Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:37 am

We do need more of that, indeed.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:49 am

I agree that Saiyaman gets old after a while. It's a bit of a one note joke and also a byproduct of Toriyama having to bend Gohan's character to make him a suitable protagonist.

Toriyama has two types of protags - the weird freakshow that has no idea how society works but is just better than everybody at everything (Arale and Goku) and the overly earnest dork who desperately wants to be cool and doesn't realize he's the punchline (Senbei, Neko Majin, Jaco). He turned Gohan into the latter with some of his typical gags. I can see how fans get a little iffy about it coming off the Cell saga.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:36 am

Saiyaman works if you space it out over time, instead of all at once like at the beginning of the Boo saga. Unfortunately, this is not the story that Toriyama had in mind. Otherwise we could have gotten a great saga of stories revolving around Gohan's high school life and role as a crimefighter.

Saiyaman also works better when it's not simply a gag, but is applied earnestly, such as in the Saiyaman filler episodes or in Movie 13.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:17 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:36 am Saiyaman works if you space it out over time, instead of all at once like at the beginning of the Boo saga. Unfortunately, this is not the story that Toriyama had in mind. Otherwise we could have gotten a great saga of stories revolving around Gohan's high school life and role as a crimefighter.

Saiyaman also works better when it's not simply a gag, but is applied earnestly, such as in the Saiyaman filler episodes or in Movie 13.
The Saiyaman stuff has some of my favorite character moments for Gohan and of the Boo arc, but it being spaced out over the saga doesn't sound appealing to me. I'm thankful that Toriyama decided to bring Goku back and have him be the focus again, even speaking as someone who prefers Gohan slightly to Goku.

When you consider that Gohan grew up as a country bumpkin and was homeschooled, and is now a teenager going to school in the big city, it makes sense that he would want to be cool and fit in but have no idea how/end up looking like a dork.
All that said, I like when it's treated seriously in Movie 13, like you said.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:16 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:43 am
ABED wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:04 am
BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:02 am

I think the Boo saga's ending works just as well for Goku. I like the idea of the student finally becoming a master and tutoring his own student. Though I do agree that the Boo saga went on for too long and that some of the additions have felt superfluous in the long run. *Goten*
And, come on, we all need a little more Saiyaman in our lives.
Do we?
yes.
Nuh uh. Seriously though, it's a joke that wears thin VERY quickly, just like Batman 66. It's painfully drawn out in the anime. Thankfully after that the arc starts to get interesting.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:44 pm

Maybe it’s just because superhero parodies are way overdone at this point, but I don’t particularly care for Saiyaman. It doesn’t help that we already had a Japanese superhero parody with the Ginyu Force.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:54 pm

Saiyaman isn't only a joke or parody, it's also a plot device used to tell crimefighting stories and explore Gohan's high school life. If it were simply a joke, yes it would have worn thin. But it was more than that. It's just that it was never fully realized because the Boo arc shifted into a different direction.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:01 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:54 pm Saiyaman isn't only a joke or parody, it's also a plot device used to tell crimefighting stories and explore Gohan's high school life. If it were simply a joke, yes it would have worn thin. But it was more than that. It's just that it was never fully realized because the Boo arc shifted into a different direction.
It also provided a plot device to bring Gohan and Videl together. And, (ignoring that she became a Toriyama housewife) Videl was probably the best thing to happen to Gohan post Cell.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:19 pm

And Gohan's high school life was a joke. It did wear thin and I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell anyone thinks there was more to say on the subject of his high school life. Toriyama changed gears for good reason, there's so little story there.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:29 pm

Cell seems like an odd place to end the series because it set Gohan up as the next main character, readers were expecting something to come next. Freeza might have made a good ending though, but I'm glad they didn't end at either because I loved the Buu arc.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:32 pm

Last thing Dragon Ball needed to turn into was a Slice of Life Romcom, especially after coming off the climax of the Android arc, so switching gears sooner rather than later was the best bet.
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:29 pm Cell seems like an odd place to end the series because it set Gohan up as the next main character, readers were expecting something to come next.
Pretty much where I stand but I'm glad Toriyama brought Goku back in the end.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:36 pm

It was setting up Gohan as the main character? Wasn't the whole point that Gohan defeating Cell was the payoff?
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:04 pm

Even speaking as someone who genuinely enjoys the Gohan high school stuff, I wouldn't like it if it didn't lead into the larger Boo arc. It's enjoyable precisely because (along with the preparation for the 25th Budokai) it's the calm before the storm. And it definitely did go too long in the anime with all the filler.

Even though Toriyama did initially make Gohan the main character in the Boo arc, I don't feel like the ending of Cell meant it had to be his series. Ultimately he was still just a trump card pulled out by Goku, and while he dealt the killing blow to Cell, he needed Goku's urging to do so. Toriyama wisely realized during Boo that Gohan didn't have the same sense of agency Goku had to drive the larger story into motion, and that a purely reactive character who struggles with self-confidence isn't compelling as the lead. Goku has always been the character driving the action (aside from villains, that is).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:18 am

ABED wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:36 pm It was setting up Gohan as the main character? Wasn't the whole point that Gohan defeating Cell was the payoff?
But how is it a payoff? Gohan was such a background character for most of the Cell arc ending the entire series at “And then Gohan saved the day and become earth’s protector” doesn’t feel like any sort of payoff to that arc let alone the series.

Honestly, Gohan’s big turning point to me wasn’t becoming Super Saiyan 2, even though that was iconic, it was defying his mother to go to Namek out of respect for his mentor that sacrificed his life for him.

Switching gears from Goku to Gohan is fine, since Toriyama probably felt there wasn’t much else to do with Goku, but there should probably be some follow up on “And now Gohan is the hero!” after spending almost a decade on Goku.

And ultimately Toriyama back tracked, decided Gohan wasn’t a fitting lead for a martial arts series, put Goku back in the lead and ended things.And that’s fine too. I like Goku better.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:15 am

There's intent and execution. The intent was for it to be a payoff, the execution came up short. I didn't mean that was Toriyama's intention all along, just that I don't think he made Gohan the hero at the end so he could tee up something later. I don't think Toriyama made him Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Cell so he could be the hero later.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:24 am

Toriyama trying to do shock value with that Gohan twist in the Cell arc really just didn't work because he didn't build up to the character arc well enough and also didn't even seem to commit to really writing Gohan. It's like he said "I need a twist" and just went with Gohan without really wanting to. This is what happens when it's clear that you just don't like writing and you're being tortured to death by editorial.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:05 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:24 am Toriyama trying to do shock value with that Gohan twist in the Cell arc really just didn't work because he didn't build up to the character arc well enough and also didn't even seem to commit to really writing Gohan. It's like he said "I need a twist" and just went with Gohan without really wanting to. This is what happens when it's clear that you just don't like writing and you're being tortured to death by editorial.
Again you twist crap for a political point. This has NOTHING to do with love of writing or tortured by editorial. He was never one to plan things out. That was always his style.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:07 am

ABED wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:15 am There's intent and execution. The intent was for it to be a payoff, the execution came up short. I didn't mean that was Toriyama's intention all along, just that I don't think he made Gohan the hero at the end so he could tee up something later. I don't think Toriyama made him Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Cell so he could be the hero later.
But we know he wasn’t planning on ending things at Cell, we know he tried to make Gohan the main character from then on then changed his mind later on because Gohan wasn’t a fitting lead. I just don’t see how it wasn’t a set up? It resolves the “Gohan has a great hidden power” thing but it also inaugurates Gohan as the new lead or was supposed to.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:15 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:07 am
ABED wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:15 am There's intent and execution. The intent was for it to be a payoff, the execution came up short. I didn't mean that was Toriyama's intention all along, just that I don't think he made Gohan the hero at the end so he could tee up something later. I don't think Toriyama made him Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Cell so he could be the hero later.
But we know he wasn’t planning on ending things at Cell, we know he tried to make Gohan the main character from then on then changed his mind later on because Gohan wasn’t a fitting lead. I just don’t see how it wasn’t a set up? It resolves the “Gohan has a great hidden power” thing but it also inaugurates Gohan as the new lead or was supposed to.
It can be both but it wasn't like Gohan's transformation was some cliffhanger that lead to the next story. It was the resolution to the Cell arc. It wasn't merely some means to some other end.

I'ts not like he said to himself "Okay how do I resolve this story? I dunno, but Gohan should be the main character in the next arc." Considering how many chapters between Goku and Gohan leaving the RoSaT where it was implied Goku had a plan to defeat Cell, and the end of the Cell Games, I can't imagine Toriyama was already planning for the next arc.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:31 am

I’m sure he wasn’t literally planning out his next arc but like he kills off Goku and treats it as for good this time and has Gohan saves this day.At some point between Goku sacrificing himself and Gohan unleashing his hidden power I think Toriyama knew Gohan was going to be the lead for the next arc even if he had zero clue what that actually entails.

Toriyama is very much a writing by the seat of your pants kind of guy but that doesn’t he mean he never set up things for later like Roshi inviting Goku to train under him after his dragon ball hunt and Bulma giving Goku her dragon radar at the end to find his grandpa’s dragon ball. He probably didn’t have any clue what all that would entail but he did set up that Goku would train under Roshi and then later look for his grandpa’s ball.

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