Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:51 pm

KBABZ wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:39 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:18 pm I gotta say, I hate the original colours of EoZ Goku.
Are you referring to the anime's cyan shirt or the manga's green shirt?
The green shirt, I can't stand the combination he got in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:50 pm

KBABZ wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:51 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:52 pm Has the Path to Power movie already been covered earlier, or is it going to be included with GT? Just wondering.
It'll be covered in GT. It's the one I'm looking forward to the most, to the point that I'll watch it multiple times: once in Japanese and again in English.

Speaking of which, the reason why End of Z's Trivia is so freaking long is that, in a first, I decided to not only read the manga as normal (and both the original and revised endings, of course), but also watch the episodes, TWICE: once in its original Z form in Japanese, and a second time watching Funimation's dub of The Final Chapters (with Japanese subs as backup).
Glad to hear it! From memory, that's one of my favorite Dragon Ball films. Also, I agree with Koitsukai that I'm not a fan of Goku's End of Z outfit colors in the manga. Looks much better in the anime with the cyan shirt and green pants.

Sidenote: I like that Bulma here is still depicted as taller than Vegeta.

Image
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:12 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:51 pm
KBABZ wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:39 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:18 pm I gotta say, I hate the original colours of EoZ Goku.
Are you referring to the anime's cyan shirt or the manga's green shirt?
The green shirt, I can't stand the combination he got in the manga.
Agreed. It was probably done to help the transition to GT a bit, but it's abjectly inaccurate to the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:19 am

Is that color scheme of Goku's gi anywhere else besides the tankobon 42 cover?
I remember being really surprised by those colors coming from Toriyama when I bought the original tankobons in Japanese, not only because I was familiar with the Z version before, but even in the manga itself, he has different boots and the colored version from Kanzenban that probably comes from the original Jump publication, suggests that both the top and pants have a same color, which in the limited pallete can't be taken for granted.

But, altough it kinda fits the overall tone of the image, it is really weird, as Toriyama was usually going for more contrast even with more grounded colours and this conrete picture gives the vibes of these Chinese knock-off toys, getting mixed colours and weirp pallete swaps.

Also, the cover page of the last chapter, also coming from Toriyama gives it actually a color scheme that we see in Z, though being darker with acrylics, which makes it more consistent with the manga pages itself and also being actually true to the anime.
Image
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-519/

Saw this picture first time on a toy package in Germany around 2000s and many times over.
What was first? The actual design for the manga or the cover image of Tankobon?

In the end, it might turn out that we are actually looking at two different sets of Goku's clothing, the same way, how in Z he has the belt tied and then stashed around the waist, different boots, different emblems...
Sidenote: and Shenron is Blue here :lol: But is it Shenron? We actually get blue dragon as a mascot that goes along with the series' logos, so maybe, this is the Dragon Ball mascot and different dragon from actual Shenron in the story itself, that represents the series? Ha, discuss! 8)
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:14 am

I quite like the EoZ gi personally, it was also a nice nod back to blue Goku wore in the beginning. I remember being disappointed that in GT Goku was turned back into a kid because seeing him as an adult wearing a new gi, especially during fight scenes would be a welcome change. Even Resurrection F giving him a new orange gi felt refreshing until they reverted back to the classic orange and blue from Future Trunks onwards, likely for merchandising reasons. I hope if we ever get past EoZ in Super we will see more of the blue gi.

These episodes and movie were all great though. It was nice to see one more Tenkaichi Budokai for old times sake, even if it was short lived. Wrath of the Dragon also had one of the best, if not the best story of any of the movies, and an iconic shot of the Dragon Fist to go with it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:31 am

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:19 am Also, the cover page of the last chapter, also coming from Toriyama gives it actually a color scheme that we see in Z, though being darker with acrylics.
Image
I see that as a dark green on both personally. The final chapter was in limited color, BUT Goku was drawn in with greys (his usual replacement for green, like with Piccolo), and in the two un-inked chapters before his pants were grey and his shirt black. So that for me is enough to suggest that Toriyama's intended End of Z look was meant to be green.

THAT SAID, End of Z didn't occur in the anime for half a year after it did in the manga. Considering Toriyama was helping a bit on GT, it's possible that he changed these colours for EoZ Goku's character design. THAT THAT SAID, over the years Toriyama has favoured green as Goku's start/end colours in his artwork. Going over the A Visual History book, after 1996 it's extremely rare that Toriyama depicts Goku in the original blue/orange gi for the pre-21st Tournament and post-Boo periods. It appears as early as Daizenshuu #1 (released soo after the final manga Chapter) and as late as 2013!

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:51 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:14 am I quite like the EoZ gi personally, it was also a nice nod back to blue Goku wore in the beginning. I remember being disappointed that in GT Goku was turned back into a kid because seeing him as an adult wearing a new gi, especially during fight scenes would be a welcome change. Even Resurrection F giving him a new orange gi felt refreshing until they reverted back to the classic orange and blue from Future Trunks onwards, likely for merchandising reasons. I hope if we ever get past EoZ in Super we will see more of the blue gi.

These episodes and movie were all great though. It was nice to see one more Tenkaichi Budokai for old times sake, even if it was short lived. Wrath of the Dragon also had one of the best, if not the best story of any of the movies, and an iconic shot of the Dragon Fist to go with it.
My thoughts exactly! Reason why I loved the EOZ gi in Budokai 3 and actual adult GT Goku in Final Bout! :D
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:41 am

This might be off-topic, so I apologize in advance, but it also might be on-topic, since it's a thread about the DB manga and anime, maybe I can get an answer?

Here goes, the manga that I own (and old one) has some chapters with darker pages, like they were coloured and look like prints. Most pages and chapters are normal, like the DBS manga you can read online, but others seem to be like coloured black-n-white pages. Is this normal? is the manga used for the rewatch like this too?
The first image looks like a photocopy, the second one looks like a regular manga panel. Maybe not the best examples, but it was the chapter that I had at hand.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:43 am

Interesting how Movie 13 clearly has Gohan "transform" into Mystic, while GT seems to disregard it altogether. I wonder what the thought process behind taking the form off him was. I don't really buy that "Toei forgot". After all Final Bout features Mystic Gohan. Perhaps they really just didn't want anyone thinking he was stronger than Goku.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:50 pm Sidenote: I like that Bulma here is still depicted as taller than Vegeta.
img]https://i.imgur.com/hSH5PyP.png[/img]
This reminds me of that filler dream sequence on Namek, where Bulma dreams Vegeta is coming after her for the Dragon Ball. It's funny because he's supposed to be menacing, but he's clearly shorter than her in that scene, even more so because he was drawn shorter in general at that point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:53 am

90sDBZ wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:43 am Interesting how Movie 13 clearly has Gohan "transform" into Mystic, while GT seems to disregard it altogether. I wonder what the thought process behind taking the form off him was. I don't really buy that "Toei forgot". After all Final Bout features Mystic Gohan. Perhaps they really just didn't want anyone thinking he was stronger than Goku.
One of the writers confirmed that Gohan quit fighting, so he "lost" his form, he was portrayed as a scholar and a family man for most of the show. They were planning on bringing the Super-Gohan back by the S-17 arc, but that was scrapped. So the thought process behind it was that his new lifestyle made him lose access to it, so he only had SS.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:09 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:41 am This might be off-topic, so I apologize in advance, but it also might be on-topic, since it's a thread about the DB manga and anime, maybe I can get an answer?

Here goes, the manga that I own (and old one) has some chapters with darker pages, like they were coloured and look like prints. Most pages and chapters are normal, like the DBS manga you can read online, but others seem to be like coloured black-n-white pages. Is this normal? is the manga used for the rewatch like this too?
The first image looks like a photocopy, the second one looks like a regular manga panel. Maybe not the best examples, but it was the chapter that I had at hand.
The greyscale ones were originally inked in by Toriyama (either with a full colour palette, or a limited one of red and grey). This was somewhat common at the start, but as time went on they became almost non-existant. To save on print costs, most versions of the manga are in greyscale, which can look okay to honestly pretty terrible in the case of Chapter 1.

The ViZBIGs have them in color so that's probably the best way to go about getting them in colour, and I THINK that's the only time the original ending has been printed in colour outside of the Digest Edition and the original Shonen Jump release.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:29 am

KBABZ wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:09 am
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:41 am This might be off-topic, so I apologize in advance, but it also might be on-topic, since it's a thread about the DB manga and anime, maybe I can get an answer?

Here goes, the manga that I own (and old one) has some chapters with darker pages, like they were coloured and look like prints. Most pages and chapters are normal, like the DBS manga you can read online, but others seem to be like coloured black-n-white pages. Is this normal? is the manga used for the rewatch like this too?
The first image looks like a photocopy, the second one looks like a regular manga panel. Maybe not the best examples, but it was the chapter that I had at hand.
The greyscale ones were originally inked in by Toriyama (either with a full colour palette, or a limited one of red and grey). This was somewhat common at the start, but as time went on they became almost non-existant. To save on print costs, most versions of the manga are in greyscale, which can look okay to honestly pretty terrible in the case of Chapter 1.

The ViZBIGs have them in color so that's probably the best way to go about getting them in colour, and I THINK that's the only time the original ending has been printed in colour outside of the Digest Edition and the original Shonen Jump release.
Thanks a lot, so I have a pretty old copy lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:29 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:29 am Thanks a lot, so I have a pretty old copy lol
Not really. Most versions of Dragon Ball will be presented that way, and when you have 42 volumes to print, it's a no-brainer. The ViZ Bigs and Kanzenban are really the only two options available to get the original inks, everything else is black and white or Full Colour. Heck I got ViZ's Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z box sets of the manga and it was in black in white despite being a reissue from just a few years ago.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:10 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:43 am Interesting how Movie 13 clearly has Gohan "transform" into Mystic, while GT seems to disregard it altogether. I wonder what the thought process behind taking the form off him was. I don't really buy that "Toei forgot". After all Final Bout features Mystic Gohan. Perhaps they really just didn't want anyone thinking he was stronger than Goku.
TOEI mightn't have forgot, but it's possible Toriyama did. Even though Toriyama didn't write GT he has said he was given the freedom to check TOEI's stories and offer his advice so it's not out of the question despite not writing the stories Toriyama still had a lot of influence in GT. The fact that Toriyama doesn't think these things through like us fans and has said he makes things up as he goes along also doesn't help.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:39 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:10 pm TOEI mightn't have forgot, but it's possible Toriyama did. Even though Toriyama didn't write GT he has said he was given the freedom to check TOEI's stories and offer his advice so it's not out of the question despite not writing the stories Toriyama still had a lot of influence in GT. The fact that Toriyama doesn't think these things through like us fans and has said he makes things up as he goes along also doesn't help.
Given a statement I've read regarding Toriyama on his contributions to GT, I find this rather unlikely. It sounds like he was D O N E through exhaustion regarding writing and drawing and just wanted to rest like it was the end of Infinity War.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:32 pm

I’m pretty sure Toriyama’s contribution to GT begins and ends with the title and some character designs.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Xeogran » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:03 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:32 pm I’m pretty sure Toriyama’s contribution to GT begins and ends with the title and some character designs.
Not really, he designed some planets and their general themes (The Giant and Desert ones IIRC). Also the entire spaceship because he loves vehicles. As for Gohan, it's possible he may lost that form due to slacking? Earth was in peace time for a long time after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:45 pm

I'll leave this interview of Atsushi Maekawa who wrote several GT episodes, it might come in handy for the trivia of GT in the future. It addresses GT Gohan and the plans they had in mind for him, and also what happened to his ultimate form.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -story-qa/

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:24 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:45 pm I'll leave this interview of Atsushi Maekawa who wrote several GT episodes, it might come in handy for the trivia of GT in the future. It addresses GT Gohan and the plans they had in mind for him, and also what happened to his ultimate form.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -story-qa/
I'm aware of this interview. It's very insightful and will certainly factor into GT-related trivia. :)
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 101 - DBZ movie 13, episodes 289-291 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:47 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:53 am One of the writers confirmed that Gohan quit fighting, so he "lost" his form, he was portrayed as a scholar and a family man for most of the show. They were planning on bringing the Super-Gohan back by the S-17 arc, but that was scrapped. So the thought process behind it was that his new lifestyle made him lose access to it, so he only had SS.
So basically the same as in Super? Interesting, I don't think I'd heard that about GT Gohan before. Didn't the GT Perfect Files basically say the opposite though? That he trained and "re-unlocked" Super Saiyan, whatever that means. I remember a bunch of fans thinking he'd somehow surpassed Mystic, and was a "Mystic Super Saiyan" because of that quote.

I'm sure the Blue Water dub had a line from Vegeta that Gohan had trained. Goten and Trunks are complaining about having to go to space and ask why Gohan doesn't have to, to which Vegeta replies "he's not the one neglecting his training". I'm sure that line is in that dub, although I don't think it's in the Japanese version, at least not the exact line.

Honestly one of my biggest gripes with GT is how little they utilised Gohan. How badass would it have been if Baby had tried provoking him to turn Super Saiyan, only to discover that Gohan was Mystic and wouldn't transform like the others, making him much harder to enslave.

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