What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Yuji » Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:18 am

I like how the "looks weak but is actually strong" trope was getting so overused that Toriyama felt the need to subvert himself with Monaka.

I also like how "friendship power ups" are never actually the key to anything and almost every time just end up screwing shit even further. Goku and Gohan almost doomed themselves and everyone because of their transformations and Gohan's other rage boosts never amount to anything substantial.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:24 pm

How Goku can never defeat the antagonists on his own, in Super. This makes Goku fanboys salty but I personally really like it, it makes the plot much more unpredictable and spicy instead of that bore that is GT where you know that Goku is going to get the W on the villain somehow. You can definitely tell which is the series that Toriyama wrote 8)

He lost against Beerus and was spared out of pity/respect.
He lost against Golden Frieza and was saved by Whis' time travel rewind.
He conceded against Hit and it was Monaka who got the W.
He could never beat Black and Zamasu (they fused), he could not defeat Fused Zamasu and had to be saved by Future Trunks and then bailed out by Grand Zeno.
He could not defeat Jiren because UI ran out and had to be saved by Android 17 and Frieza.
He could not defeat Broly and needed to fuse with Vegeta, Gogeta still doesn't get a W technically because Broly is saved at the last moment by the wish.

Moro is the only antagonist that he defeated the old-fashioned way, with a clean W (sure he got the energy from other people, but it was the same vs. Kid Buu and people still give that W to Goku).

So this is a very interesting plot device which is very prevalent in Super, it is incredibly fascinating how Goku keeps getting Ls and needs to be saved by other people to win. It definitely makes the story more interesting because you never know what is going to happen in the end!

And at the same time it helps give more relevance to other characters. Like how Whis got a hype boost when he displayed that time travel rewind ability. Or how Monaka technically got the W vs. Hit. Or how Grand Zeno displayed on-screen his full powers that were hinted at throughout the arc. Or how 17 and Frieza got the spotlight at the end of the ToP and 17 won. Etc. etc. etc.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:50 pm

Goku literally had help in beating almost everyone he’s ever faced accept King Piccolo, Ma-Junior, The RRA and Freeza on Namek and even then he still got some assistance in creating a diversion for the Spirit Bomb. Also not to mention some henchmen in Nappa, Yakon, Jiece, Burter and Recoome.

Goku deus ex machina winning the day if anything is a trope of the movies ( referring to Z Movies 1-13) at best and a gross exaggeration at worst.

In GT, Oob, Supreme Kai and then ultimately everybody else helped him back Baby into a corner so he flee and Goku delt the killing blow, 18 assisted in helping him beat Super 17 and literally everyone in the universe helped him beat Shenron.
Last edited by goku the krump dancer on Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:52 pm

And then when Ten humiliates him during their match, Tao brings out a weapon even after being disqualified, with the Crane Hermit cackling like a nut in the audience.
Meant to say Tao was disqualified because of the weapon.

I also wouldn't call Toriyama subverting expectations "trolling." I think that gives undue credit to the fans as though the writer is only doing something to go against what the fans expect or want. Say what you will about Last Jedi, but I genuinely believe Rian made decisions he thought were cool for Star Wars, and even if I don't love the movie, I can respect him for going with his gut as a filmmaker.
Well, Toriyama doesn't shy away from glorifying Goku, either. Just look at Goku throughout the entire Red Ribbon Army arc. Sure, they were not super-powered beings (apart from the Pirate Robot, androids, Blue, and Tao), but he still plowed his way through an entire army of grown adults and seemed to grow stronger in doing so. And then the Piccolo Daimao arc, where he kills his arch foe in an extreme desperation move. And even if he didn't kill Freeza on Namek, he utterly dominated him once becoming a Super Saiyan, even moreso in the manga.

I do like when Goku loses or when his victories are a team effort though. I definitely consider him defeating Kid Boo a collective effort; he was just the one to deal the killing blow, but it was powered by everyone on Earth. My favorite example is Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz, where Goku had to die as well to defeat him.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:50 pm Goku literally had help in beating almost everyone he’s ever faced accept King Piccolo, Ma-Junior, The RRA and Freeza on Namek and even then he still got some assistance in creating a diversion for the Spirit Bomb. Also not to mention some henchmen in Nappa, Yakon, Jiece, Burter and Recoome.

Goku deus ex machina winning the day if anything is a trope of the movies ( referring to Z Movies 1-13) at best and a gross exaggeration at worst.
Well said.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:56 pm

You probably meant to say the Red Ribbon Army WASNT superpowered but I agree with you.
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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:59 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:56 pm You probably meant to say the Red Ribbon Army WASNT superpowered but I agree with you.
You are correct. I edited it.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by dva_raza » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:04 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:24 pm How Goku can never defeat the antagonists on his own, in Super. This makes Goku fanboys salty but I personally really like it, it makes the plot much more unpredictable and spicy instead of that bore that is GT where you know that Goku is going to get the W on the villain somehow. You can definitely tell which is the series that Toriyama wrote 8)
Who/where are these "salty Goku fanboys" you speak of? It's funny because all I ever see are comments from Vegeta fanboys complaining Goku always gets the win even when he obviously doesn't.

To me the fact that Goku never gets to show off and always has to use either team work or the same ol' genki dama, kinda starts to get predictable and bland too

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:57 pm

dva_raza wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:04 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:24 pm How Goku can never defeat the antagonists on his own, in Super. This makes Goku fanboys salty but I personally really like it, it makes the plot much more unpredictable and spicy instead of that bore that is GT where you know that Goku is going to get the W on the villain somehow. You can definitely tell which is the series that Toriyama wrote 8)
Who/where are these "salty Goku fanboys" you speak of? It's funny because all I ever see are comments from Vegeta fanboys complaining Goku always gets the win even when he obviously doesn't.

To me the fact that Goku never gets to show off and always has to use either team work or the same ol' genki dama, kinda starts to get predictable and bland too
Like any story telling device sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Tournament of Power I'd say it worked. On the other hand, Zamasu I think was a huge failure in storytelling. Not just because they bailed out and hit a cheat button, but because Trunks lost his entire universe and they just travel to a new timeline like it's nothing playing happy go lucky music.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by dva_raza » Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:32 pm

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:57 pm
dva_raza wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:04 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:24 pm How Goku can never defeat the antagonists on his own, in Super. This makes Goku fanboys salty but I personally really like it, it makes the plot much more unpredictable and spicy instead of that bore that is GT where you know that Goku is going to get the W on the villain somehow. You can definitely tell which is the series that Toriyama wrote 8)
Who/where are these "salty Goku fanboys" you speak of? It's funny because all I ever see are comments from Vegeta fanboys complaining Goku always gets the win even when he obviously doesn't.

To me the fact that Goku never gets to show off and always has to use either team work or the same ol' genki dama, kinda starts to get predictable and bland too
Like any story telling device sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Tournament of Power I'd say it worked. On the other hand, Zamasu I think was a huge failure in storytelling. Not just because they bailed out and hit a cheat button, but because Trunks lost his entire universe and they just travel to a new timeline like it's nothing playing happy go lucky music.
Agreed. That was absolutely awsome and it worked perfectly.

I personally don't feel affected by how or how often Goku wins. I just wanted to point out that not ever letting a main character win can be exactly as predictable/unspicy as if he was always made to win.
And Goku hasn’t won against anybody since Frieza in Namek (by his own, without having to use other people's energy). At this point what would be "spicy" is to actually have him win directly against somebody, that would be unpredictable for me.
Last edited by dva_raza on Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:57 pm

For me it all depends more on the story than any individual character getting a W. If the natural, earned result of a conflict is a specific character getting a W (ie. Goku vs Piccolo Daimao or Freeza, Trunks vs Freeza, or Gohan vs Cell), I'm happy. If the earned result is a team victory (ie. Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz; Goku, Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe vs Vegeta; Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Satan, and people of Earth vs Kid Boo) I'm happy. In those instances, either result felt fully earned to me because of the story's direction. Goku solo-ing Boo, Raditz, or Vegeta wouldn't have been all that satisfying.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Peach » Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:59 pm

I love when he actually has Goku lose.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:27 am

Peach wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:59 pm I love when he actually has Goku lose.
Which happens more than you'd think. His losses in the 21st and 22nd Budokai served to fuel his mindset and further growth as a martial artist. He lost embarrassingly to Tao initially. He lost badly to Piccolo Daimao initially. Popo made him look like a joke upon their first meeting. Technically, he individually "lost" to Raditz since he had to die to take him down. And individually he lost both times to Vegeta (2nd time not being "legit," but for the purpose of that fight he was knocked out, cheap shot or not. Of course, it's later revealed he wasn't serious during this fight, but I'm mainly talking about the fight itself). He lost to Ginyu. And he would have lost his match with Cell had it kept going (and obviously ended up being killed by Cell anyway).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:04 am

What people here are ignoring is that in DBZ it's always Goku or anyway another Z fighter who gets the final kill and looks like the "hero who saves the day", this is never the case in Super aside from the Moro arc.

You can't compare Goku beating Frieza on Namek or Gohan killing Cell or Goku killing Majin Buu to the story arcs of Super, because in Super there is always one more plot twist that doesn't make "victory" so straightforward and clean/rewarding. They don't even win in the FT arc and actually fail to protect the Cosmos, Goku also loses in BoG and gets spared out of pity and because Beerus still wanted a rematch. They lost in RoF if it wasn't for Whis' rewind and the victory feels hollow because Goku has to rush it and steal the kill from Vegeta. They lost in U6 and were lucky Hit had decency and forfeited. In the ToP, the situation was so critical that Goku and Frieza were literally forced to work together.

Super is extremely innovative and unique in this and not enough people here are giving credit where it's due.

If Super was straightforward and simple like DBZ, Trunks would have killed Zamasu, Vegeta would have killed Frieza, MUI Goku would have defeated Jiren, Kaioken Goku would have defeated Hit, etc. etc. etc.

Which is probably how the fanboys of Goku and Vegeta would have written DBS to be honest, but they missed the key message of this show. This show is all about the Gods and how they are a new realm of power, so it can't be a mortal who saves the day in DBS. There will always beDivine Intervention in some way.

And while admittedly Goku got the final kill on Moro, the bulk of the power in the weird Spirit Bomb/avatar thing came from Uub's God Energy :think:

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:15 am

This still isn't something unique to Super. The defeats of Raditz and later Vegeta in the Saiyan arc were entirely team efforts that also managed to further significant character development. Goku and Freeza teaming up in Super (admittedly an awesome moment) happened because it looked cool seeing these enemies team up, not to further any character development. It didn't even showcase that the two were willing to work together, because technically Freeza being on the team already showed us that. Don't get me wrong; I think it's cool that Super shows characters teaming up to win, but it wasn't invented there.

Even when fights in Z became more straightforward, the manner of which the victories unfolded was never obvious, and it usually involved some more plot progression to get there in the midst of the battle.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:28 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:15 am This still isn't something unique to Super. The defeats of Raditz and later Vegeta in the Saiyan arc were entirely team efforts that also managed to further significant character development. Goku and Freeza teaming up in Super (admittedly an awesome moment) happened because it looked cool seeing these enemies team up, not to further any character development. It didn't even showcase that the two were willing to work together, because technically Freeza being on the team already showed us that. Don't get me wrong; I think it's cool that Super shows characters teaming up to win, but it wasn't invented there.

Even when fights in Z became more straightforward, the manner of which the victories unfolded was never obvious, and it usually involved some more plot progression to get there in the midst of the battle.
And I acknowledged that some fights in DBZ ended with a team effort (not all though, Goku beat and basically killed Frieza on his own, the rest of the team had already left Namek or died). But even then it was still kept within the group of the "Z Fighters", with Piccolo (already part of Goku's group) killing Raditz and Krillin/Yajirobe/Gohan (also part of Goku's group) finishing off Vegeta.

With Super, the vast majority of the time the Z Fighters by themselves cannot win. In BoG they all lost and were spared by Beerus, even after they (the Saiyans) got together for the God Ritual. In RoF they lost and had to be bailed out by an Angel. In U6 they were lucky that Monaka was there on the group and Goku wasn't the last contestant; if they didn't have another body to throw into the ring, U7 would have lost the tournament when Goku conceded. In FT they pretty much lost everything and had to be bailed out by Zeno. And in the ToP they were lucky Frieza was there (Frieza is not part of Goku's group and fought with him only to be restored to life after the Tournament).

The take-away here is that The Z Fighters can never win on their own in Super, they are too weak to do so against Super antagonists. They always need the Gods for help and it's even stated by Beerus that they have become complacent, constantly relying on the Gods to bail them out (so this is a plot point in the series).

This is also an interesting subversion, because in DBZ the Gods (Supreme Kai) were useless, but in Super they bailed out the Z Fighters multiple times.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:16 am

I like how the final fight is never straightforward, the newfound power always encounters a new obstacle, giving the villain a break and extending the fight a little longer, muddying the waters of what seemed to be a clean W.

SS vs 100% Freeza, SS2 Gohan being a dick, Grade 2 Vegeta also being a dick, SS3 being shit, Ultimate Gohan being a dick, SS3 Gotenks being a dick. SSB having drawbacks, Vegito Blue's time limit, UI's time limit, underestimating the villain after receiving a power up enough to win -or thinking they've won- is also common...

The exact opposite of what happens in the Z movies.

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by BeaBumby » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:54 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:00 pm Like any storyteller, Akira Toriyama has certain storytelling devices that he employs to tell his story, and these become evident the further you get into his original manga. Which example (of any trope) sticks out to you as one of your favorite uses of a trope? For me, it's the idea that there are always bigger fish in the sea, and I don't think it was more effectively handled than with the arrival of Raditz and the discovery of Goku's Saiyan heritage. This is only effective when you look at the Raditz arc as what it's meant to be: the direct continuation to Goku being named the Strongest Under the Heavens after defeating Piccolo Jr. at the 23rd Budokai.

Goku: Strongest Under the Heavens

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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by BeaBumby » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:56 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:54 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:00 pm Like any storyteller, Akira Toriyama has certain storytelling devices that he employs to tell his story, and these become evident the further you get into his original manga. Which example (of any trope) sticks out to you as one of your favorite uses of a trope? For me, it's the idea that there are always bigger fish in the sea, and I don't think it was more effectively handled than with the arrival of Raditz and the discovery of Goku's Saiyan heritage. This is only effective when you look at the Raditz arc as what it's meant to be: the direct continuation to Goku being named the Strongest Under the Heavens after defeating Piccolo Jr. at the 23rd Budokai.

Goku: Strongest Under the Heavens

Image
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:00 pm
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Re: What Is Your Favorite Example of a Storytelling Device Toriyama Uses?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:57 pm

It is a nice picture of the nostalgic crew. Probably my favorite version of the Dragon Team (this or early Z with Piccolo and Gohan added).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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