Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Dragon Ball Ireland
I Live Here
Posts: 3539
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Sligo, Ireland

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:53 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:55 pm Super Saiyan 4 isn't part of the Super Saiyan "spectrum" either. Its name was out of convenience. Like Super Saiyan God, it should have a different name to reflect that.
That's interesting, I forgot about the GT Perfect Files, but they have some great info. I wonder if Super Saiyan 4 was also given it's name for marketing purposes because kids would see a higher number than 3 and assume it's more powerful. Obviously when Battle of Gods came around the Red form couldn't be called "Super Saiyan 4" as that would invalidate all official products using the GT form, so calling it and later Blue (at least initially, although it's name became too much of a mouthful) "God" forms would again make them sound superior to other forms. I'm kinda glad the name "Ultra Instinct" was given to a new form, as it's refreshing to see a transformation not just being called a "Super Saiyan" transformation out of convenience.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:06 pm

I could see SSJ4 being called "True Saiyan" or "Saiyan Prime" or something like that, without the Super. SSJ4 was just an easier name since it's still the next evolution following SSJ3 (aside from Golden Oozaru).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:27 pm

SSJ4 name never made any sense compared to what that form truly was. Vegeta could achieve that without SSJ3 if he only had a tail. That already proves it has no connection to previous forms, at least not SSJ2 and SSJ3, as it still had SSJ aura. If SSJ Blue is a mix of SSJ and SSJG, SSJ4 could be considered mix of SSJ and Oozaru with Golden Oozaru being something like a transition form or incomplete form. It also has different requirements as Baby Vegeta couldn't achieve it despite being able to become Golden Oozaru.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:29 pm

I think "Super Saiyan Ape" would have sufficed. It did require unlocking Super Saiyan to achieve, after all.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:04 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:29 pm I think "Super Saiyan Ape" would have sufficed. It did require unlocking Super Saiyan to achieve, after all.
Or go with a name they came up for limit breaker version of SSJ4 in GT, that is "Super Full Power Saiyan 4", just without "4" at the end.
Although that would collide a lot with Broly's new "Super Saiyan Full Power" form, but well, they would probably come with different name for Broly then.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:11 pm

I feel like Super Full Power Saiyan would get confused with Goku and Gohan's "relaxed" SSJ form. Super Saiyan Ape would be an alternate name used for Golden Oozaru. I can see why they just went with SSJ4 because it's the simplest way of marking it.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

Marz
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:57 pm

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Marz » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:17 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pm
Because "Super Saiyan God" implies the Red haired form is a Super Saiyan form in of itself rather than a Saiyan with god Ki. For Blue to be Super Saiyan stacked on top of that that would make it the Super Saiyan state of another Super Saiyan form. It would be like creating a new transformation with the bodily features of Super Saiyan 4 but with a new hair colour and aura and calling it "Super Saiyan 4 Super Saiyan". That's why the God forms are no longer distinct. Blue made it less about divine power and more about further progressions of raw strength like the original yellow haired Super Saiyan forms.
Goku never claimed that Blue was the Super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God tho. There are some supplementary materials that imply this or even directly claim that this is the case, but the show (or the manga) never claims it that way. The statement given in the movie / anime is very straighforward

The Blue form is what happens when a Saiyan obtains the power of the Super Saiyan God and transforms into a Super Saiyan. I think this has clearly different implications than saying that Blue is SS stacked on top of the God form.

Super Saiyan God is a form of its own, it's different than the Golden haired Super Saiyan, so basically Super Saiyan Blue is what happened when that God power is mixed with the power of the original SS transformation. These are two different beasts combined, BUT NOT two transformations stacked on top of each other, which seems fine to me and makes sense actually. I can see ''Super Saiyan of the Super Saiyan'' sounding more confusing or weird, but it's not the case with Blue

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:22 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:29 pm I think "Super Saiyan Ape" would have sufficed. It did require unlocking Super Saiyan to achieve, after all.
Or Super Saiyan Primeival or Super Saiyan Primal. But yeah its not part of the 'proper' Super Saiyan line. Its still a Super Saiyan form just not part of the main Super Saiyan line.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:32 pm

I like the sound of Super Saiyan Primal.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:33 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:32 pm I like the sound of Super Saiyan Primal.
Me too. I think someone else came up with the name on here I just can't remember who.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:09 am

What would be the proper Japanese term for “primal/primeval”?
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:49 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:29 amYour point had to leave out the part that Saiyan with God ki is already a form of Super Saiyan.
Because it isn't. It's a "Super" Saiyan. not a Super Saiyan form. SSB is a Super Saiyan form though. The regular Super Saiyan form, only applied to a Saiyan with god ki.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pmBecause "Super Saiyan God" implies the Red haired form is a Super Saiyan form in of itself rather than a Saiyan with god Ki.
How its named is not really relevant to what the form is. Super Saiyan God is a Saiyan with God ki. It's not a "Super Saiyan" transformation.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pmThats why it doesn't make sense they called the Red form "Super Saiyan" God.
I'll leave the sense of nomenclature and respective choice of adjectives to Toriyama. How it's named is completely irrelevant to the argument although it does corroborate what I've said.

Super Saiyan God = Saiyan with god ki
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with god ki
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pmThe name implies it's a part of the original Super Saiyan spectrum (which includes all the Yellow forms and Super Saiyan 4), which it can't be if it's only a Saiyan with God ki.
No, it does not imply that. Super is just an adjective, "Super Saiyan God" is a more impactful name than just "Saiyan God". The choice of nomenclature is perfectly understandable even though it's a bit convoluted.

Dragon Ball Ireland
I Live Here
Posts: 3539
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Sligo, Ireland

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:53 am

Luso Saiyan, I think we will need to agree to disagree on this one having stated all our points. Despite not sharing them, I do respect the opinions you've expressed, but I don't think we can take this discussion any further.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am

For SS4, I would've actually preferred it to be called Legendary SS.
It checks every box of the legend. It requires certain circumstances like having enough power to unlock SS, but also have your tail intact which is sort of impossible because the more a saiyan fights, more chances of losing their tail, and the stronger they are, fewer chances of regrowining it.

No saiyan was strong enough to unlock SS while still having their tails, and also they need to be able to control the ape form, otherwise they would be just a golden ape running around. It's a pretty difficult form to unlock. Boy, I can see SS4 Vegeta vs Freeza on Namek, or against the androids.

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:30 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am For SS4, I would've actually preferred it to be called Legendary SS.
It checks every box of the legend. It requires certain circumstances like having enough power to unlock SS, but also have your tail intact which is sort of impossible because the more a saiyan fights, more chances of losing their tail, and the stronger they are, fewer chances of regrowining it.

No saiyan was strong enough to unlock SS while still having their tails, and also they need to be able to control the ape form, otherwise they would be just a golden ape running around. It's a pretty difficult form to unlock. Boy, I can see SS4 Vegeta vs Freeza on Namek, or against the androids.
Fun fact, polish version of GT, which was based on french release, stated Goku achieved SSJ4 on Namek against Frieza :lol:

Anyway, when Vegeta asked why he couldn't turn SSJ4 before even though he always controlled his transformation, Bulma said he probably wasn't strong enough yet. Hard to say what does it exactly mean, but it seems SSJ4 form also requires very high power to achieve, so perhaps Vegeta wouldn't be able to do that on Namek anyway even if he had a tail and could turn SSJ.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:36 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:30 am
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 am For SS4, I would've actually preferred it to be called Legendary SS.
It checks every box of the legend. It requires certain circumstances like having enough power to unlock SS, but also have your tail intact which is sort of impossible because the more a saiyan fights, more chances of losing their tail, and the stronger they are, fewer chances of regrowining it.

No saiyan was strong enough to unlock SS while still having their tails, and also they need to be able to control the ape form, otherwise they would be just a golden ape running around. It's a pretty difficult form to unlock. Boy, I can see SS4 Vegeta vs Freeza on Namek, or against the androids.
Fun fact, polish version of GT, which was based on french release, stated Goku achieved SSJ4 on Namek against Frieza :lol:

Anyway, when Vegeta asked why he couldn't turn SSJ4 before even though he always controlled his transformation, Bulma said he probably wasn't strong enough yet. Hard to say what does it exactly mean, but it seems SSJ4 form also requires very high power to achieve, so perhaps Vegeta wouldn't be able to do that on Namek anyway even if he had a tail and could turn SSJ.
I think she meant he wasn't even strong enough to go SS back when he still had his tail and had total control over his ohzaru form. He still had a long way to go until SS was unlocked. He lost his tail at 18,000... Goku unlocked SS at 3 M, Geets probably was around 5 when he went SS.
It could also be that to turn golden ohzaru, the power needed to turn regular SS might not be enough, but I highly doubt this.

It's a bummer the tail thing, it's too fragile to survive the type of fights required to raise the PL enough in order to unlock SS and then unlock SS4.

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:00 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:36 pm It's a bummer the tail thing, it's too fragile to survive the type of fights required to raise the PL enough in order to unlock SS and then unlock SS4.
Now you made me think about how cool would it be if Goku turned SSJ4 against Baby only because of some special circumstances like getting help from the same machine Baby did, but wouldn't be able to turn SSJ4 again until Syn Shenron when he would finally be strong enough to mantain it by himself. It would be like getting a sneak peek of final form much earlier on when character isn't ready to achieve it on his own. Kinda like Goku Jr. turned SSJ in TV special but didn't even remember that as he clearly wasn't ready for it. Or how false SSJ in Slug movie ended up to look like (even though it was meant to be actual SSJ during production).
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:10 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:00 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:36 pm It's a bummer the tail thing, it's too fragile to survive the type of fights required to raise the PL enough in order to unlock SS and then unlock SS4.
Now you made me think about how cool would it be if Goku turned SSJ4 against Baby only because of some special circumstances like getting help from the same machine Baby did, but wouldn't be able to turn SSJ4 again until Syn Shenron when he would finally be strong enough to mantain it by himself. It would be like getting a sneak peek of final form much earlier on when character isn't ready to achieve it on his own. Kinda like Goku Jr. turned SSJ in TV special but didn't even remember that as he clearly wasn't ready for it. Or how false SSJ in Slug movie ended up to look like (even though it was meant to be actual SSJ during production).
We kinda got something like that with UI in the manga during the ToP. Although, it was more of a fluke in the anime.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Favorite Super Saiyan Form?

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:54 am

DBZ Broly was implied to still have his tail as I recall and his Bio-Broly clone also had his tail too. So the tail isn't a bummer IMO. I would love to see Super Saiyan 4 Limit Break go ever further and maybe rival other techniques of the gods.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

Post Reply