What would make a good ending for the series?

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:29 pm

Hell, Star Wars has an end but it still leaves a big thread open. The empire is far from gone. But it still works as a stand alone, satisfying ending. The ending of DB and DBZ have more definitive (for lack of a better word) endings.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:30 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:07 pmThis isn't merely a difference of opinion. You are making a disingenuous argument.
I stated my opinion that DB doesn't have good endings because it doesn't have good stories to make good endings. You guys proceeded to get personally offended by the idea that DB isn't good at storytelling and then try to tell me either that 1) an ending is good if it's as aimless as the story it came from, or 2) that...the ending is good because it's the end, which is what I'm filing "Goku won the 23rd tournament" under.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:10 pm Art is subjective. No one can definitively state whether or not something is good or bad as a hard fact or truth. If that's what you're waiting for me to prove, Cursed Lemon, then you're wasting your time. Your reasonings for not thinking it's good are valid for you, but they're still subjective.
Fantastic, so we've established the point of having a conversation, can we possibly have one now without people getting weirdly bent out of shape?
ABED wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:16 pmWhether he likes them or not is fine, but the reasoning is flawed. What about the concept of "theme" means themes have to end?
I don't even know what you're attempting to say here, that the "themes end".

Stories are supposed to have movement and an arc, and the theme is what drives and informs those things. Without those elements, there is no rational end point for the story at any time. In fact...
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:55 pm And it’s already been explained to you why Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and GT all have good endings you just keep sticking your fingers in your ears and making nonsense arguments. Dragon Ball doesn’t have any themes! Oh yeah well that theme is too broad so it doesn’t count!
...Let's play a game.

Let's say that DBZ ended after the saiyan saga.

Or after the Frieza saga.

Or after the Cell saga.

Someone explain to me why those ending points would've been subpar and/or arbitrary compared to ending it after the Buu saga, if the ending that we actually got is just that good. There is no possible way that all of those endings can be 1) good, and 2) equally good, because that makes absolutely no narrative sense given that they end on slightly differing mood notes.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:32 pm

The only one who has gotten weirdly bent out of shape is you, merely because people have challenged your points and your rebuttals haven't held up. Just because we're letting you know why we disagree doesn't mean we're offended. What a silly accusation.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:35 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:41 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:36 pm Dude, we just told you the theme is self improvement.
That theme literally never ends.
Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:30 pm I don't even know what you're attempting to say here, that the "themes end".
I don't understand your point either. You were the one who implied themes not ending are bad

And for the millionth time, DB has a theme - self improvement.
Stories are supposed to have movement and an arc, and the theme is what drives and informs those things. Without those elements, there is no rational end point for the story at any time. In fact...
Both endings do have an arc. In the first case, Goku achieves a goal he's had for damn near the beginning. At the end of DBZ, he's become a master and will pass on what he's learned to the reincarnation of the strongest being he's ever faced. He's gone from student to master and he will continue to grow. If the theme has no end, the way to dramatize that is show they will continue to improve even if the audience doesn't get to see it.

At the end of the Saiyan arc, we've gotten foreshadowing of an even greater threat, Goku's friends are dead and need to be brought back. Vegeta has threatened to return. At the end of the Freeza arc, Goku's off in space somewhere alive. How is that a satisfying conclusion? And in the Cell arc, Gohan was made the main character, but it wasn't a satisfying payoff.
2) that...the ending is good because it's the end, which is what I'm filing "Goku won the 23rd tournament" under.
Who said that? No one I saw. We said it's a satisfying conclusion because Goku finally achieved a long term goal and wrapped up all the loose ends.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:56 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:30 pm [
...Let's play a game.

Let's say that DBZ ended after the saiyan saga.

Or after the Frieza saga.

Or after the Cell saga.

Someone explain to me why those ending points would've been subpar and/or arbitrary compared to ending it after the Buu saga, if the ending that we actually got is just that good. There is no possible way that all of those endings can be 1) good, and 2) equally good, because that makes absolutely no narrative sense given that they end on slightly differing mood notes.

This is fun because I have done this before.


The Saiyan arc should go without saying because it leaves on a downer that doesn’t feel conclusive . Namely Yamucha, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu are dead. If the Saiyan arc had been the ending it would have felt weirdly tacked on. Toeiyama had an adequate end point with the 23rd Tenkaichi and then he introduced Goku’s son and that Goku and Piccolo are aliens and then uh half the fighters die, we learn about Piccolo’s home world having its own dragon balls and that’s it. No one seriously in the right mind would advocate for the Saiyan arc to be a good series ending because it clearly isn’t

For the Freeza arc, and I’ve argued this multiple times elsewhere, it’s only a good ending if you pretend the story doesn’t REALLY start until Raditz arrives on earth. Goku fulfilling a legend and stopping the tyrant that destroyed his home planet is neat and all but none of that stuff was even relevant until the Saiyan arc. This is why I felt Dragon Ball Kai gets it wrong by starting with the Bardock tv special as a prologue and quickly recapping the events of pre-Z Dragon Ball. It frames the narrative as “This is a story about an alien refugee who becomes his people’s last hope to avenge them” it sets up Goku vs Freeza as the ultimate endgame of the series and all that stuff with Goku growing up before finding out he’s a Saiyan? Yeah that stuff doesn’t really matter. Ending at Freeza is a good ending for “Dragon Ball Z” but not for Dragon Ball as a whole


And again, I apparently can’t stress this enough, the Cell arc is a terrible ending for the series unless you’re looking at it from the (completely wrong) mindset that Dragon Ball is Goku’s story and Dragon Ball Z is Gohan’s story. Because if Dragon Ball Z is Gohan’s story than the Cell arc would be the perfect ending because he comes into his own but that’s not it because Z is just a rebranding its all one larger story. And Gohan has not been the main character. He was prominent in his introductory arc like everyone else and then got pushed to the background up until the Cell Games. It didn’t suddenly become Gohan’s story and ending the series with “And now Gohan is the main hero but that’s the end of the story good night everyone!” would have felt hollow. We’re ending the series on a character taking over the position of earth’s protector from his dad when his dad never cared that much about protecting the earth?


The Boo arc ends full circle. Goku left home to get stronger and find stronger opponents on his way he met and was trained under several mentors. Now he is going to mentor his own student that will give him the big fight he’s been looking for. Oob also represents the “next generation” of fighters that Roshi had been talking about all the way back. It’s not the best ending, because as I’ve said a tiresome amount of times, the 23rd Budokai is a way better ending, but it is a significantly better ending than ending at the Saiyan, Freeza, or Cell arcs.
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:57 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:35 pm I don't understand your point either. You were the one who implied themes not ending are bad

And for the millionth time, DB has a theme - self improvement.
We're talking about endings. If a theme doesn't have a resolution to the conflicts it's implying and the questions it's raising, it can't have a true ending, just a stopping point for when the writers decide they're done. Self-improvement, by itself, cannot have a true ending, otherwise every single victory in the entire show could've been the ending because there's no greater strife occurring.

What questions does any DB series raise?

"Can Goku beat this guy?"

Spoiler alert: he beats him. We can end it at episode 50 or episode 500, it depends on how much money we're making and whether or not Toei/Toriyama feels like doing something else, NOT whether we've actually neatly wrapped up a motif.

The difference between a good ending and a bad ending is that you can't keep the story going past a good ending, because there's no story left to tell, you said everything the story had to say. That's exactly why GT's ending is moderately decent, it pulled us into a world where things aren't how we've known them anymore and yet there is the lingering air of Goku's resolve present in his descendants. Goku moved on to something else, a different and greater purpose - an almost immaterial purpose, which is a VERY metaphorical venture - and the world is left with solemn memories of him.

That's an ENDING. I wouldn't call it great, but it tried.
Both endings do have an arc. In the first case, Goku achieves a goal he's had for damn near the beginning. At the end of DBZ, he's become a master and will pass on what he's learned to the reincarnation of the strongest being he's ever faced. He's gone from student to master and he will continue to grow.
Grow? Goku never grows. He's the exact same person from the start of DB to the end of DBS (except dumber). This is the point I'm making and the one you guys I'm pretty sure are not getting on purpose, nothing changes.

The staggering irony here is that I'm always the one talking about how DB is a show about punching people in the face, and yet here when I'm trying to emphasize that fact to show that it's not conducive to endings, it's somehow being used against me lol
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:02 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:57 pm The staggering irony here is that I'm always the one talking about how DB is a show about punching people in the face, and yet here when I'm trying to emphasize that fact to show that it's not conducive to endings, it's somehow being used against me lol
That's because this is not a fact at all. And nothing you have said actually supports this.
The difference between a good ending and a bad ending is that you can't keep the story going past a good ending, because there's no story left to tell, you said everything the story had to say.
Then why the hell did you use the original Star Wars trilogy as an example of a good ending earlier? Clearly you can keep going past a good ending. Like, what?
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:26 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:57 pm
We're talking about endings. If a theme doesn't have a resolution to the conflicts it's implying and the questions it's raising, it can't have a true ending, just a stopping point for when the writers decide they're done.
Yes, yes they can. Themes don’t need a finite conclusion. What an asinine thing to say. Themes are often broad.

What does it mean to be a good person? (The Good Place)

Your actions do affect others and trying to do better doesn’t mean your past mistakes go away and trauma is often a cycle, also Hollywood culture is toxic. (Bojack Horseman)

There are different levels of privilege and not everyone is handed the same opportunity also the American prison system is shit (Orange is the new Black)












Self-improvement, by itself, cannot have a true ending, otherwise every single victory in the entire show could've been the ending because there's no greater strife occurring.
Themes=/= endings. The ending should tie to the theme but they’re not the same thing. This is just really laughably bad media criticism


The difference between a good ending and a bad ending is that you can't keep the story going past a good ending, because there's no story left to tell, you said everything the story had to say.
By this logic the Star Wars movies are bad endings because they kept going. Also open endings are absolutely a thing? And sometimes an open ending is the best option depending on the story. This idea that every story needs an ending that locks everything shut is just a really narrow view on storytelling and really bad.

Grow? Goku never grows. He's the exact same person from the start of DB to the end of DBS (except dumber). This is the point I'm making and the one you guys I'm pretty sure are not getting on purpose, nothing changes.
Abed was clearly talking about Goku growing as a fighter. Seriously this isn’t hard.
The staggering irony here is that I'm always the one talking about how DB is a show about punching people in the face, and yet here when I'm trying to emphasize that fact to show that it's not conducive to endings, it's somehow being used against me lol
No, I think its your bad media criticism in general that’s being used against you. I don’t even mean Dragon Ball. Just statements like “themes should have a definitive ending or it’s not a theme”

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:34 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:56 pmThis is fun because I have done this before.

The Saiyan arc should go without saying because it leaves on a downer that doesn’t feel conclusive . Namely Yamucha, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu are dead. If the Saiyan arc had been the ending it would have felt weirdly tacked on. Toeiyama had an adequate end point with the 23rd Tenkaichi and then he introduced Goku’s son and that Goku and Piccolo are aliens and then uh half the fighters die, Piccolo’s home world having its own dragon balls and that’s it. No one seriously in the right mind would advocate for the Saiyan arc to be a good series ending because it clearly isn’t

For the Freeza arc, and I’ve argued this multiple times elsewhere, it’s only a good ending if you pretend the story doesn’t REALLY start until Raditz arrives on earth. Goku fulfilling a legend and stopping the tyrant that destroyed his home planet is neat and all but none of that stuff was even relevant until the Saiyan arc. This is why I felt Dragon Ball Kai gets it wrong by starting with the Bardock tv special as a prologue and quickly recapping the events of pre-Z Dragon Ball. It frames the narrative as “This is a story about an alien refugee who becomes his people’s last hope to avenge them” it sets up Goku vs Freeza as the ultimate endgame of the series and all that stuff with Goku growing up before finding out he’s a Saiyan? Yeah that stuff doesn’t really matter. Ending at Freeza is a good ending for “Dragon Ball Z” but not for Dragon Ball as a whole

And again, I apparently can’t stress this enough, the Cell arc is a terrible ending for the series unless you’re looking at it from the (completely wrong) mindset that Dragon Ball is Goku’s story and Dragon Ball Z is Gohan’s story. Because if Dragon Ball Z is Gohan’s story than the Cell arc would be the perfect ending because he comes into his own but that’s not it because Z is just a rebranding its all one larger story. And Gohan has not been the main character. He was prominent in his introductory arc like everyone else and then got pushed to the background up until the Cell Games. It didn’t suddenly become Gohan’s story and ending the series with “And now Gohan is the main hero but that’s the end of the story good night everyone!” would have felt hollow. We’re ending the series on a character taking over the position of earth’s protector from his dad when his dad never cared that much about protecting the earth?

The Boo arc ends full circle. Goku left home to get stronger and find stronger opponents on his way he met and was trained under several mentors. Now he is going to mentor his own student that will give him the big fight he’s been looking for. Oob also represents the “next generation” of fighters that Roshi had been talking about all the way back. It’s not the best ending, because as I’ve said a tiresome amount of times, the 23rd Budokai is a way better ending, but it is a significantly better ending than ending at the Saiyan, Freeza, or Cell arcs.
Finally. SUBSTANCE.

But I cannot possibly overstate how much I disagree with the central idea permeating all of your examples here that, essentially, Dragon Ball is never allowed to shift focus off of Goku or change mood at any time. As previously stated, I've said a hundred times that DB is a show about dudes punching other dudes in the face; that statement was made in reference to what DB is, not what it could've been and effectively so. Every character in DB has inklings of characteristics about them that could be used to build a more emotionally and intellectually impactful product, while still leaving room for a phenomenon like Super Broly which is true to the central spirit of the show and I continue to maintain is the high point of the entire franchise.

As this translates to endings, this is more or less reinforcing my point. If your argument is that DB can't do anything except resolve back to happy-go-lucky Goku doing the same thing he always does with the entire cast of warriors - a cast that has been completely intact for 30 actual years running with the only exception being Vegeta - emerging without a scratch, then at no point can there be a true ending. Your idea of an ending is just a jumping off point for the same content to pick up at a future date, an until-next-episode intermission. Let's phrase this another way. If the Buu saga hadn't been merely the ending of DBZ but rather the ending of the entire Dragon Ball franchise, what would your opinion of it have been? That no real change had occurred and nothing of consequence actually happened? That DB's curtain call had exactly zero emotional weight to it, invoking no sense of true completion? What I am saying is that to top off a story, it has to feel like the end of a journey - and Goku's journey, by definition, never ends. So if we do as you say and never change the formula, there will never be a good ending to DB, only false endings in the form of pauses while the production regroups.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:34 am

By this same logic, endings that are non-linear are also bad by default. Take the ending to, say, Citizen Kane. It's the exact same as the beginning of the movie, just with an additional piece of information. The story is told through flashbacks. The viewer develops an understanding of the theme as the movie goes on, and only fully at the very end. Nothing is even resolved by the end; all we learn is why the main character was the way he was. Yet thematically, that unresolved ending is what works best by far for that story.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:36 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:02 am Then why the hell did you use the original Star Wars trilogy as an example of a good ending earlier? Clearly you can keep going past a good ending. Like, what?
First of all, the second trilogy was a prequel. Thanks for being really dense about it though.

Secondly...

Because the next two trilogies were awful. Whoa. Whodathunkit.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:36 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:02 am Then why the hell did you use the original Star Wars trilogy as an example of a good ending earlier? Clearly you can keep going past a good ending. Like, what?
First of all, the second trilogy was a prequel. Thanks for being really dense about it though.

Secondly...

Because the next two trilogies were awful. Whoa. Whodathunkit.
Whether or not you like them doesn't mean they don't exist, so that's irrelevant here. You're the one who's being dense. And they still had endings. You're making less and less sense the longer this goes on.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:42 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:26 amYour actions do affect others and trying to do better doesn’t mean your past mistakes go away and trauma is often a cycle, also Hollywood culture is toxic. (Bojack Horseman)
I haven't watched the other two shows but I'm gonna go ahead and stop you right here because wtf are you talking about right now

Bojack Horseman has a definitive ending - his mistakes caught up with him and despite his good intentions, the only way he was able to get healthy was by leaving behind the people that he cared the most about because they were anchors to his past and his relationships with them were manifestations of the most toxic parts of his personality. That the loneliness was the most healing thing for him was sheer irony.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:43 am

Dragon Ball can’t have a good ending because it kept going


Star Wars had a great ending. But it kept going but that doesn’t count because the sequels suck.


The inconsistent logic being applied is truly inspiring at this point.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:45 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 am Whether or not you like them doesn't mean they don't exist, so that's irrelevant here. You're the one who's being dense. And they still had endings. You're making less and less sense the longer this goes on.
Okay, I need to know right now, are you fucking with me at this point?

I can go write a fanfic right now about the events occurring after the ending of Saving Private Ryan, that it exists means absolutely nothing. It would be dogshit because the story of Captain Hartman and Private Ryan has already been told.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:51 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:45 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:38 am Whether or not you like them doesn't mean they don't exist, so that's irrelevant here. You're the one who's being dense. And they still had endings. You're making less and less sense the longer this goes on.
Okay, I need to know right now, are you fucking with me at this point?

I can go write a fanfic right now about the events occurring after the ending of Saving Private Ryan, that it exists means absolutely nothing. It would be dogshit because the story of Captain Hartman and Private Ryan has already been told.
I'm not going to try to make sense of anything else you say on this subject from now on. You're applying fallacies based on your personal feelings on endings, so we're clear on that at least. :?
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:01 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:42 am

Bojack Horseman has a definitive ending - his mistakes caught up with him and despite his good intentions, the only way he was able to get healthy was by leaving behind the people that he cared the most about because they were anchors to his past and his relationships with them were manifestations of the most toxic parts of his personality. That the loneliness was the most healing thing for him was sheer irony.

Bojack Horseman had a great fantastic ending. Maybe my favorite series finale of all time. But definitive? No.


We have no reason to believe that Bojack is going to be a better person and fix his life. We’re given optimism but it’s just as likely he’ll fall back on old habits. He didn’t get healthy (and it would be super unrealistic if he suddenly had) he’s just showing that he’s trying to do better and take life one step at a time. The three main characters he was co-dependent on show they moved on and interact with him on amiable terms (with Diane being the only one to make it clear they’ll likely never speak again) there is no “And now Bojack was magically a good person who won’t do anything toxic anymore” because that would have made no goddamn sense. It’s almost like endings don’t need to be definitive…


But also my point was the theme of the series doesn’t require a closed ending anymore than Dragon Ball’s.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:15 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:34 am .

But I cannot possibly overstate how much I disagree with the central idea permeating all of your examples here that, essentially, Dragon Ball is never allowed to shift focus off of Goku or change mood at any time.
But that isn’t at all the central idea in any of my explanations. Even in the Cell saga THE ONE EXAMPLE WHERE MAIN CHARACTER STATUS IS BROUGHT UP, my stated problem is “You can’t just end the story on and now Gohan is the main character but not really because that’s the end of the story” if Toriyama had decided to stick with Gohan being the main character after Cell that would be fine. But to end the story at “Now Gohan is main” ? Nah that’s a terrible ending.
If your argument is that DB can't do anything except resolve back to happy-go-lucky Goku doing the same thing he always does with the entire cast of warriors - a cast that has been completely intact for 30 actual years running with the only exception being Vegeta - emerging without a scratch, then at no point can there be a true ending
Not even close to my argument. Let me make it easy for you

Saiyan arc- Not a good ending because it sets itself up resolve its loose ends at a later arc and isn’t a whole story

Freeza arc- Not a good series ending because it only resolves plot threads issued in the previous arc and doesn’t tie to the series as a whole

Cell arc- Not a good ending because it sets up a new main character that hasn’t been terribly relevant for a while. It can be the start of a new beginning but it can’t function as an ending.


. Your idea of an ending is just a jumping off point for the same content to pick up at a future date, an until-next-episode intermission
Jeezus how bad can someone’s reading comprehension be? Seriously how that became your takeaway is anyone’s guess.

Let's phrase this another way. If the Buu saga hadn't been merely the ending of DBZ but rather the ending of the entire Dragon Ball franchise, what would your opinion of it have been?
The exact same opinion I’ve given since the beginning.



. So if we do as you say and never change the formula, there will never be a good ending to DB, only false endings in the form of pauses while the production regroups.

Never said anything about how you can’t change the formula. Christ this is embarrassing.

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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:23 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:51 amI'm not going to try to make sense of anything else you say on this subject from now on. You're applying fallacies based on your personal feelings on endings, so we're clear on that at least. :?
k
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:01 amBojack Horseman had a great fantastic ending. Maybe my favorite series finale of all time. But definitive? No.


We have no reason to believe that Bojack is going to be a better person and fix his life. We’re given optimism but it’s just as likely he’ll fall back on old habits. He didn’t get healthy (and it would be super unrealistic if he suddenly had) he’s just showing that he’s trying to do better and take life one step at a time. The three main characters he was co-dependent on show they moved on and interact with him on amiable terms (with Diane being the only one to make it clear they’ll likely never speak again) there is no “And now Bojack was magically a good person who won’t do anything toxic anymore” because that would have made no goddamn sense. It’s almost like endings don’t need to be definitive…


But also my point was the theme of the series doesn’t require a closed ending anymore than Dragon Ball’s.
Speculation on what happens after the finale isn't the point. The story of the series of Bojack Horseman is Bojack's struggle with mental illness, addiction, and self-hatred. The show makes it clear - because that was its theme - that these issues are essentially incurable and that those characteristics aren't a tumor you can exercise but parts of you that you have to manage in order to get by. We saw his broken home, we saw his toxic self-hating attitude, we saw him jump in and out of bed with everything that moved, we saw his alcoholism, we saw him try to cultivate several different types of relationships (lover, father, brother, mentor, etc.) and fail at all of them because he hadn't addressed his own issues, we saw him fail to get closure with several important people. He ended up losing his friends, going to jail, and almost dying. What the series wanted to explore was explored, and in that sense the journey ended, there was arguably nothing left to investigate as to why Bojack was the way he was. The "why" was established, the "what" is not relevant at that juncture. That IS a definitive ending.
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Re: What would make a good ending for the series?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:46 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:15 am But that isn’t at all the central idea in any of my explanations. Even in the Cell saga THE ONE EXAMPLE WHERE MAIN CHARACTER STATUS IS BROUGHT UP, my stated problem is “You can’t just end the story on and now Gohan is the main character but not really because that’s the end of the story” if Toriyama had decided to stick with Gohan being the main character after Cell that would be fine. But to end the story at “Now Gohan is main” ? Nah that’s a terrible ending.
Gohan's potential was a point of focus since the very beginning of DBZ and you're calling it "not terribly relevant"? Yes, you absolutely could've made Gohan the main character at that point. That would've been a suitable ending for DBZ and made for a great segue into a new story. How is the passing of the torch not an appropriate plot device for DB? Gohan can't be the main character now because he wasn't made the main character already? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.
Not even close to my argument. Let me make it easy for you

Saiyan arc- Not a good ending because it sets itself up resolve its loose ends at a later arc and isn’t a whole story
If that was the ending, it obviously would not have the loose plot threads, come on dude. We're talking about Goku vs. Vegeta as the finale of the series. Tell me why that would be an inappropriate note to end on. Because it's a "downer"? Remember how I said you're not letting DB change?
Freeza arc- Not a good series ending because it only resolves plot threads issued in the previous arc and doesn’t tie to the series as a whole
It's a whole differently branded series with a completely new plot direction. How is this a serious objection?
Cell arc- Not a good ending because it sets up a new main character that hasn’t been terribly relevant for a while. It can be the start of a new beginning but it can’t function as an ending.
Why are you looking at the ending as a mechanical device? It's a moment of emotional transfer, not of dry practicality. Seriously.
Jeezus how bad can someone’s reading comprehension be? Seriously how that became your takeaway is anyone’s guess.
I'm sorry you don't like hearing what you said read back to you.
Never said anything about how you can’t change the formula. Christ this is embarrassing.
Then you wouldn't have objected to the Cell saga ending.
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