What would make a good ending for the series?

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Cure Dragon 255
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:56 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:48 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm Aside from death itself life doesn’t have finality.
Stories do. And that's where we're apparently going to have to disagree.
But you are the one dragging your feet around the fact that Dragon Ball can and has had a more than satistfying ending. But you know what, its pointless if we are never going to convince each other. Lets just give up.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:04 pm

There are COUNTLESS stand-alone stories even that end without closing the book on everything, yet they're among some of the most beloved endings of all-time. Arguing that the ending of Dragon Ball Z is somehow discredited because it's not FINAL in every respect doesn't make sense. You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean it's invalidated.

But seriously, this isn't unique to Dragon Ball at ALL so I don't understand what point you're trying to prove by saying "the theme that never ends." As you said, we'll just agree to disagree.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:15 pm

Dragon Ball would have to firmly have something to say to really have a satisfying ending.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:15 pm Dragon Ball would have to firmly have something to say to really have a satisfying ending.
But why though? Plenty of series with something to say can have endings that aren’t satisfactory, usually because they fail to stick the landing.

Dragon Ball is very simplistic and low aiming and it succeeds well at what it does, which yes, because apparently it needs to be repeated less we get accused of treating Dragon Ball like it’s Shakespeare, isn’t a high hurdle to clear.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:55 pm

Even Shakespeare had his tried and true formula. Toriyama has his. They're two different people, so it stands to reason they have different ways they want to tell a story, and with different end goals in mind. Whenever something "not being Shakespeare" is thrown around to discredit something that wasn't trying to be Shakespeare to begin with, it comes off pretentious as hell, whether it's meant to or not. Also, I've been re-watching the series over the past month, and I don't understand the obsession some Dragon Ball fans have with it needing to be something it's not to be considered "legitimitely good." It does what it sets out to do adequately, which is all a story needs to do; it doesn't need to make a statement to become some form of "higher art."
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:59 pm

I agree with Masenko, I don't see why a work needs to have a deep message about human nature and the flaws of society in order to be good. Not that I'm against deep messages, in fact I love works that are mainly focused on philosophical introspection, but I feel like "deep navel gazing philosophy" and "simplistic inspirational action" are equally valid forms of entertainment with their own separate goals. Dragon Ball belongs to the latter camp, and I think it's one of the best works to come out of that camp.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:55 pm Even Shakespeare had his tried and true formula. Toriyama has his. They're two different people, so it stands to reason they have different ways they want to tell a story. Whenever something "not being Shakespeare" is thrown around to discredit something that wasn't trying to be Shakespeare to begin with, it comes off pretentious as hell, whether it's meant to or not.
Yeah, I've always thought that "it's not Shakespeare" had somewhat pretentious implications, even if some people don't mean it that way. I feel like it's fine to like something without worrying about whether it lives up to some of the most iconic works in human history.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:04 pm

ZeroIsOurHero wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:59 pm I agree with Masenko, I don't see why a work needs to have a deep message about human nature and the flaws of society in order to be good. Not that I'm against deep messages, in fact I love works that are mainly focused on philosophical introspection, but I feel like "deep navel gazing philosophy" and "simplistic inspirational action" are equally valid forms of entertainment with their own separate goals. Dragon Ball belongs to the latter camp, and I think it's one of the best works to come out of that camp.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:55 pm Even Shakespeare had his tried and true formula. Toriyama has his. They're two different people, so it stands to reason they have different ways they want to tell a story. Whenever something "not being Shakespeare" is thrown around to discredit something that wasn't trying to be Shakespeare to begin with, it comes off pretentious as hell, whether it's meant to or not.
Yeah, I've always thought that "it's not Shakespeare" had somewhat pretentious implications, even if some people don't mean it that way. I feel like it's fine to like something without worrying about whether it lives up to some of the most iconic works in human history.
Maybe I'm generalizing here, but I think it's a statement people like to throw around for some odd validation that they have "good taste." But it comes off ridiculous almost every time. I'm not watching/reading Dragon Ball because I want Shakespeare. If I want Shakespeare, I'll read Shakespeare (which I have on occasion). But if we're discussing Dragon Ball's story, it's better to frame it around what Akira Toriyama actually set out to do than to try to strawman as though him "not being Shakespeare" means he's a bad writer. Shakespeare is just one way of telling a story, not the gold standard (imho) or the only one with merit.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Skar » Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:21 pm

I liked all the endings to be honest. I agree that the main theme of DB is self-improvement so something that shows the characters continuing that is good enough for me. I don't agree that it wouldn't count as an ending since I think there are plenty of action series that could end with the hero having more room to grow, more villains to fight, or not fully achieved his goal.

Realistically, all these stories will have a definitive conclusion that the author decided not to show. Goku might eventually hit a natural limit or no longer in his prime and can't improve anymore or as much. Maybe it's like GT or DBO and the characters live out the rest of their lives in peace. They've dealt with all major threats who were all outliers so it could be a few hundred years or longer before another one emerges. That kind of ending might be less light-hearted than ending it when the main character is still in their prime and striving for more.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:49 pm

But that's the thing, a theme of self improvement would be undercut by a definitive ending. There is no goal line. The way to end is to wrap up the plot threads and then demonstrate the theme in some manner.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Skar » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:42 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:49 pm But that's the thing, a theme of self improvement would be undercut by a definitive ending. There is no goal line. The way to end is to wrap up the plot threads and then demonstrate the theme in some manner.
I do agree with that but I just meant both could be considered endings. I don't think it was only self-improvement since he had a goal in mind after the Buu saga. Buu was the strongest opponent in history (at the time) and Goku wasn't able to defeat him on his own. Uub gave him an opportunity for a rematch once his training was over.

In GT, they did have a rematch and Uub just returned to his village. If Pilaf didn't appear and lead to other antagonists then not much else would've happened after their rematch. I think self-improvement is still a theme in GT but there weren't any rivals by the end of it so they showed a far later generation continuing that theme.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:20 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:04 pm There are COUNTLESS stand-alone stories even that end without closing the book on everything, yet they're among some of the most beloved endings of all-time.
Name one legendary ending to a story that has no theming and resolves nothing except a surface level good-bad conflict. And I'm not talking about "this work is so immensely popular that people still talk about the ending", I'm talking about ending that is recognized as being good.

You want a simple story with a decent ending? The original Star Wars trilogy is a no-frills heroes journey, yet the deeper implications of the dark and light sides of the Force were a constant theme throughout the first three movies and that came to a head when Luke refuses to kill Vader and then Vader kills Palpatine.

Now explain to me how DB, DBZ, or DBS do anything of the sort. GT tried and sort of succeeded, except the ending had nothing to do with the overall conflict. Julie is absolutely right, DB has absolutely nothing to say and it shows in how the endings aren't actual endings, they're just "it's episode 237 or whatever and our budget ran out so see you the next time we get funding for the exact same adventures with the exact same cast". You can keep repeating that DBZ had a great ending, it doesn't make it true and it shows in how you haven't been able to actually describe what's good about it.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:22 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:20 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:04 pm There are COUNTLESS stand-alone stories even that end without closing the book on everything, yet they're among some of the most beloved endings of all-time.
Name one legendary ending to a story that has no theming and resolves nothing except a surface level good-bad conflict. And I'm not talking about "this work is so immensely popular that people still talk about the ending", I'm talking about ending that is recognized as being good.

You want a simple story with a decent ending? The original Star Wars trilogy is a no-frills heroes journey, yet the deeper implications of the dark and light sides of the Force were a constant theme throughout the first three movies and that came to a head when Luke refuses to kill Vader and then Vader kills Palpatine.

Now explain to me how DB, DBZ, or DBS do anything of the sort. GT tried and sort of succeeded, except the ending had nothing to do with the overall conflict. Julie is absolutely right, DB has absolutely nothing to say and it shows in how the endings aren't actual endings, they're just "it's episode 237 or whatever and our budget ran out so see you the next time we get funding for the exact same adventures with the exact same cast". You can keep repeating that DBZ had a great ending, it doesn't make it true and it shows in how you haven't been able to actually describe what's good about it.
It has a theme - Self-improvement. And then you came back with "that's a theme that never ends" as though that's a criticism. Who said themes have to have an end? You made that up.

how is the end of DB not a good ending? Goku has finally won the tournament he's been trying to win for years, the creator of the DB's sees how his creation brought together a group of heroes who saved the world, and by letting Piccolo live, we know Goku will be kept on his toes and constantly strive to get better.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:49 pm

The original trilogy's conclusion was natural for that story. Dragon Ball's ending is natural for its story. I'm not arguing over which one is better, I'm just not understanding your argument that its different endings can't be satisfying as they are.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:55 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:20 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:04 pm There are COUNTLESS stand-alone stories even that end without closing the book on everything, yet they're among some of the most beloved endings of all-time.
Name one legendary ending to a story that has no theming and resolves nothing except a surface level good-bad conflict. And I'm not talking about "this work is so immensely popular that people still talk about the ending", I'm talking about ending that is recognized as being good.

You want a simple story with a decent ending? The original Star Wars trilogy is a no-frills heroes journey, yet the deeper implications of the dark and light sides of the Force were a constant theme throughout the first three movies and that came to a head when Luke refuses to kill Vader and then Vader kills Palpatine.

Now explain to me how DB, DBZ, or DBS do anything of the sort. GT tried and sort of succeeded, except the ending had nothing to do with the overall conflict. Julie is absolutely right, DB has absolutely nothing to say and it shows in how the endings aren't actual endings, they're just "it's episode 237 or whatever and our budget ran out so see you the next time we get funding for the exact same adventures with the exact same cast". You can keep repeating that DBZ had a great ending, it doesn't make it true and it shows in how you haven't been able to actually describe what's good about it.

So again the ending of the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament does in fact resolve the whole “Goku wants to win a Tenkaichi Tournament” that’s been spread out over multiple arcs.

And it’s already been explained to you why Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and GT all have good endings you just keep sticking your fingers in your ears and making nonsense arguments. Dragon Ball doesn’t have any themes! Oh yeah well that theme is too broad so it doesn’t count!

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:02 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:49 pmThe original trilogy's conclusion was natural for that story. Dragon Ball's ending is natural for its story. I'm not arguing over which one is better, I'm just not understanding your argument that its different endings can't be satisfying as they are.
So your argument in this thread essentially boils down to "DB/Z has a nothing-happening story so it's okay for it to have a nothing-happening ending"

Because I cannot seem to get a straight answer out of you about why DB/Z's ending is good other than "it fits the show".

So the math here is, apparently, mediocre + mediocre = good

I also have yet to hear an argument as to why, in this context, Super's ending is bad.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:07 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:02 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:49 pmThe original trilogy's conclusion was natural for that story. Dragon Ball's ending is natural for its story. I'm not arguing over which one is better, I'm just not understanding your argument that its different endings can't be satisfying as they are.
So your argument in this thread essentially boils down to "DB/Z has a nothing-happening story so it's okay for it to have a nothing-happening ending"

Because I cannot seem to get a straight answer out of you about why DB/Z's ending is good other than "it fits the show".

So the math here is, apparently, mediocre + mediocre = good

I also have yet to hear an argument as to why, in this context, Super's ending is bad.
This isn't merely a difference of opinion. You are making a disingenuous argument.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:10 pm

Art is subjective. No one can definitively state whether or not something is good or bad as a hard fact or truth. If that's what you're waiting for me to prove, Cursed Lemon, then you're wasting your time. Your reasonings for not thinking it's good are valid for you, but they're still subjective.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:12 pm

Cursed Lemon, no one even said Super's ending is bad.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:16 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:10 pm Art is subjective. No one can definitely state whether or not something is good or bad. If that's what you're waiting for me to prove, Cursed Lemon, then you're wasting your time. Your reasonings for not thinking it's good are valid for you, but they're still subjective.
Whether he likes them or not is fine, but the reasoning is flawed. What about the concept of "theme" means themes have to end?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:20 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:16 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:10 pm Art is subjective. No one can definitely state whether or not something is good or bad. If that's what you're waiting for me to prove, Cursed Lemon, then you're wasting your time. Your reasonings for not thinking it's good are valid for you, but they're still subjective.
Whether he likes them or not is fine, but the reasoning is flawed. What about the concept of "theme" means themes have to end?
No, I'm on the same page with you. I don't think the argument that "themes have to end" makes sense. I was moreso just saying that if that's his criteria for judging a story, then I guess that determines what stories he enjoys.

Honestly though...I really don't get the reasoning, even down to the Star Wars example. Themes in Star Wars don't really end either.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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