchi
Animation supervisor: Keisuke Masunaga


While Kaiōshin and co. flee, Goku and Vegeta play rock-paper-scissors to determine what order they’ll fight in. Elder Kaiōshin angrily wonders why they aren’t fighting together. Goku and Vegeta… their pride as members of the Saiyan warrior race won’t allow them to use the Potara to merge, or fight 2-against-1. Goku wins at rock-paper-scissors and faces off against Boo. Boo makes weird noises and taunts Goku, displaying overwhelming power. Boo may be goofy, but he’s outrageously strong. Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 3.

Anime-only/filler content: Extensions to the fighting, various reaction shots.

Episode 433 - Vegeta Takes Off His Hat!! Goku, You are No. 1 (DBZ episode 280)
Dub title: Vegeta's Respect
Originally aired 18th of October 1995

Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Naoki Miyahara


Even Super Saiyan 3’s power is no match for Boo. Vegeta swaps in for Goku after Goku’s knocked down, but it’s all he can manage just to guard against Boo’s heavy blows. Boo turns out to be a far more formidable opponent than Vegeta had imagined. With Vegeta in jeopardy, Goku gets up once again. For the sake of those he protects. For the sake of not losing. For the sake of challenging his limits. “Kakarrot… you are No. 1!” In the midst of this fierce battle, Vegeta admits Goku’s strength with rare honesty.

Anime-only/filler content: Various dead characters watching the fight, Vegeta fighting Boo for a while to give Goku time to recover from a particularly draining attack.

Episode 434 - Pull Through, Vegeta!! One Life-Threatening Minute (DBZ episode 281)
Dub title: Minute of Desperation
Originally aired 1st of November 1995

Written by: Masashi Kubota
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Kazuya Hisada


A volley of fierce energy blasts continues to rock the Kaiōshin Realm, but Goku can’t deliver a finishing blow. Boo regenerates from any injury. Goku needs to gather ki for one minute to wipe Boo out, and Vegeta is prepared to sacrifice himself for that minute. With his pride on the line, Vegeta skillfully taunts Boo to desperately stall for time, but something strange is happening to Goku. For some reason, his ki won’t gather!!

Anime-only/filler content: Significant extensions to the fight.

Episode 435 - Don’t You Pick on Satan!! The Original Boo is Revived (DBZ episode 282)
Dub title: Old Buu Emerges
Originally aired 8th of November 1995

Written by: Masashi Kubota
Episode director: Jun’ichi Fujise
Animation supervisor: Yukio Ebisawa


Vegeta’s in dire straits!! Satan steps in at this point. Satan is totally fearless, since he believes everything in the Kaiōshin Realm to be simply a dream. Seeing Satan, Boo is suddenly wracked with pain. Satan mistakenly thinks this is because Boo is overwhelmed by his spirit, but it turns out to be an adverse reaction from the good Boo that was absorbed. Boo spits out the meddlesome good Boo. The good Boo confronts the other Boo for picking on Satan. Meanwhile, not only is Goku’s ki not gathering, but it’s actually begun to decrease!

Anime-only/filler content: Kibitokai and Dende considering going to the Kaioshin planet, an extra scene of Mr. Satan checking on Good Boo.

Episode 436 - Vegeta’s Secret Plan!! Porunga and the Two Wishes (DBZ episode 283)
Dub title: Earth Reborn
Originally aired 15th of November 1995

Written by: Masashi Kubota
Episode director: Shigeyasu Yamauchi
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama


Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 transformation is undone, and the battle is heading toward the worst possible scenario. Goku and Vegeta are nearly out of stamina. The good Boo is fighting hard, but even he doesn’t look like he can last much longer. Vegeta calls out to Kaiōshin to gather Planet Namek’s Dragon Balls. The dragon god Porunga appears. Earth is restored with the first wish, and with the second all the dead Earthlings are brought back to life. It turns out what Vegeta has in mind is the Genki-Dama, the same technique Goku once used against him.

No significant anime-only/filler content.

-

Interesting trivia:
  • Missed Trivia: Vegeta is shown as a Super Saiyan without an aura throughout most of the Boo Arc, suggesting that he mastered the form like Goku and Gohan did in the Cell Arc.
  • One notable change Funimation made to Pure Boo was to make him speak basic sentences (KBABZ remembers one Cartoon Network ad quoting him with "Me Buu! Kill you!"), when in the source material he never says anything approaching full sentences. This would be reverted in their dub of The Final Chapters.
  • Goku and Vegeta decide who will face Boo by playing Rock Paper Scissors, which is something the Ginyu Force is known to do.
  • Old Kaioshin chastizes Goku and Vegeta for not considering working together. That he mentions it here towards the end of the manga's storyline is possibly why it's an occasional plot point in Super. They do technically work together though when Vegeta offers to stall Boo for a minute so that Goku can charge up Super Saiyan 3.
    • Goku soon after mentions wanting to have the new generation take over, something Super has absolutely no interest in doing.
  • Early in his fight with Pure Boo, Goku uses Instant Transmission to zip behind him. The only other time Goku uses Instant Transmission in combat was in his fight with Cell for the infamous "Warp Kamehameha".
  • In the ViZ translation of the manga, Vegeta says that Goku is "the champion". Kanzenshuu translates it as "You're number one!!", which is much more direct.
  • During Goku and Boo's fight, both of them bite each other. This is the second time Goku's done this, the first being during his fight with Frieza. Oddly however, this occurs in the middle of Vegeta's emotionally-charged "You are number one" speech.
    • In the anime, Boo is bitten three separate times, by Gotenks, Goku, and Mr. Satan in added filler. He's the only character to be bitten more than once, which is amusingbecause of his resemblance to chewing gum.
  • Bizarrely, Kai leaves in the filler scenes of every past Z villain (and Appule) watching the climactic battle in Hell. They even leave in Goz and Mez recognizing Goku as "the one who fell off Snake Way a while back", which contradicts Kai 1.0 cutting the referenced filler episode. This highlights the difference in approach behind the two edits.
    • As well, in this scene Babidi hopes that Boo loses. He seems to forget that this will mean Boo, who almost certainly still hates him, will wind up in Hell where he is! Fortunately for him, this doesn't happen, thanks to Goku and Enma.
  • Also in the anime, Vegeta's monologue flashes back to several of their encounters. These scenes feature brand new animation, rather than re-using the original footage of those events. Interestingly, in Funimation's Kai dub of these moments, they re-use Sabat's recordings from the original Kai where appropriate.
  • Unsurprisingly, the end of Vegeta's big speech has had many different takes over the years:
    • Kanzenshuu: Give it your best, Kakarrot... you're number one!!
    • ViZ translation: Good luck, Kakarrot... you are the champion!!
    • Ocean Z dub: You are better than me, Kakarot. You are the one.
    • Funimation Z dub: You're better than me, Kakarot. You're the best.
    • Simmons Kai subtitles: Hang in there, Kakarrot. You are Number One!
    • Funimation Kai dub: Hang in there, Kakarrot. You are Number One!
    • Funimation DBZ Kakarot dub: Only you can do this. You are number one.
  • The reason Vegeta has to stall Boo for a minute is so that Goku can charge up his ki while Super Saiyan 3, making him more powerful than he already was. This is broadly similar to Goku's fight with Freeza, where much is made regarding Freeza powering up to 100% power so that he can compete with Super Saiyan Goku.
  • Stalling Boo while Goku powers up is also similar to Dragon Ball Super: Broly, where Freeza is Broly's punching bag for an entire hour while Goku and Vegeta practice the Fusion Dance.
  • Despite also being inside Boo, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and Gohan were not able to influence Boo's behaviour like Good Boo could, which is almost certainly because they aren't, well, Boo.
  • Both Kaioshin dismiss Mr. Satan and say that losing him isn't a great loss. Considering Mr. Satan is the reason Boo is defeated, this goes to show how "wise" the two are.
  • The matchup of Pure Boo and Mr. Satan is quite possibly the biggest power gap of any fight in the manga.
  • From a certain point of view, Pure Boo vs Good Boo is a rematch of Evil Boo vs Good Boo.
  • Dende notably talks back to Old Kaioshin, someone FAR higher up the cosmic heirarchy than him.
  • Vegeta asks Goku how many times he's saved the Earth. The exact count is 5, them being the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo Daimao, Majunior, Raditz and Vegeta/Nappa (with a possible sixth if you count him defeating Mecha Freeza in the original timeline). Oolong is responsible for foiling Pilaf, and Gohan is ultimately responsible for defeating Cell (with Goku training and motivating him). Freeza also doesn't count considering Namek blew up: Kaio's Dragon Ball gambit is ultimately the reason why the Namekians survived.
    • If you were to count non-manga storylines (not including Super, since this rewatch is purely for the classic era), this count goes up to 20, thanks to DB movie 2, and Z movies 1, 3-8, 12-13, Plan to Eradicate the (Super) Saiyans, and the Black Star Balls/Baby, Super 17, and Evil Dragons arcs of GT. This highlights two things: that anime Goku has a better habit of personally saving the Earth than manga Goku, and that Toei's storylines are really formulaic!
  • In the crowd of Namekians, one has a tall, elongated head, which is yet another Xenomorph reference.
  • KBABZ remembers that in Funimation's dub of Z, Vegeta sarcastically says that for the third wish, he wants a pair of boots in size 9.
  • For the gambit with Porunga, Vegeta is arguably just as clever and forward-thinking as Goku, having remembered that both Dabra and Babidi were personally killed by Boo. And as he points out, his wording of "Everyone who died since the day of the Tournament" allows for those he killed while under Babidi's spell to come back to life as well.
  • Dende's wishes to Porunga at the end of the the Boo Arc are translated inside their own word bubble. The only other time this happens is the first time we heard it, when Majunior and God are talking to each other at the 23rd Tournament.
  • That Old Kaioshin gets restored to life has some DRASTIC implications, since it suggests that Porunga retored the lives of EVERY GOOD PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE.
  • As well, despite Vegeta also being restored back to life, in Super he is still considered a bad person due to his past actions. This suggests that Porunga, the "nice" dragon, has an opinion of Vegeta independent of anyone else in Other World (notable since Porunga would be familiar with Vegeta given the events on Namek).
  • This is the second time Vegeta has asked Dende to give Porunga a specific wish to grant. This time, it works!
  • It's also quite notable that Vegeta gets his life restored after his greatest act of selflessness, to use the Dragon Balls to restore the Earth and wish everyone back to life. This is in stark contrast to when we first met him, where he would have used the Dragon Balls only to wish himself to immortality (to say nothing of his opinion of lesser beings like humanity).
  • It had been so long since the last time the Genki-Dama was used (198 Chapters, to be precise) that ViZ felt the need to include an editors note explaining where the move comes from, pointing to their DBZ Volume 4.
Trivia primarily written by KBABZ. Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 am

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:28 pm[*]Unsurprisingly, the end of Vegeta's big speech has had many different takes over the years:
  • Kanzenshuu: Give it your best, Kakarrot... you're number one!!
  • ViZ translation: Good luck, Kakarrot... you are the champion!!
  • Ocean Z dub: You are better than me, Kakarot. You are the one.
  • Funimation Z dub: You're better than me, Kakarot. You're the best.
  • Simmons Kai subtitles: Hang in there, Kakarrot. You are Number One!
  • Funimation Kai dub: Hang in there, Kakarrot. You are Number One!
  • Funimation DBZ Kakarot dub: Only you can do this. You are number one.
I've heard fans try argue that Vegeta acknowledging Goku was better than him is a dub change. It is only a dub change insofar as it was only until Kai onwards that Vegeta's line was written from the perspective of him wishing Goku luck.

Overall the main point is the same across all versions. Vegeta is accepting that no matter what he does Goku will always surpass him and making peace with that. It was a great way to wrap up his character arc in the original manga since early on he felt his birthright was robbed from him when a low class Saiyan like Goku could become a Super Saiyan and not him but he ends up respecting Goku's decisions not to kill, but to keep fighting and always become stronger. In doing so Vegeta let go of his snobbery towards someone he originally considered lesser than him and became inspired by him.

It was a nice touch that Vegeta was still the one who suggested the winning attack (i.e the Genki Dama) as it meant that despite acknowledging not being as talented as Goku he still had something to offer, and arguably the battle would have been lost without both of them being there.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:31 am

For whatever it's worth, Vegeta literally says "Number One" in the Japanese manga/anime (ナンバーワン/nanbaawan).

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:02 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 am I've heard fans try argue that Vegeta acknowledging Goku was better than him is a dub change. It is only a dub change insofar as it was only until Kai onwards that Vegeta's line was written from the perspective of him wishing Goku luck.

Overall the main point is the same across all versions. Vegeta is accepting that no matter what he does Goku will always surpass him and making peace with that. It was a great way to wrap up his character arc in the original manga since early on he felt his birthright was robbed from him when a low class Saiyan like Goku could become a Super Saiyan and not him but he ends up respecting Goku's decisions not to kill, but to keep fighting and always become stronger. In doing so Vegeta let go of his snobbery towards someone he originally considered lesser than him and became inspired by him.

It was a nice touch that Vegeta was still the one who suggested the winning attack (i.e the Genki Dama) as it meant that despite acknowledging not being as talented as Goku he still had something to offer, and arguably the battle would have been lost without both of them being there.
Having read the manga all the way up to this point, I personally find that Vegeta's actions after the speech are far more impactful because they're the exact inverse from when he arrived on Earth. He suggests using the Dragon Balls to restore the Earth and its people to help with the Genki-Dama, and he's able to send this request to Dende, which is opposite from Namek. His original self would have wished to be more powerful than Boo and wreaked havoc across the universe. It's not called out like the You Are Number One speech is, which makes it reverberate more with me because Dragon Ball so rarely does that sort of thing.

As for that speech, my interpretation of it is a bit different compared to most fans, I think. I feel most people's take is that it's Vegeta giving up his passion to defeat Goku, which is then contradicted by the Kanzenban ending's additions. Instead, my take is that it's Vegeta finally getting the pecking order the right way 'round, but it in no way means that he's given up wanting to best Goku in a fight, which the Kanzenban emphasizes. Instead of being a point of pride, it's now become a healthier rivalry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:37 am

KBABZ wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:02 amHaving read the manga all the way up to this point, I personally find that Vegeta's actions after the speech are far more impactful because they're the exact inverse from when he arrived on Earth. He suggests using the Dragon Balls to restore the Earth and its people to help with the Genki-Dama, and he's able to send this request to Dende, which is opposite from Namek. His original self would have wished to be more powerful than Boo and wreaked havoc across the universe. It's not called out like the You Are Number One speech is, which makes it reverberate more with me because Dragon Ball so rarely does that sort of thing.
That's interesting, I never thought of it from that perspective, but it's in line with Vegeta doing a complete 180 and learning to love the Earth and it's people. At one point the Earth's inhabitants were trash to Vegeta, but during this battle he realized they were vital to himself and his greatest rival achieving a common goal.
KBABZ wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:02 amAs for that speech, my interpretation of it is a bit different compared to most fans, I think. I feel most people's take is that it's Vegeta giving up his passion to defeat Goku, which is then contradicted by the Kanzenban ending's additions. Instead, my take is that it's Vegeta finally getting the pecking order the right way 'round, but it in no way means that he's given up wanting to best Goku in a fight, which the Kanzenban emphasizes. Instead of being a point of pride, it's now become a healthier rivalry.
It's interesting because at one point Toriyama might have considered having Vegeta give up his passion for defeating Goku. In GT the two had a healthier rivalry because Vegeta was only interested in getting stronger, which yes Toriyama didn't write but he did see TOEI's stories and give advice so it's not out of the realm of possibility he influenced the direction his character's took in the show. Hell Toriyama was responsible for the moustache fans hated. Since Super has reverted back to Vegeta being concerned with defeating Goku Toriyama may have realized a few years after he originally ended the manga that fans liked their rivalry the way it was and don't want it to change, which would also explain it being retconned in the Kanzenban ending. I still think the original ending was better because it shows growth.

I do like your idea of a pecking order though because this is a series about warriors who want to constantly improve so realizing there are some stronger and some weaker than you is essential even when pride is taken out of the equation.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:26 am

I like that Porunga doesn't consider Vegeta to be a really bad person. It makes sense that he would be revived at that point. Porunga doesn't judge you based on your past misdeeds like Lord Enma does. Instead it's about the person's heart.

If the Z-era is about any one character, then it's about Vegeta. It's really his story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:42 am

That SS2 Goku vs Kid Boo episode is the heart of the whole Buuhan < Kid Boo thing. Not just the fight, Toei went out of their way to say Kid Boo was the strongest, implying I dunno, that defusing makes the fusees wildly stronger than before.


In DBS, Vegeta is the one who considers himself evil and doomed to hell, it's not really something said by somebody else, or by a god or the narrative. It makes sense, he must know all the damage he's done and he's the one living with it. In that context, he is more trashtalking Moro than deeply analyzing himself. He played that part too against Granola to piss him off.

I also like Porunga considering him a good person, which he is. It's not what you've done, it's what you are willing to do next that defines you. And Porunga wasn't that far off, in DBS (and in GT, too, why not?) we see there's no more evil in his heart, but he knows he might have to pay for what he's already done, which is A LOT.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:56 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:42 am That SS2 Goku vs Kid Boo episode is the heart of the whole Buuhan < Kid Boo thing. Not just the fight, Toei went out of their way to say Kid Boo was the strongest, implying I dunno, that defusing makes the fusees wildly stronger than before.
How? When?

Goku wasn’t even going to entertain the idea of fighting Buutenks much less Buuhan without fusing because he knew he had no chance. He had no hang ups fighting Pure Boo. Seems pretty clear cut that Pure Boo is weaker than Buutenks and Buuhan and probably Super Buu as well.


Pretty sure all that was said is Pure Boo is the most dangerous. Super Boo is just a martial artist seeking out strong opponents, not unlike Goku. Pure Boo is a chaotic sentient wrecking ball that’s out of control.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:03 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:56 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:42 am That SS2 Goku vs Kid Boo episode is the heart of the whole Buuhan < Kid Boo thing. Not just the fight, Toei went out of their way to say Kid Boo was the strongest, implying I dunno, that defusing makes the fusees wildly stronger than before.
How? When?

Goku wasn’t even going to entertain the idea of fighting Buutenks much less Buuhan without fusing because he knew he had no chance. He had no hang ups fighting Pure Boo. Seems pretty clear cut that Pure Boo is weaker than Buutenks and Buuhan and probably Super Buu as well.


Pretty sure all that was said is Pure Boo is the most dangerous. Super Boo is just a martial artist seeking out strong opponents, not unlike Goku. Pure Boo is a chaotic sentient wrecking ball that’s out of control.
I haven't watched that episode in almost 3 years, so I can't tell you exactly when it happens, but I think it was when Goku powered up and went SS3, so yeah, not even as a SS3 he says that. He says something like "you're the strongest Boo" or something like that, and of course it makes no sense and contradicts pretty much the whole arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:20 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:37 am It's interesting because at one point Toriyama might have considered having Vegeta give up his passion for defeating Goku.

-snip-

I do like your idea of a pecking order though because this is a series about warriors who want to constantly improve so realizing there are some stronger and some weaker than you is essential even when pride is taken out of the equation.
Again, I don't think in either version of the ending Vegeta actually gives up his rivalry with Goku. It was unhealthy because of his perspective: Vegeta considered himself the best and wanted to defeat Goku to defend his pride and prove a point. Not only is that incredibly stressful for him because he refused to admit the truth, it led him to some utterly toxic behaviour and actions like making a deal with the devil with the Majin spell.

By admitting that Goku is the best, he's approaching the task of defeating Goku from a healthier angle. It's less about his pride and more about challenging himself as a fighter and combatant, which is still very important to him given that he's a Saiyan and all, but it means his self-worth isn't tied into it anymore because he's moved past that. And it doesn't change his perspective of Goku as a person: in the Kanzenban ending, Vegeta notes that he finds Goku's goofiness to be annoying, and in Toei's version of the "You are Number One" scene he points out how Goku's past actions make him sick.

To me the inclusion of Vegeta at the end of the manga's very last page is meant to reinforce that the rivalry is still there more prominently than in the original version, as well as semi-address one of the criticisms of the manga's ending, which is that it just sorta ends and Goku abandons everybody seemingly forever. The ending narration of the original manga always said that there are further adventures, and Vegeta saying that one day he will defeat Goku also alludes to further events happening in the future that we don't get to see.

And it makes sense to me that Toriyama would make these additions: I always felt that he was beyond tired with Dragon Ball by the time he was doing the Boo Arc and was more concerned with ending the damn thing when doing "End of Z". With a decade away from Dragon Ball and no weekly schedule or page count to adhere to, he was probably able to approach the ending from a fresher perspective and deliver his points a bit better than the first time around. This would have also been helped by Toriyama reading his story front-to-back in the process of making the 34 different Kanzenban covers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:55 pm

KBABZ wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:20 pm Again, I don't think in either version of the ending Vegeta actually gives up his rivalry with Goku. It was unhealthy because of his perspective: Vegeta considered himself the best and wanted to defeat Goku to defend his pride and prove a point. Not only is that incredibly stressful for him because he refused to admit the truth, it led him to some utterly toxic behaviour and actions like making a deal with the devil with the Majin spell.

By admitting that Goku is the best, he's approaching the task of defeating Goku from a healthier angle. It's less about his pride and more about challenging himself as a fighter and combatant, which is still very important to him given that he's a Saiyan and all, but it means his self-worth isn't tied into it anymore because he's moved past that. And it doesn't change his perspective of Goku as a person: in the Kanzenban ending, Vegeta notes that he finds Goku's goofiness to be annoying, and in Toei's version of the "You are Number One" scene he points out how Goku's past actions make him sick.
This is the approach Super seems to have run with, and it's why (for all its faults) I've never had an issue with Vegeta still wanting to be stronger than Goku there. His entire approach and mindset is different now. GT went with the idea that Vegeta forever conceded to Goku being #1, which I think can also work, but I agree that the "You Are #1" monologue was meant to show he realized why Goku was #1, not that he had to forever be ahead of him.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:03 pm

We are getting closer to that weird party episode with everybody dancing, animated by the worst possible studio, doing the utter worse they could possibly do.

The trivia for that episode is going to be crazy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:16 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:03 pm We are getting closer to that weird party episode with everybody dancing, animated by the worst possible studio, doing the utter worse they could possibly do.

The trivia for that episode is going to be crazy.
The fact that it wasn’t omitted in Boo Kai despite being 100 percent filler :wtf: :?

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:42 pm

I was beyond shocked when that party episode was still in Boo Kai. Was it in Japanese Kai as well, or only in TFC?
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:38 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:55 pm This is the approach Super seems to have run with, and it's why (for all its faults) I've never had an issue with Vegeta still wanting to be stronger than Goku there. His entire approach and mindset is different now. GT went with the idea that Vegeta forever conceded to Goku being #1, which I think can also work, but I agree that the "You Are #1" monologue was meant to show he realized why Goku was #1, not that he had to forever be ahead of him.
Exactly! Vegeta now has something like Goku's approach, which is self-acknowledging that he isn't the best, but that should in no way stop him from trying.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:03 pm We are getting closer to that weird party episode with everybody dancing, animated by the worst possible studio, doing the utter worse they could possibly do.

The trivia for that episode is going to be crazy.
Except no because it's filler, and I'm reading the manga for this. I only did the Driving Episode for its utter infamy! For comparison, I skipped Bulma and the Crabs.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:54 pm

KBABZ wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:38 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:55 pm This is the approach Super seems to have run with, and it's why (for all its faults) I've never had an issue with Vegeta still wanting to be stronger than Goku there. His entire approach and mindset is different now. GT went with the idea that Vegeta forever conceded to Goku being #1, which I think can also work, but I agree that the "You Are #1" monologue was meant to show he realized why Goku was #1, not that he had to forever be ahead of him.
Exactly! Vegeta now has something like Goku's approach, which is self-acknowledging that he isn't the best, but that should in no way stop him from trying.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:03 pm We are getting closer to that weird party episode with everybody dancing, animated by the worst possible studio, doing the utter worse they could possibly do.

The trivia for that episode is going to be crazy.
Except no because it's filler, and I'm reading the manga for this. I only did the Driving Episode for its utter infamy! For comparison, I skipped Bulma and the Crabs.
NOOOOOO... but it's the end of the show, the last one before EoZ if I'm not mistaken... maybe an exception? :D :D

Nah, I mean it's incredibly boring and awkward, so I can understand.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:12 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:54 pm NOOOOOO... but it's the end of the show, the last one before EoZ if I'm not mistaken... maybe an exception? :D :D

Nah, I mean it's incredibly boring and awkward, so I can understand.
I watched once when I saw TFC for the first time. That's enough.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:28 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:42 pm I was beyond shocked when that party episode was still in Boo Kai. Was it in Japanese Kai as well, or only in TFC?
Only the international/TFC version. Between that and the Fuji Tv cut getting a way better OP than what Toei provided international licensees I think we all got the raw end of the an already pretty bad deal.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:56 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:28 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:42 pm I was beyond shocked when that party episode was still in Boo Kai. Was it in Japanese Kai as well, or only in TFC?
Only the international/TFC version. Between that and the Fuji Tv cut getting a way better OP than what Toei provided international licensees I think we all got the raw end of the an already pretty bad deal.
I honestly like Fight It Out and prefer Never Give Up to a lot of the Fuji endings, but KZZG did seem to have a higher caliber of quality put into it. I like some of the stuff that was left in TFC, but it definitely sort of defeats the purpose.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 99 - DBZ 279-283 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:19 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:03 pm We are getting closer to that weird party episode with everybody dancing, animated by the worst possible studio, doing the utter worse they could possibly do.
That's a good episode if I recall, not too weird. And Uchiyama/Last House was the best choice for an episode like that, with no fighting and casual interaction. They are actually one of my favorite studios.
Masunaga/Cockpit is the studio that would have ruined the episode with their bullshit.

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