What would make a good ending for the series?

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:21 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:46 am It's a whole differently branded series with a completely new plot direction. How is this a serious objection?
That branding was anime only, and how was the plot direction completely new?
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Skar » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:11 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:34 amThat DB's curtain call had exactly zero emotional weight to it, invoking no sense of true completion? What I am saying is that to top off a story, it has to feel like the end of a journey - and Goku's journey, by definition, never ends. So if we do as you say and never change the formula, there will never be a good ending to DB, only false endings in the form of pauses while the production regroups.
I respect your opinion if you think they're all bad. I wouldn't try to change it but I'll give my interpretation and why I don't see it that way.

I think saying that the theme is self-improvement is only part of it. Goku's journey was a martial artist training to as strong as he can become but there was always a new antagonist or rival to keep him motivated. His goal throughout DB was to become the champion of the world tournament. He spared Piccolo Jr to keep him as a rival and also save Kami's life. DBZ took place five years later and we saw that they've mostly kept to themselves. If Raditz never appeared, maybe Goku and Piccolo would've had a rematch then settled down after training occasionally. Without any of the new challenges, they not have improved all that much especially compared to how far they got in DBZ.

I think something that always changed in the series was the scale as Goku continued to improve. After he became the strongest on Earth, Toriyama introduced aliens so that Goku's new challenges led to him becoming the strongest in the universe. The end of his journey in DBZ was becoming so powerful that he was able to face off against the strongest being in history. Buu being reincarnated gave him someone to look forward to training and challenging eventually.

DBS is a midquel but I think it still has the same theme. After introducing the strongest in history at the time, the scale became bigger and we met beings even older and stronger than Buu then from across the multiverse. The series always used the idea that there are more mountains to climb or that there's always a bigger fish because new antagonists were revealed once they defeated who they believed was the absolute strongest. In my opinion, DBS shows the end result of this type of story by introducing the absolute strongest gods in existence. DBS isn't over and is intended to transition to EoZ so it might end with Goku becoming the strongest mortal but still below "cosmic beings" like the Angels and Zeno. That could still give him motivation to train Uub due to his potential and that he might be the only mortal who could challenge Goku at that point.

I do agree the cast didn't really change but I feel it's unfair to say the characters themselves didn't change. It was a story about martial artists so it made sense that they would eventually retire and settle down either by choice or because they couldn't keep up. By the end of the series, only Goku and Vegeta continue to train seriously as far as we know. Vegeta might've remained one form below Goku so that could be why Goku was so excited to meet Uub. I interpreted Goku training and having a rematch against Uub as Goku's last hurray before he's no longer in his prime.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:17 am

An ending can serve as the ending of one journey and leave room for continuation even if it never happens. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate ending.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:24 am

open ended conclusions exist. that's literally how Toriyama ended his manga.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Skar » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:28 am

ABED wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:17 am An ending can serve as the ending of one journey and leave room for continuation even if it never happens. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate ending.
I'm not sure if you're replying to me or an earlier comment from someone else? I was explaining why I considered them legitimate ending. It left room for continuation but I think it implied that the majority of the journey is over and this was the part of the final stretch that will conclude later.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:52 pm

Skar wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:28 am
ABED wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:17 am An ending can serve as the ending of one journey and leave room for continuation even if it never happens. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate ending.
I'm not sure if you're replying to me or an earlier comment from someone else? I was explaining why I considered them legitimate ending. It left room for continuation but I think it implied that the majority of the journey is over and this was the part of the final stretch that will conclude later.
Sorry, I was still responding to Cursed Lemon
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:22 pm

Skar wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:11 amI respect your opinion if you think they're all bad. I wouldn't try to change it but I'll give my interpretation and why I don't see it that way.
I don't even think they're bad. I just think they're not endings. It's like calling "off" a bad TV channel.
I think saying that the theme is self-improvement is only part of it. Goku's journey was a martial artist training to as strong as he can become but there was always a new antagonist or rival to keep him motivated. His goal throughout DB was to become the champion of the world tournament. He spared Piccolo Jr to keep him as a rival and also save Kami's life. DBZ took place five years later and we saw that they've mostly kept to themselves. If Raditz never appeared, maybe Goku and Piccolo would've had a rematch then settled down after training occasionally. Without any of the new challenges, they not have improved all that much especially compared to how far they got in DBZ.

I think something that always changed in the series was the scale as Goku continued to improve. After he became the strongest on Earth, Toriyama introduced aliens so that Goku's new challenges led to him becoming the strongest in the universe. The end of his journey in DBZ was becoming so powerful that he was able to face off against the strongest being in history. Buu being reincarnated gave him someone to look forward to training and challenging eventually.
I think you just highlighted what really drives my point home - Goku has risen to the level of fighting a being more powerful than literal gods, a being who destroyed the planet and everyone on it. He finally gets the victory with a whole-Earth spirit bomb. Then everyone is wished back to life and made to forget everything that Buu did. That is a plotline factory reset. You could actually delete the entire Buu saga and the only thing that would be different is 1) power levels, and 2) Vegeta's attitude. The ending is a reflection of all of that - it's basically Goku giving a thumbs up with a wink while the announcer declares, "next time on Dragon Ball Z".

Now let me repeat for emphasis. Dragon Ball is a goofy action show. It's not a bad thing that the endings are as superficial as most of the plot. But there will never be an actual conclusion without some consequence and/or change, and DB doesn't do either of those things. Ever.
DBS is a midquel but I think it still has the same theme. After introducing the strongest in history at the time, the scale became bigger and we met beings even older and stronger than Buu then from across the multiverse. The series always used the idea that there are more mountains to climb or that there's always a bigger fish because new antagonists were revealed once they defeated who they believed was the absolute strongest. In my opinion, DBS shows the end result of this type of story by introducing the absolute strongest gods in existence. DBS isn't over and is intended to transition to EoZ so it might end with Goku becoming the strongest mortal but still below "cosmic beings" like the Angels and Zeno. That could still give him motivation to train Uub due to his potential and that he might be the only mortal who could challenge Goku at that point.

I do agree the cast didn't really change but I feel it's unfair to say the characters themselves didn't change. It was a story about martial artists so it made sense that they would eventually retire and settle down either by choice or because they couldn't keep up. By the end of the series, only Goku and Vegeta continue to train seriously as far as we know. Vegeta might've remained one form below Goku so that could be why Goku was so excited to meet Uub. I interpreted Goku training and having a rematch against Uub as Goku's last hurray before he's no longer in his prime.
You're more or less falling in line with exactly what I'm saying, which is that the Goku Show never ends because it's always onto the next adventure with no reason to look back, no reason to reflect, no reason to question, no reason to deal with any real ethical substance. The silly thing about this is that there is a place for static characters in fiction, they exist to help other characters grow. But Goku makes every other character except Vegeta so unbelievably irrelevant that they don't get ever get the chance. One of the best things about Super was Krillin's moment in the sun, because a supporting character finally got an opportunity to have doubts, deal with their own issues, test their mettle, and prevail. To the point about endings though, look at what happened at the end of Super - EXACTLY what happened at the end of the Buu saga. Everything got set back to normal. Goku doesn't have to live with the consequences of his dumbfuck multiverse tournament idea putting quadrillions of lives at stake, Vegeta doesn't have to deal with the somberness of never getting to mentor Cabba and losing the only members of his own clan he's ever run into for years, an angel like Vados doesn't have to suffer the loss of their destruction god companion, etc. and no plot points spin up from or resolve down to anything like that. It's just, "put everything back the way it was". What kind of ending is that? It's not. It's, let's see what happens now.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:46 pm

Now let me repeat for emphasis. Dragon Ball is a goofy action show. It's not a bad thing that the endings are as superficial as most of the plot. But there will never be an actual conclusion without some consequence and/or change, and DB doesn't do either of those things. Ever.
And you continue to miss the point. That there could be a continuation doesn't mean those don't count as endings. Terminator leaves the story open for continuation, but it still works as an endiing to that story. It feels complete in and of itself.

At the end of the Buu arc, Goku's friends are happy but they are in a different place. They're older and are doing different things or seemingly ready to retire. Goku is now at the point where he is gonna become the teacher. That's not stasis.

An open ending is still an ending.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:37 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:46 pm And you continue to miss the point. That there could be a continuation doesn't mean those don't count as endings. Terminator leaves the story open for continuation, but it still works as an endiing to that story. It feels complete in and of itself.

At the end of the Buu arc, Goku's friends are happy but they are in a different place. They're older and are doing different things or seemingly ready to retire. Goku is now at the point where he is gonna become the teacher. That's not stasis.

An open ending is still an ending.
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I challenge you to name a story that, according to you, doesn't have an open ending. I will then conceive of events that could POSSIBLY happen after the ending and prove you wrong using your own insipid logic.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:00 am

While they can be easily confused for being the same thing, There is a difference between a "Cliff-hanger" ending and an "Open" Ending to a story, that I think is getting mixed up.

I'm gonna quote a user from an entirely different forum but they summed it up perfectly :
In my view, open endings are where the central plot has been resolved enough to give the reader a sense of closure, but it is clear that there is more that could be told. A cliffhanger is where you end the story without resolving the main story arc, especially if you leave right after ramping up the tension.
I bolded and italicized the parts that I think really signifies the difference between the two, Open ended = There could be more but it doesnt have to be whereas Cliff Hanger = There should be more because the story isn't over.

John Carpenter's "The Thing" has an open ending where the main alien is destroyed but because it can separate itself and assimilate other people there's a possibility that more of "IT" is still alive and thus the movie ends with both Kurt Russle's and Keith David's characters not fully trusting each other.

Hell GT's ending with all its "finality" is still pretty open in that we see Goku and Vegeta's decedents still keeping the fighting spirit alive, Pan is probably more of a mentor at best given her age and even Goku himself may or may not still be alive but the story in and of itself is pretty much over.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Skar » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:34 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:22 pmNow let me repeat for emphasis. Dragon Ball is a goofy action show. It's not a bad thing that the endings are as superficial as most of the plot. But there will never be an actual conclusion without some consequence and/or change, and DB doesn't do either of those things. Ever.
I do agree with most of what you're saying. I still think there were changes even if there weren't as many lasting consequences. Characters still grew older, retired, and settled down. The main thing that changed for Goku was that he transitioned to a teacher and the scale of opponents he was facing. I think the conclusion was how far he was come in his journey for self-improvement that there are barely any mountains left to climb after surpassing some of the strongest beings who could destroy universes. To be honest, I'm not sure what other kind of ending there could be for the series with the way it was written. Naruto wanted to be hokage and Luffy wanted to find the One Piece but Goku's goal has only been to improve as a martial artist. His story either ends when he's near the top or dead.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:44 am

Let's be clear here, all stories ever told resolve the plot in some fashion. If they didn't, then they wouldn't even fit the definition of a story. So that can't really count toward whether or not something is considered "open".

Let's also be clear that all stories ever told also can conceivably have another story told after them. Like I said previously, I can go jot down my version of Saving Private Ryan 2: The Savening right now and not a single soul on Earth can tell me it's not valid (they can however tell me it sucks donkey balls). If we're calling any story that doesn't end with the literal heat death of the universe as "open", that is intellectually lazy and elicits zero conversation.

Given those to precepts, I'd argue the definition of an "open ending" only constitutes two things:

1. A deliberately ambiguous ending designed to make the audience wonder about what actually happened
2. A cliffhanger which specifically hints at the conflict or otherwise huge plot point of an oncoming edition

So what is, for example, DBZ's ending? The saga's plot is resolved. What occurred is not in question, and it is not a cliffhanger because it neither references the previous plot line nor establishes a new one. So how is it "open"? Because the characters could conceivably have more adventures? Sorry but unless - like I said - every story ever told could be considered open, this doesn't count.

Beyond that however, my remark that DB doesn't have true endings except for GT is based not around the idea that they're open-ended (actually that has nothing to do with anything), it's based around the idea that except for power creep there is no movement. Sure, the mechanical plot moves, but the characters and themes don't move. Like I said earlier, if you can cut out an entire saga and only be missing out on a transformation and the bare essentials of one character's emotional development, the show isn't moving and there can't be a real conclusion where there is no reasonable story left to tell, only yet another "open" ending. That's what DB is destined for until the sun explodes, these "open" endings.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:46 am

Dragon ball's very nature lends itself to an open ending - there's always someone better. For Goku, he's reached the absolute top of the mountain, grown from a boy to a man, and has now found a successor that can keep him going, too. In essence, he has sort of become Roshi. And hey, Gohan achieved his dreams of becoming a scholar and is a family man like Goku, the world is peaceful enough that the Saiyan brats can just be normal teenagers instead of child soldiers like Gohan - and shit, Vegeta has gone all the way from genocidal warlord to a father of two married to the second character we see in the entire series. I've criticized the Buu saga for being superfluous (you could've literally done the exact epilogue sans Goku for the Cell saga), but it does stick the landing.

As much as I hate the "Jerkass Goku" nature of it, it's one of those type of endings like a sitcom that serves as succinct summation of the show and closes the book on the story - on top of that, the buu ending comes off the highest stakes and scale we'd seen in DB.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:56 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:20 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:04 pm There are COUNTLESS stand-alone stories even that end without closing the book on everything, yet they're among some of the most beloved endings of all-time.
Name one legendary ending to a story that has no theming and resolves nothing except a surface level good-bad conflict. And I'm not talking about "this work is so immensely popular that people still talk about the ending", I'm talking about ending that is recognized as being good.

You want a simple story with a decent ending? The original Star Wars trilogy is a no-frills heroes journey, yet the deeper implications of the dark and light sides of the Force were a constant theme throughout the first three movies and that came to a head when Luke refuses to kill Vader and then Vader kills Palpatine.

Now explain to me how DB, DBZ, or DBS do anything of the sort. GT tried and sort of succeeded, except the ending had nothing to do with the overall conflict. Julie is absolutely right, DB has absolutely nothing to say and it shows in how the endings aren't actual endings, they're just "it's episode 237 or whatever and our budget ran out so see you the next time we get funding for the exact same adventures with the exact same cast". You can keep repeating that DBZ had a great ending, it doesn't make it true and it shows in how you haven't been able to actually describe what's good about it.
The Wire's ending for example, solves absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things but perfectly serves the theme that in extremely (I emphasize the fuck out of extremely here) broad terms is similar to Dragon Ball - the cycle continues, the story goes on, just with different players. But we're closing the book on this story. The Wire's theme is the system is broken, damn near set up to fail, and any attempt to fix things will go over like a limp penis, and this War on Drugs will just go on and on and on with more lives being lost either to jail or violence while the few people who actually care are drowned out. Dragon Ball's theme is there's always somebody better.

Sure, The Wire is saying something profound, but that doesn't make an ending that summarizes the theme of the series rather than tying up every loose end any less valid without a grand statement about society. I actually prefer those type of endings to grand finales, because like MasenkoHa said, life has no grand finale, just different chapters.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:25 am

The fact that Dragon Ball stopped being written and published after the chapter where Goku and Uub fly off together means that Goku and Uub flying off together is the ending. There shouldn't be any dispute about this, at least without mental gymnastics.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:11 am

but the characters and themes don't move.
They do move and you made that up that the themes have to move to have an ending.
Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:37 pm I challenge you to name a story that, according to you, doesn't have an open ending. I will then conceive of events that could POSSIBLY happen after the ending and prove you wrong using your own insipid logic.
Titanic and Groundhog Day. This conversation is over. You could've been mature, but then you threw out an insult at the very end.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:44 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:44 am
So what is, for example, DBZ's ending?
Goku taking Oob to train him and pass on all knowledge for the fight of his life, with Oob representing the next generation of martial artist. Something that has been a recurring theme of the series.

This has been explained to you, God knows how many times . If the story ended at “Goku defeats Boo and everyone throws a party YAY!” I would agree with whole heartedly with what you’re saying. But that’s not the ending. The ending is Goku meeting the good reincarnation of his most talented opponent and training him to realize his full potential.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Skar » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:38 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:44 amBeyond that however, my remark that DB doesn't have true endings except for GT is based not around the idea that they're open-ended (actually that has nothing to do with anything), it's based around the idea that except for power creep there is no movement. Sure, the mechanical plot moves, but the characters and themes don't move. Like I said earlier, if you can cut out an entire saga and only be missing out on a transformation and the bare essentials of one character's emotional development, the show isn't moving and there can't be a real conclusion where there is no reasonable story left to tell, only yet another "open" ending. That's what DB is destined for until the sun explodes, these "open" endings.
It would be difficult to cut out an entire saga because there was more of a change to the cast than only a new transformation and development for one character. Even though it wasn't as much as Vegeta's development, there were still changes to other cast and they were in a different place than they were at the beginning of the saga. The Cell saga had most of the remaining humans retiring, Krillin getting married and settling down, and Piccolo fusing with Kami to become more of a mentor. In the Buu saga, Gohan met his wife and Mr Satan was able to help save the Earth making up for his lie in the Cell Games. I always saw it as a story about martial artists so their individual journeys ended when they were near their limit or could no longer keep up with the main character and settled down. It continued until Goku was mainly the only one left and near the end of his journey.

I still don't think your interpretation is wrong just that I never really saw it that way. DB was Goku's story so it ended when he was near the absolute top. GT and DBO continued until Goku's story was completely over after he "died" and skipped ahead to a far later generation following the same theme that he inspired. I'm not sure if I would consider EoZ as open ending since Uub's existence was more of a favor from King Yemma so Goku has something to look forward to. After he finishes training Uub, Goku likely returns to his family and farming or whatever else kept him occupied during the ten year timeskip.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:13 am

ABED wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:11 amTitanic
Rose takes up an obsessive interest in engineering to understand why the Titanic, a so-called "unsinkable" ship, sank and killed the man she fell in love with. She becomes the first prominent female shipwright and is responsible for many technological advances in ship safety but her unhealthy fixation on locating the wreck of the Titanic leads her down the path of addiction and a mental health spiral. She also has to deal with falling in love with someone new, something she swore she'd never do in honor of Jack. A near-death experience while out at sea searching for the Titanic's wreck finally makes her understand that honoring Jack never had anything to do with destroying her own life to give his death meaning, it didn't mean "never letting go", it meant living and living well.
ABED wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:11 amGroundhog Day
Phil and Rita's relationship continues but they begin to grow distant at some point. Phil reflects on the possibility that perhaps his miraculous previous experience was coloring . At one point, Phil wakes up on a Tuesday having absolutely no recollection of the Monday before. He tells Rita about this, who explains to him what they did that day. It occurs again the following day, except now three days have gone by. Phil begins to panic. He is progressively losing more and more time to these episodes and is having to rely on Rita to explain to him everything that happened so he can live some kind of continuous existence. He's also terrified that in the days he has no control over, he might've gone back to his impulsive and careless ways. Initially this greatly stresses him, but over time Phil begins to realize that he enjoys simply sitting with Rita and talking, regardless of what's happening; it truly was the charm and personality of her that he was taken with, not some association with a bizarre event. One day he wakes up and his memory is restored - he is the person he wanted to be and Rita is the person he needs in his life.

There. Events could happen, therefore the original endings are "open". Are they stupid as hell? Yep. Do they loosely follow the same theme as the previous work? Yep. Do they qualify here? Also yep. You want me to think up sequels to these sequels? 'Cause I'll do it.

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ABED
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:45 pm

Wow.

Does anyone have something of value to contribute?

DB being left open for possible continuation doesn't equal no ending. Themes are just abstract statements so if a theme doesn't end, that doesn't mean the story doesn't or can't. Saying "the journey never ends" is in itself an ending.

What the hell does a "moving theme" even mean? Can anyone besides Cursed Lemon venture a guess?
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