Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:21 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:25 pm It's interesting that fan reception of the Boo arc has somewhat softened with time. I remember Boo was long considered the weakest arc in the series, but nowadays a lot of people (myself included) appreciate many aspects of it, in numerous cases moreso than Cell.
I was going to say the same after checking more replies on this thread. I'm (pleasantly) surprised at just how many people here have echoed the sentiment of Boo saga>Cell saga. It was my intro to Dragon Ball, and I remember going from loving it to finding it easily "the worst of Z" (and seeing that sentiment quite often on forums, etc.) to circling back around to loving it, and finding that its positives far outweighs its weaknesses. I still enjoy the Cell arc, but it's a case where the whole is lesser than the sum of its parts; it's got a lot of cool individual moments, but it's not strung together as well as prior arcs. Boo has some of the same weaknesses, but a wonderful mix of both fun and dark, and a return to more whimsical, magical elements. And Boo is the most unique and fun villain of the series. It's much more enjoyable as a whole for me.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by theoriginalbilis » Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:51 am

Should Dragon Ball have stopped after Cell? I don't think so.

The series, the fandom, and the franchise are better off with the Buu arc than without it. Sure, it has a lot of problems, mainly with structure and pacing, but the added world-building, character development for Vegeta & Mr. Satan and new characters like Videl are just too good to ignore.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:20 pm

I personally don't think so. The story ending at that point would have felt a bit too abrupt. Despite my issues with the Majin Boo arc, I feel that arc brings a lot of aspects of the story full circle.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:52 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:04 am Cell is only a decent ending if Dragon Ball is just "DBZ" to you.

Buu is a better ending for the Dragon Ball saga in its entirety.
What about GT's finale? I think it's the best ending the franchise has ever done, and this is taking the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, Cell arc and Boo arc into account.

[TANGENT WARNING]

Also, in my opinion, GT was an okay show. The only things that it does better than Z are the stakes, since they surprisingly never use Senzu, the Japanese soundtrack, which feels like a true successor to Kikuchi's music, and the ending. It feels like the end of the franchise as a whole, and some might argue that Dragon Ball should've stayed dead after GT.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:05 pm

I love GT's ending as a more final ending, but the Boo saga ending is a bit easier to digest because it's lighter and not so much a "goodbye" but a new beginning. I feel similarly when it comes to the endings of Toy Story 3 and Toy Story 4 (The former having an EoZ type ending, the latter more of a GT ending).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by 90sDBZ » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:43 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:01 pm Boo brought that feeling back. Boo transcended Earth and its inhabitants. So, from that standpoint, I feel that Boo was the better villain. He also felt much more threatening than Cell.
I agree with this. I like how the final battle with Kid Buu gets everyone involved, with multiple parties watching it unfold while also contributing. It just feels more exciting, and reminds me of King Kai, Guru, Kami, Popo, and Dende all contributing during Namek's Destruction while Goku fought Frieza.

Kid Buu teleporting from planet to planet blowing them all up was insane, and made him feel like a real unpredictable threat that could realistically wipe out all existence.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:51 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:43 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:01 pm Boo brought that feeling back. Boo transcended Earth and its inhabitants. So, from that standpoint, I feel that Boo was the better villain. He also felt much more threatening than Cell.
I agree with this. I like how the final battle with Kid Buu gets everyone involved, with multiple parties watching it unfold while also contributing. It just feels more exciting, and reminds me of King Kai, Guru, Kami, Popo, and Dende all contributing during Namek's Destruction while Goku fought Frieza.

Kid Buu teleporting from planet to planet blowing them all up was insane, and made him feel like a real unpredictable threat that could realistically wipe out all existence.
Hell yeah! That was really fun to watch. Hey, you know what I really wanna see? The entire Dragon Team (Goku, Vegeta, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten and Trunks, #17 and 18 and Majin Boo) fight off against one, super powerful villain. They could even make it into a 1 and a half hour movie!
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:06 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:43 pm
TheGreatness25 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:01 pm Boo brought that feeling back. Boo transcended Earth and its inhabitants. So, from that standpoint, I feel that Boo was the better villain. He also felt much more threatening than Cell.
I agree with this. I like how the final battle with Kid Buu gets everyone involved, with multiple parties watching it unfold while also contributing. It just feels more exciting, and reminds me of King Kai, Guru, Kami, Popo, and Dende all contributing during Namek's Destruction while Goku fought Frieza.

Kid Buu teleporting from planet to planet blowing them all up was insane, and made him feel like a real unpredictable threat that could realistically wipe out all existence.
yeah, agreed with all of the above. i know there are some gohan stands out there but, for me, once cell reached his perfect form the entire story slowed down and lost almost all tension and interest. it's easily my least favorite part of DBZ, which is a shame because the androids were fun!

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:27 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:06 pm yeah, agreed with all of the above. i know there are some gohan stands out there but, for me, once cell reached his perfect form the entire story slowed down and lost almost all tension and interest. it's easily my least favorite part of DBZ, which is a shame because the androids were fun!
Cell was at his most interesting when he was Imperfect. And I honestly find Gohan most interesting prior to Cell and then in the Boo arc. I enjoy his story in the Cell arc, but it's not the highlight of his character for me.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:33 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:56 pm The series was never going to end at Cell.


And Cell is a terrible ending for the series. It only works if you follow the mentality that “Dragon Ball” is Goku’s story and “Dragon Ball Z” is Gohan’s story. Which doesn’t work when you account for the fact the name change and story divide was anime only.


I’ll say it again, say what you will about the Boo arc as a whole it really did provide the best ending for the manga since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.
There's some translated interview on Kanzenshuu where Toriyama mentioned that Gohan was originally meant to be a "scientist" character and not a fighter at all. It just kinda happened the way it did because that's how the story went.
And, the push of Z being Gohan's story was Toei's interpretation since they had no idea how the manga was going to end. Hell, in Kai the openings very clearly center around Goku with hindsight in their minds.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:16 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:27 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:06 pm yeah, agreed with all of the above. i know there are some gohan stands out there but, for me, once cell reached his perfect form the entire story slowed down and lost almost all tension and interest. it's easily my least favorite part of DBZ, which is a shame because the androids were fun!
Cell was at his most interesting when he was Imperfect. And I honestly find Gohan most interesting prior to Cell and then in the Boo arc. I enjoy his story in the Cell arc, but it's not the highlight of his character for me.
We all know that Gohan truly peaked at Saiyaman.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:55 am

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:16 am We all know that Gohan truly peaked at Saiyaman.
Yet another reason I'm happy for the Boo arc. I loved seeing what not having to fight powerful villains over a long period of time did for Gohan. That, plus having him as a teenager and going to public school in Satan City (the city named after the man who falsely took credit for defeating Cell), getting to know Videl, etc. I don't blame him for cutting loose with a goofy superhero alter ego, either. There's just a lot of good stuff there that I'd much rather have in Dragon Ball than not have.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Mireya » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:14 am

MasenkoHA wrote:The series was never going to end at Cell.
Really? I remember it being said that the Cell arc was originally planned as the last tune but Toriyama decided to give it one more note, with even an important figure in Japan influencing him to write one more arc. And Cell's arc seemed perfect to me with its ending... the torch being finally passed on to Goku's son.
MasenkoHA wrote:I’ll say it again, say what you will about the Boo arc as a whole it really did provide the best ending for the manga since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.
I think that's debatable since the Cell arc passed the mantle of Earth's protector to Gohan. The Boo arc still had Goku taking off with Oob and trying to improve himself and have a fun battle. If the 2nd portion of the series were more focused on Gohan, I think an ending with Gohan becoming more "dependable" than Goku works more swiftly. That part of Goku giving everyone farewell in the afterlife in Cell's arc was more epic, to me at least. In the Boo arc he said "ohh I'll train Boo, bye!" and didn't even answer Gohan's question.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:53 am

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:52 pm What about GT's finale? I think it's the best ending the franchise has ever done, and this is taking the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, Cell arc and Boo arc into account.
What I meant was the Dragon Ball saga as written by Toriyama himself, the source material.

GT is a good ending for the anime adaptation due to its finality.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:57 am

Mireya wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:14 am
Really? I remember it being said that the Cell arc was originally planned as the last tune but Toriyama decided to give it one more note, with even an important figure in Japan influencing him to write one more arc.
This has been debunked on this very site

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/cell/


And Cell's arc seemed perfect to me with its ending... the torch being finally passed on to Goku's son.
This is what I mean by it only works as a ending if you follow the mindset that Dragon Ball and DBZ are separate stories (despite no distinction existing in the manga) its only a good ending if you pretend it’s been Gohan’s story since the Saiyan arc. And it really hasn’t been. He was most prominent in the arc he was introduced in …just like practically every other character. After that he took a backseat until Goku pulled him as a trump card. This isn’t the logical conclusion to Gohan coming into his own it’s Toriyama realizing there’s not much else he can do with Goku and trying to switch gears to his son. It’s not an ending. It’s the start of a new beginning (that we all know Toriyama back tracked on)
I think that's debatable since the Cell arc passed the mantle of Earth's protector to Gohan.
Being earth’s protector isn’t Goku’s thing. He does it but its not his motivation. He wants to fight stronger opponents.

The Boo arc still had Goku taking off with Oob and trying to improve himself and have a fun battle
Which is truer to the spirit of the journey (find stronger opponents) than “I’m gonna stay dead , Gohan you do you buddy whatever that is!!”

. If the 2nd portion of the series were more focused on Gohan,
It wasn’t.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:47 pm

Yep, there's more evidence to show that Toriyama was going to end the series at the Saiyan arc than either Freeza or Cell (with the latter two having plenty of evidence to show it wasn't going to end there). The misconception that the series was going to end at either Freeza or Cell is due to the climactic nature of those endings, but it's otherwise completely unfounded. Other than that, I know he originally didn't plan for Dragon Ball to go past the first Hunt for Dragon Balls arc, and that he threatened to not continue the series after Piccolo Daimao if he couldn't age Goku up.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:37 pm

I will say Goku dying at the end of Cell is a fitting way to close the arc, as it started with him destined to die from the virus and cheating death thanks to Trunks. It's actually kind of poetic, like he couldn't escape his fate. Still a bit too depressing to end DB that way.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:52 pm

Dragon Ball should have ended after the third chapter, which is what he had pre-drawn before the serialization had begun. The production schedule that Shueisha was asking of Toriyama was really inappropriate of them. The damage to his long-term health is quite evident.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:14 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:52 pm Dragon Ball should have ended after the third chapter, which is what he had pre-drawn before the serialization had begun. The production schedule that Shueisha was asking of Toriyama was really inappropriate of them. The damage to his long-term health is quite evident.
This suggests that Toriyama didn't enjoy writing Dragon Ball at any point after the 3rd chapter, which I don't believe to be the case.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball Have Stopped After Cell?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:00 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:14 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:52 pm Dragon Ball should have ended after the third chapter, which is what he had pre-drawn before the serialization had begun. The production schedule that Shueisha was asking of Toriyama was really inappropriate of them. The damage to his long-term health is quite evident.
This suggests that Toriyama didn't enjoy writing Dragon Ball at any point after the 3rd chapter, which I don't believe to be the case.
No, but the idea that he should still draw a chapter in a single week is still inappropriate. The work schedule for weekly comics is torture.
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