What would make a good ending for the series?

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:03 pm

In hindsight the Uub ending really is the best we've had so far, although you could certainly make an argument for GT's ending.

The GT ending is the most emotional by far, but is just a bit on the depressing side. Almost every character died of old age without ever seeing Goku again, and we're left with a couple of new characters who are just less interesting clones of Goku and Vegeta. It's still a solid ending, but undermines the optimistic nature of the majority of the story.

Goku flying off with Uub at least feels optimistic and appropriate for Goku's character. The guy is so obsessed with fighting that he had his strongest enemy reincarnated and waited a decade just to fight him again. That's kind of insane, but it's also totally something Goku would do. The only problem I have is the forced drama of Goku leaving his family. They act like they'll never see him again, even though he can teleport to them in an instant. Even if he can't be bothered to go to them, they can fly to him. Aside from that Uub doesn't seem overly passionate about fighting, and sort of feels like another Gohan, which would be fine if he wasn't being built up as Goku's successor. As it stands it feels a bit like he's being reluctantly dragged along for the ride.

I know some people don't like to focus too much on Vegeta as he didn't show up until Z, but the dynamic between him and Goku really worked, and became a staple of the story as it went on. An all out battle between the two honestly wouldn't be the worst of endings. DB Online went with this, although having them both kill each other was a bit over the top.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:15 pm

Goku and Vegeta going off to space for one big battle just sounds so….dumb. It sounds like something a 10 year old came up with.

Vegeta is practically a co-lead as of Dragon Ball Super so I wouldn’t mind him being worked as an integral part of that era’s ending but there are better more interesting ways to do it than Dragon Ball Online.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:25 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:03 pm Goku flying off with Uub at least feels optimistic and appropriate for Goku's character. The guy is so obsessed with fighting that he had his strongest enemy reincarnated and waited a decade just to fight him again. That's kind of insane, but it's also totally something Goku would do. The only problem I have is the forced drama of Goku leaving his family. They act like they'll never see him again, even though he can teleport to them in an instant. Even if he can't be bothered to go to them, they can fly to him. Aside from that Uub doesn't seem overly passionate about fighting, and sort of feels like another Gohan, which would be fine if he wasn't being built up as Goku's successor. As it stands it feels a bit like he's being reluctantly dragged along for the ride.
I don't feel like the ending builds Oob as Goku's successor. It's moreso that Goku sees the reincarnation of the most powerful foe he's faced in a good kid, and wants to show him the ropes. It's about passing on what he's learned while also pushing himself to still get stronger. What Oob decides to do with it is up to him, but I see it as being more about Goku than Oob.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:07 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:25 pm I don't feel like the ending builds Oob as Goku's successor. It's moreso that Goku sees the reincarnation of the most powerful foe he's faced in a good kid, and wants to show him the ropes. It's about passing on what he's learned while also pushing himself to still get stronger. What Oob decides to do with it is up to him, but I see it as being more about Goku than Oob.
True, but even if he's ultimately just Goku's sparring partner, it would have made more sense to have him be confident and battle hungry. Putting GT aside and just going by Z's ending alone, it isn't exactly evident that Uub's heart is in it. If somewhere down the line he decides he wants a normal life, Goku's plan goes out the window and he's left with nobody to fight.

I guess Toriyama just wanted to make it abundantly clear that he was the opposite of his former self. It's just an odd choice to give Uub a timid and reluctant personality like Gohan, after he ultimately had Gohan quit fighting.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:01 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:07 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:25 pm I don't feel like the ending builds Oob as Goku's successor. It's moreso that Goku sees the reincarnation of the most powerful foe he's faced in a good kid, and wants to show him the ropes. It's about passing on what he's learned while also pushing himself to still get stronger. What Oob decides to do with it is up to him, but I see it as being more about Goku than Oob.
True, but even if he's ultimately just Goku's sparring partner, it would have made more sense to have him be confident and battle hungry. Putting GT aside and just going by Z's ending alone, it isn't exactly evident that Uub's heart is in it. If somewhere down the line he decides he wants a normal life, Goku's plan goes out the window and he's left with nobody to fight.

I guess Toriyama just wanted to make it abundantly clear that he was the opposite of his former self. It's just an odd choice to give Uub a timid and reluctant personality like Gohan, after he ultimately had Gohan quit fighting.
I think it makes sense to have Oob be different from Goku. I don't think his timid personality has to do with him not wanting to fight. It's moreso that he's an incredibly gifted kid from an humble background who hasn't had a proper teacher. I have a feeling Goku's carefree attitude and personality loosened him up a lot. If Toriyama wanted to show that Goku's trainee was Goku's match in personality, he would have just had him fly off with Pan.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:52 pm

The ending to the 23rd truly is a perfect ending to Goku's story for the reasons you stated. Obviously, we got a lot of great stuff afterwards so I'm glad it continued beyond, but at that point it felt like Goku had reached his peak. He had finally achieved his goal and had his sights set on even greater heights, and we witnessed him as not only a stronger but wiser fighter. I think the anime really heightens this feeling, from the sun poking out from the clouds down to Bulma (the person who has known him the longest) getting misty-eyed seeing him and saying "Goku used to be such a runt, but now...." The significance and beauty of this cannot be overstated.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by BeaBumby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:24 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:52 pm
The ending to the 23rd truly is a perfect ending to Goku's story for the reasons you stated. Obviously, we got a lot of great stuff afterwards so I'm glad it continued beyond, but at that point it felt like Goku had reached his peak. He had finally achieved his goal and had his sights set on even greater heights, and we witnessed him as not only a stronger but wiser fighter. I think the anime really heightens this feeling, from the sun poking out from the clouds down to Bulma (the person who has known him the longest) getting misty-eyed seeing him and saying "Goku used to be such a runt, but now...." The significance and beauty of this cannot be overstated.
I'll be honest a part of me prefers Gokuu (two U's is fun) as a skilled martial artist rather than a god
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:13 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:25 pm
90sDBZ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:03 pm Goku flying off with Uub at least feels optimistic and appropriate for Goku's character. The guy is so obsessed with fighting that he had his strongest enemy reincarnated and waited a decade just to fight him again. That's kind of insane, but it's also totally something Goku would do. The only problem I have is the forced drama of Goku leaving his family. They act like they'll never see him again, even though he can teleport to them in an instant. Even if he can't be bothered to go to them, they can fly to him. Aside from that Uub doesn't seem overly passionate about fighting, and sort of feels like another Gohan, which would be fine if he wasn't being built up as Goku's successor. As it stands it feels a bit like he's being reluctantly dragged along for the ride.
I don't feel like the ending builds Oob as Goku's successor. It's moreso that Goku sees the reincarnation of the most powerful foe he's faced in a good kid, and wants to show him the ropes. It's about passing on what he's learned while also pushing himself to still get stronger. What Oob decides to do with it is up to him, but I see it as being more about Goku than Oob.
As it should be. It's the ending of several hundred episodes and chapters, so it should be about Goku, not the kid we just met at the very tail end.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:30 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:45 am
Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:25 am . Ergo, the series can't have a truly satisfying ending because no noteworthy motifs are being fulfilled and tied up in a pretty bow by the end of it all.
The theme is self improvement and always climbing new mountains to better one self. So yes it has 2 maybe 3 “endings” that satisfy this.

This is why the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai would have been a fantastic finale. Goku leaves his home to become stronger. Of course that’s a very broad goal so winning the Tenkaichi Tournament gives him a tangible goal to achieve. He wins the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and is officially declared the strongest person in the world. Piccolo is kept around to give Goku someone to keep him on his toes so he doesn’t slack off, the very thing Roshi feared would happen if he had won previous tournaments.


And the actual ending of the manga accomplishes this in a different way. Goku meets the reincarnation of the greatest opponent he ever face. He’s going to take Oob to train him and pass on everything he learned from Grandpa Gohan, Kame Sennin, Karin, Kami, and Kaio and then get the fight of his life.


And finally Battle of Gods while not really an ending, taking place before the manga’s epilogue and all, provides an alternative thematic ending for people who don’t like the manga’s ending. Goku becomes more powerful than he could ever dream of and still can’t match Beerus and then learns Whis is ever stronger. “No matter how strong you get there will always be so someone stronger”

And yeah GT’s ending isn’t as strong thematically but it gives a sentimental “The Hero that touched and changed lives for the better says goodbye to everyone”’ that pulls on the heart strings. And like I said I can understand why fans who prefer Goku as a paragon of justice would prefer this ending
Those aren't true endings though, they're segues into future content/storylines based around the same premise. People complain here all the time that DBZ is just a direct continuation of DB, or that the franchise can't get out of EoZ status, well that's because basically nothing of consequence ever happens in the dang show and no themes are allowed to develop (or stay consistent).

For example, the most egregious element standing in the way of DB having some semblance of development is some heroes need to die and stay dead (and no, permanent fusion is not "dead"). What is the only major hero cast change from the middle of DB ALL the way up to present day? Vegeta. That's pretty much it. It's like, no wonder the show can't end.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:36 pm

Dude, we just told you the theme is self improvement. You just made an imaginary tangent about people not staying dead to fuel an argument. Toriyama has never tried to make a theme out of death.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

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90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:41 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:36 pm Dude, we just told you the theme is self improvement.
That theme literally never ends.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:43 pm

You got me there. I even tried to avoid using words like Eternal Self Improvement so you wouldnt and yet you did. AWESOME. Anyway, I think an ending like the manga's or even the Super Anime's are the most fitting.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:47 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:30 pm

Those aren't true endings though, they're segues into future content/storylines based around the same premise.
How is the ending of the manga and the ending of GT not qualified for true endings? Anything is possible when you make up arbitrary rules.


People complain here all the time that DBZ is just a direct continuation of DB
No one has ever made that complaint. Literally no one.
or that the franchise can't get out of EoZ status
I mean you’re actually right about that complaint, it’s a dumb complaint but I will grant you it’s something fans actually obsessively complain about. It’s completely irrelevant to the argument that Dragon Ball can’t have a satisfying conclusion but hey!

, well that's because basically nothing of consequence ever happens in the dang show and no themes are allowed to develop (or stay consistent).
Besides the overall theme of always striving to get better?

For example, the most egregious element standing in the way of DB having some semblance of development is some heroes need to die and stay dead (and no, permanent fusion is not "dead")
You know a story can end without people dying right? Everyone dies is not the only type of narrative
ending that can exist.
That's pretty much it. It's like, no wonder the show can't end.
It’s not ending because it still makes money for Shueisha and Bandai and Toei. It has fuck all to do with not having a way to end things. Because it again it has had multiple points where it could have ended in a satisfying way. And two of them (the manga/Z ending and GT) are actual endings. Intended to close the book on the story and both do it well.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:06 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:47 pmHow is the ending of the manga and the ending of GT not qualified for true endings? Anything is possible when you make up arbitrary rules.
Oh man. I guess I shouldn't be discussing the deeper implications of what makes up an ending in a thread about endings. My bad.

So go ahead and explain to me what element of finality is explored in the ending to DBZ. What book gets closed there? What will never be the same after the Buu saga? Better yet, how is the ending to DBZ better than the ending to DBS?
Besides the overall theme of always striving to get better?
Which, by definition, CAN'T end.
You know a story can end without people dying right? Everyone dies is not the only type of narrative ending that can exist.
Great! So since we're in a thread about endings, come up with one that fits some kind of three-arc format or some other discernible plot development line throughout any DB series.

Oh wait, Dragon Ball doesn't do that. Because the writing isn't that good. Is everyone here in some weird form of denial and thinks that DB is Shakespeare instead of a goofy action show?
It’s not ending because it still makes money for Shueisha and Bandai and Toei. It has fuck all to do with not having a way to end things. Because it again it has had multiple points where it could have ended in a satisfying way. And two of them (the manga/Z ending and GT) are actual endings. Intended to close the book on the story and both do it well.
GT at least tried to say, "what you know, what you've experienced, is over". It even did this by incorporating what is arguably a pretty decent plot point in that the very namesake of the show, the Dragon Balls, are what's eventually bringing about the doom of the universe.

Yes, please continue to inform me on how the show's story structure (or lack thereof) isn't relevant to its inability to form a proper ending.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:23 pm

Forgive me if I'm woefully missing a point somewhere, but where are you going with any of this ?
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:41 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:36 pm Dude, we just told you the theme is self improvement.
That theme literally never ends.
Which is the point. That doesn't mean the story can't end. That the story doesn't have a definitive "the story can't go past this point" ending doesn't mean there can't be a definitive satisfying conclusion. An ending that says "there isn't some glorious end point, we all have to strive to make ourselves better each day" is a very satisfying conclusion.

What to you is a "proper ending"? A proper ending to a story is one that pays off its stories and themes and makes a point. DB's endings definitely do that.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:06 pm
So go ahead and explain to me what element of finality is explored in the ending to DBZ. What book gets closed there?
And this is the problem. Endings don’t have to be final. Aside from death itself life doesn’t have finality.

Dragon Ball began with Goku leaving his home in Mount Paozu to become stronger and find stronger opponents to test himself. There’s also a theme of passing onto the next generation. Muten Roshi doesn’t want Goku or Kuririn to win their first tournament because they’re too young and swell heads may lead to apathy in the desire to become stronger. He forfeits his match to Tenshinhan when he feels confident that Tenshinhan can be the obstacle to keep Goku striving that he himself can’t be anymore. By the time of the Boo arc most of the martial artist characters have retire and with Goku being dead he tries to pass things off to the next generation. As it turns out Gohan, Trunks, and Goten just aren’t up to snuff. Their hearts aren’t in it as martial artist. Oob is the culmination of everything. He’s going to give Goku the fight of his life once Goku trains him and passes all his knowledge he learned over the years from all his past mentors. The student is now the master. Oob represents the next generation of martial artist. We don’t need to see Goku die and ascend to heaven and tell Oob “You’re Goku now!” the implication is understood; Goku won’t be around forever but he can pass on his knowledge to Oob.

And yes I agree with WittyUsername that Super severely undermines this ending but that doesn’t really matter.

What will never be the same after the Buu saga? Better yet, how is the ending to DBZ better than the ending to DBS?
Because Dragon Ball Super isn’t any type of ending. The Tournament of Power is over. Happy friends and family montage. Goku and Vegeta fly toward each other to spar….again. That’s it.

Which, by definition, CAN'T end.
And you can still find tangible end goals even within a broader themes. This is, again, why I said the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament actually is the best ending. Yes Goku can still become stronger but winning the tournament, a goal since the second arc of the story, gives him something to show for it.



Great! So since we're in a thread about endings, come up with one that fits some kind of three-arc format or some other discernible plot development line throughout any DB series.
Damn it’s almost like the Tenkaichi Tournaments is exactly that. Really over 6 arcs but 3 dedicated strictly to the tournament.


Oh wait, Dragon Ball doesn't do that. Because the writing isn't that good. Is everyone here in some weird form of denial and thinks that DB is Shakespeare instead of a goofy action show?
What a hilariously bad faith argument. No one is in denial of what kind of show Dragon Ball is. That doesn’t make your argument that Dragon Ball can’t have any kind of satisfying conclusion (which it has, multiple times) or that it doesn’t have any themes any less wrong.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:30 pm For example, the most egregious element standing in the way of DB having some semblance of development is some heroes need to die and stay dead (and no, permanent fusion is not "dead"). What is the only major hero cast change from the middle of DB ALL the way up to present day? Vegeta. That's pretty much it. It's like, no wonder the show can't end.
DB is all about life and living, not death. Which is why the antagonists are always anti-life and death-dealers. The heroes don't die because they have the Dragon Balls, and the story is all about renewal and second chances.

None of this means that the story cannot develop or end, as it did both.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:48 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm Aside from death itself life doesn’t have finality.
Stories do. And that's where we're apparently going to have to disagree.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:53 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:48 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm Aside from death itself life doesn’t have finality.
Stories do. And that's where we're apparently going to have to disagree.
Sure and the ending can say "This is where our journey ends, our friends will go and have more adventures because there's no great end to all of this."
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